373 replies to this topic

[Corwin Vickers]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

If you are forced to look directly at your target in order to keep a lock, then you aren't really soaking.

You can twist to spread damage while keeping lock. You just need to get back on target within whatever the lock loss time frame is.


My original point was that LRMs are useless and need to be changed.

I still feel this to be true.

[Wolfways]

Corwin Vickers, on 02 April 2014 - 11:53 PM, said:

My original point was that LRMs are useless against decent players and need to be changed.

I still feel this to be true.

Fixed imo

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

Ah, so your answer is that you are the best shot in the game, but are being limited by the fact that you play on an old computer with crappy hardware.

That seems legit.

You still left off one of the biggest factors. Reading is not fundamental for you I guess.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

None of those excuses matter though.

The reason you haven't hit the skill cap, is because you aren't good enough. That's all it comes down to. That's the end of the story.

And this isn't an attack on your manhood or anything.. everything you describe here as to WHY you aren't the most awesome pilot in the game is totally reasonable. I'm in the same boat. I am nowhere CLOSE to the best gunner or pilot in the game, for the same reasons.. I'm a lot older than I was back when I played MW4.

But at the same time, I don't trivialize the skill of those pilots who are better than me. I don't pretend "oh, well this game is easy, and even though I'm not the best at it, those guys who are better aren't actually better, because they're better at something which is easy, and I totally could be better if I wanted to but I don't. Herpa derpa derp."

Trivializing the skill of players who are better than you isn't exactly a new thing on the internet, so it's not like I haven't seen folks do what you're trying to do.. But it's just as laughable every time.

Just an FYI.

I hit a man sized target in the head 7:10 times at 500M, with iron sights. Thats 70% I average a bit below that in game and can attribute it to old eyes and server lag. Aiming on a computer is not a skill. I do not hate bursting your bubble on that.

[Roland]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 April 2014 - 05:06 AM, said:

Aiming on a computer is not a skill. I do not hate bursting your bubble on that.

And yet there are tons of players who can do it better than you... I guess they're just lucky.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 03 April 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

And yet there are tons of players who can do it better than you... I guess they're just lucky.

If a 20% off perfect is bad... Well I have always been a B grade student. Attempts to embarrass me is pretty much pointless Roland. I self depervate on a daily basis, and have 6 years of Drama classes... Step up, or step off sir.

you don't need to be the best to know that something is easy.

[Karl Streiger]

Roland, on 03 April 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

And yet there are tons of players who can do it better than you... I guess they're just lucky.

He isn't wrong about that.
Considering the extreme v0 the relativ slow speed and size of the targets - i think you need as more skill in a WW 1 Aircraft computer game as in MWO.

Ok - i admit i have some serious issues with those high v0 - the AC 20 feels right - i hit my targets with better chance while using the slow firing AC 20 - even at 500m or more....
Reduce the v0 of all guns much more - and we can start to talk about "skill" -

don't get me wrong - i don't hit 100% of all shots not even 75% - but hey ammunition is cheap - CoF is fast - i don't have to bother about a missed shot like i have to - forexample in WoT - with > 10sec reloading time and each grenade costs money

Edited by Karl Streiger, 03 April 2014 - 05:22 AM.

[Roland]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 April 2014 - 05:19 AM, said:

If a 20% off perfect is bad... Well I have always been a B grade student. Attempts to embarrass me is pretty much pointless Roland. I self depervate on a daily basis, and have 6 years of Drama classes... Step up, or step off sir.

you don't need to be the best to know that something is easy.

It's not an attempt to embarass you when I point out that other players are better than you. It's merely a statement of obvious fact.

And the fact that other people are better than you at the game suggests that there actually is some degree of skill involved. That's what differentiates them from you.

Unless, as I suggested previously, you believe that you are equal in skill to the best players in the game, and that the only reason they appear to be better than you is through luck.

But if you think that, then you are deluding yourself.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 03 April 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

It's not an attempt to embarass you when I point out that other players are better than you. It's merely a statement of obvious fact.

And the fact that other people are better than you at the game suggests that there actually is some degree of skill involved. That's what differentiates them from you.

Unless, as I suggested previously, you believe that you are equal in skill to the best players in the game, and that the only reason they appear to be better than you is through luck.

But if you think that, then you are deluding yourself.

just cause SOME players are better than me, Doesn't mean I am wrong though Roland nor does it mean I am bad at the game. I am good. I am a Good shot in real life. Are there better at both than me?

Bruce Lee said, "For every mountain, there is a higher. For every fist there is a faster." I don't need to be the best in this game to know point and click is easy. If you think that way, then well that's on you.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 April 2014 - 05:31 AM.

[Roland]

I'm not saying you are bad at the game.

I'm pointing out that, since other players are better, there must be some degree of skill involved, which differentiates those players' performance from your own.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roland, on 03 April 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

I'm not saying you are bad at the game.

I'm pointing out that, since other players are better, there must be some degree of skill involved, which differentiates those players' performance from your own.

No you keep trying to make out like it's takes some kind of massive amount of skill to play this game. You might not be meaning too, but when you read your posts they are all holier than thou bull crap.

The best players in this game are not the best due to their "aiming skill".

[Roland]

The best players in the game are the best for various reasons, but it there are most certainly players whose gunnery skills are better than yours.

In not sure why that simple fact threatens you so badly.

Edited by Roland, 03 April 2014 - 05:37 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roland, on 03 April 2014 - 05:37 AM, said:

The best players in the game are the best for various reasons, but it there are most certainly players whose gunnery skills are better than yours.

In not sure why that simple fact threatens you so badly.

Like I said holier than thou bullcrap.

[Roland]

I'm not the one trying to pretend like the reason other people are better than me is derived from luck or hardware specs. There are people who are better shots than I am in game, because they are better gunners than me.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 03 April 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

I'm not the one trying to pretend like the reason other people are better than me is derived from luck or hardware specs. There are people who are better shots than I am in game, because they are better gunners than me.

Its better sharper reflexes that make someone better than me at video games. Those folks that are better gunner than you have all the same skills you do. Again good<Great but Easy=easy. Point and click is easy. If you're faster than me you are going to click before I do... and that is easy to accept for me.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 April 2014 - 06:16 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roland, on 03 April 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

I'm not the one trying to pretend like the reason other people are better than me is derived from luck or hardware specs. There are people who are better shots than I am in game, because they are better gunners than me.

I'm not saying I'm the best. I'm just saying this game isn't hard, and I could be in the top 10% of players easily if I applied myself.

I get that you have anger issues because you've died to LRM's. Calm it down son. Go play Star Citizen. Leave this "hard" game to the big boys.

[Eglar]

LRMs don't appear in competetive play because they are unreliable. If you get a map like Crimson, HPG, River City, LRM's just suck. That being said, the biggest difference in "skill usage" on comp. Play you have between let's say a Meta-Jumpsniper and a LRM Mech is:

Your drop commander tells you to move to the hill of Grid Charlie3, focus fire on target Bravo:
In an LRM boat, it would barely would make a difference wether you put a 1-month casual player, provided he can press R and knows that his LRMs won't fly through walls, or a Closed-Beta MWO veteran into the mech.
In the poptart build it would obviously make a huge difference.

And that is exactly what the difference for me is, in LRMs, when it comes to accuracy - you can be a bad player and your LRMs would still hit but you can be only that good.

Now let's compare statistical data of both weapons:

Spoiler

LRM 15 + Artimis (one of the most commonly used lrm weapons) vs the the PPC(Prolly what people would call meta)
Effective Range: 1000/540
Max Range: 1000/1080 (Decreased Damage)
Min Range: 180/90
Heat per Second: 1.2/2.5
Damage per Second: 3.9/2.5
Projectile Speed: 160/1500
Tonnage: 8(with artemis,W/O ammo)/7

LRM 15 + Artimis (one of the most commonly used lrm weapons) vs the the AC5 (Prolly what people would call meta)
Effective Range: 1000/620
Max Range: 1000/1700 (Decreased Damage)
Min Range: 180/None
Heat per Second: 1.2/0.7
Damage per Second: 3.9/3.0
Projectile Speed: 160/1300
Tonnage: 8(with artemis,W/O ammo)/8(w/o ammo)

And than there are people mentioning positions: You need to position yourself in any other mech too - in fact LRM boats have more options when it comes to positioning, because they can deliver both direct and indirect fire.
Here's an example:

You are on your LRM 60+Artimis HGN733 and I am on my HGN-733C with 2x PPC 2x AC5 but make it a VTR-DS if you want. We're both on Alpine Peaks at 500 Meters (effective range for all involved weapons) we both know how to torso-twist you to the right me to the left and start engaging each other.

Guess what? - You're probably going to win because you have a higher DPS, you can sustain more Heat and since you have artemis I am most likely to die before I can even get into the 180m range unless I make a skillshot and take out your left torso (that's like alpha your left torso 3 times in a row) or make a headshot.

I play LRMs myself in pugplay occasionally and can consistently get a average damage of 500 and pop a few 1000s. Having basically the same results with my metabuilds, with a average damage per match of 583.6 after the stats reset and after having played 400+ matches I can't really say that LRMs are that under-powered.

I find it amusing how people say that LRMS are supposed to counter Jumpsnipers. From my point of view LRMs just screw up everything but Jumpsnipers. Because you simply can't have a lock for long enough to make your missiles viable when I jumpsnipe from behind cover. In order to shoot, brawlers, well basically everything without Jumpjets have to leave cover for a way longer time, with 2 LRM boats that dude just lost at least 60 armor points...

Your barely 40% LRM accuracy only says that you're taking alot of indirect shots, without exactly knowing wether your missiles will hit or not, or how long your spotter can keep-up his target locked. And that you keep on shooting even after the target is virtually dead having 3-4 salvos hitting his corpse. I doubt you'd be that wasteful with your ammo when it came down to ballistics. - nothing wrong with that.

And than there is the range thing...yea you try to hit a moving target with your PPCs/AC5s on 800+ meters and tell me how it feels like and how often you can hit with your not even 18 alpha.

If anything, PGI should contribute their next "love" to brawlers.

Edited by Eglar, 03 April 2014 - 06:57 AM.

[Roland]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 April 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

Its better sharper reflexes that make someone better than me at video games. Those folks that are better gunner than you have all the same skills you do. Again good&lt;Great but Easy=easy. Point and click is easy. If you're faster than me you are going to click before I do... and that is easy to accept for me.

Better reflexes in a game constitutes being more skilled.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 03 April 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

Better reflexes in a game constitutes being more skilled.

Reflex can be honed Yes. But clicking a mouse...
you really want to justify clicking a mouse as "Skill"?
I used to be able to throw Shuriken all day long into a target the size of a human heart from 25'. That is skill. I can click a mouse and put an arrow into a Goblin an 400 yards... that is not skill. That is a program crunching numbers and giving a result.

[Wolfways]

Eglar, on 03 April 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

And that is exactly what the difference for me is, in LRMs, when it comes to accuracy - you can be a bad player and your LRMs would still hit but you can be only that good.

Or if you're fighting good players you'd rarely ever hit them.
I'm not a great player, i know that. So why do i rarely get hit by indirect LRM's? Simple. I don't run around in the open.