373 replies to this topic

[Corwin Vickers]

AFS (Anti Flaming System) Engaged!


I know people are saying that LRMs were fine before the recent speed buff but was I the only guy who totally wrote a player off as being useless as soon as they said "LRM boat here, hold locks!"?

LRMs were not discussed before the speed buff because they were total garbage and have been for a long, long time (and still are.)



Let's analyze what changed:

LRMs had a speed of 120 m/s
LRM speed increased to 175 m/s


That's it. they now go 45% faster. No damage increase, no arc change (despite people swearing they are now making 90 degree turns)


LRMs still have a minimum range
LRMs are still extremely vulnerable to shutdown by ECM
LRMs still has AMS as a counter (no other weapon system has to worry about it's own seperate counter)
LRMs still fly in a large arc even when your target is right in front of you.
LRMs still have a DEDICATED WARNING SYSTEM that verbally and visually warns you that someone is targeting you.
LRMs and their ammo are still extremely heavy.



A PPCs projectile speed is 1500 m/s
An AC5s projectile speed is 1300

We're talking 10X the speed with none of the problems that LRMs have (except PPC minimum and that can be fixed with an ERPPC)

What would happen if you slowed PPCs and ACs down to 120 m/s and put in point defense shields, visual/verbal warnings, and 1.5 ton systems that shut them down?




LRMs are pretty scarce a week later (at least at the Elo I play at.) Everyone is back to PPCs and autocannons.


A weapon system that requires lots of users on your team using it to be effective, support mechs with NARC and TAG helping get locks, and that can be countered into uselessness by AMS and ECM is a useless system.


Go ahead and nerf the speed. LRMs are already irrelevant. I see a guy say "LRM boat here, keep locks!" and I think "F___ that guy."


LRMs need not just a buff but a fundamental change.

[FupDup]

Corwin Vickers, on 29 March 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

AFS (Anti Flaming System) Engaged!

[Nauht]

Obvious troll bait.

[Livebait]

I agree totally. BUT why stop there. I'd say make LRM's travel at about...500...no,no,no 2500m/s. And have every LRM have a hit damage of say the "Redeemer" in UT. Game play would be so much fun.

[PeekaBoo I C Ju]

Nauht, on 29 March 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

Obvious troll bait.

obvious n00b

[Tremendous Upside]

Not gonna say they need a buff... but I do think they're fine as is. LRMs have to be at least somewhat viable if we're ever going to have "balance" in this game. It's a weapon that doesn't need to do nearly as much damage as the ballistic and energy options - but it needs to be something you take seriously. At 120m/s, that just wasn't the case. I know I'd just walk behind a rock with the jeapordy theme playing in my head and avoid 95% of the damage... and that's not gonna work. These things have to be useful. They're not overpowered right now. They honestly feel "just right" to me.

[Corwin Vickers]

I was/am totally serious.

LRMs suck. People who bring them today after having time to feel out the change, suck. People who think LRMs are good suck.

I feel the same way about a LRM boat as I do about people who bring LPL and LB10xs. F___ that guy for handicapping my team.

They may be ok if you bring a launcher or two for range or indirect fire for that rare occasion when it would be better than another ton of ammo or a heatsink and that might change after the slow them down. Who knows, we'll have to see how it feels.

[Sean von Steinike]

I don't think they really need a buff, but only the unskilled or those who refuse to adapt, who can't use simple counters are whining about LRMs.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

Why not kick max range out to 1500M. Then another speed buff would be needed. And would give LRM's a place right next to the Gauss/PPC snipers.

OH NOOOOO. poptart LRMers! Nerf the chassis! Nerf the chassis!

[El Bandito]

Make GECM function like GECM. That's all I ask.

Corwin Vickers, on 29 March 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

Go ahead and nerf the speed. LRMs are already irrelevant. I see a guy say "LRM boat here, keep locks!" and I think "F___ that guy." LRMs need not just a buff but a fundamental change.

Such haughty attitude from teammates could be a reason why LRM usage is decreasing.

Edited by El Bandito, 30 March 2014 - 08:25 AM.

[RamsoPanzer]

Well, if there comes a day, when you actually need to aim in order to use your LRMs, then you can complain, until that day, the only thing that LRMs need are nerfs.

[Bishop Steiner]

Corwin Vickers, on 29 March 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

I was/am totally serious.

LRMs suck. People who bring them today after having time to feel out the change, suck. People who think LRMs are good suck.

I feel the same way about a LRM boat as I do about people who bring LPL and LB10xs. F___ that guy for handicapping my team.

They may be ok if you bring a launcher or two for range or indirect fire for that rare occasion when it would be better than another ton of ammo or a heatsink and that might change after the slow them down. Who knows, we'll have to see how it feels.

you gonna be cussing me a lot , I rather like LPL on some of my brawlers. And I pair with an LB-X on my La Malinche to the tune of 800-900 pt matches. (Barring team getting steamrolled)

That said, LRMs are fine right now. Not as a boat build, because that only works, as you said, in premades built around the dynamic, and mostly against n00bs who wet their panties at Missile Lock messages. (I have been on that team a few times..... hint, if you spend the whole match huddling, dying 1 by 1, you are doing it WRONG!). I have several mechs that run between 15-40 tubes, and they can be very useful. I especially like that my GRF-1N can mount a single LRM15, and it is a nice compliment to my PPC. Before, single missile racks were near useless. (Yes, the 1N has 3, of which I devote 2 to streaks, along with my other 2 energy slots to medium lasers. Makes a very useful and consistent support mech.)

[Ph30nix]

it doesnt help that right now one of the trial mechs is an LRM boat........ kinda helps bump up the number of LRM boats right now..

[Bishop Steiner]

RamsoPanzer, on 30 March 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

Well, if there comes a day, when you actually need to aim in order to use your LRMs, then you can complain, until that day, the only thing that LRMs need are nerfs.

really? Let's see, cuz if you don't have people holding locks, what is it you need to do with LRMs?

Oh yeah. Aim. And hold that aim for multiple seconds, and hope that if they are past 4-500 meters, they are still in the open and haven't broken that lock by the time the missile actually get there.

Conversely, I need 1/10th of a second to point and click and nail that poor schlub with LRMs with my ACs, PPCs, etc, then drop back to hard cover and laugh as few if any of his LRMs actually hit me. Why? Because with MWO's perfect convergence, and how stupidly easy it is to point and click (sorry, "aim" seldom takes much skill in this game. The only real "skill" comes in the form of tactics).

And there is no ECM bubble, no AMS to stop my shot. And the travel time of the SLOWEST projectile is still FOUR TIMES that of an LRM. No grabbing cover to stop that shot.

Can LRMs overcome cover? Soft cover, like the lip of the Caldera in caustic, yes. Concealment, yes. Hard Cover like hugging a tall building, Mountain or Crystal Spire in Tourmaline? Doesn't matter if you have been NARC'd and have 11 TAGS painting you, put those between you and the bad guy, and LRMs lose, every time.

LRMs kill 2 types of players. n00bs who cower and wet themselves in little "murder balls" and Poptarts who refuse to accept that soft cover and poptarting is not the be all tactic any more. And even smart poptarts who actually MOVE and think about the terrain and map, defeat LRMs easy, as the results for the tournament demonstrate.

Stop the whinging about the "church of skill" arguments. Real skill comes in learning to adapt, not how fast one can click a pixel on a jumbo monitor with a variable DPI mouse, with perfect convergence.

And BTW, I run LRMs in less than 25% of matches post patch, boat them in less than 10%, and run neither AMS or ECM in pretty much any mech. And I am doing just fine. So either I am that much better than most of the people whining (doubtful), or maybe, just maybe, they need to stop treating this like a CoD twitch fest and start to REALLY learn to think tactically. Some Maps, LRMs can be very very dangerous. Others they are near useless. Just like Alpine nerfs Brawlers, High Heat maps nerf energy boats, etc. In all cases most ballistics and energies far outrange LRMs, hit almost instantly, and can be maneuvered to counter them.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nauht, on 29 March 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

Obvious troll bait.

And yet... completely accurate.

[Roland]

LRM's don't require aiming, nor do they require you to expose yourself to counter fire, thus they should always be inferior to weapons which do.

Not sure why folks can't really grasp such an obvious and fundamental principle of game balance, other than bads just want to feel like they're not so bad.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 31 March 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

LRM's don't require aiming, nor do they require you to expose yourself to counter fire, thus they should always be inferior to weapons which do.

Not sure why folks can't really grasp such an obvious and fundamental principle of game balance, other than bads just want to feel like they're not so bad.

Got any other weapons that have a 180m dead zone???

[Roland]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 March 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

Got any other weapons that have a 180m dead zone???

No?
What's your point?

[Iskareot]

FupDup, on 29 March 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

OUTSTANDING... and the OP needs to rethink that whole thing. Like sure we could start with the obvious.. like DPS DAMAGE PER SECOND, then we could add to the new speed drawing more LRMs used in drops and matches THUS MAKING MORE LRM BOATS AND SINCE IT IS NOT RESTRICTED THAT THERE COULD BE 6 BOATS, thus then making the LRMS DPS higher but a ranged, unseen DPS increased MECH with 1000m range.

But that would be too easy so I will just not even read anything else.

OH AND IF AMS caught all of it and everything then I would let you hold that to water... but it doesnt so no..

Edited by Iskareot, 31 March 2014 - 07:35 AM.

[Targaryen X]

OP is right, lrms are now somewhat useful. Still not uber, definitely not OP, just useful.
Prior to the patch if someone launched lrms most decent players mentally tagged that as an easy kill, light or fast medium "battle snack", now the lrm users/boats are a factor ignored at your own peril. I think thats a good thing.
AMS is not supposed to block lrms, just mitigate the damage, which it does. Get enough people with AMS and you have a virtual lrm umbrella. Something we did out of hand back when lrms were decent (pre-artemis release) around the time proxis started, IIRC. Then they botched lrms so badly almost nobody used them EXCEPT to boat. Now they have been boosted back up to not being complete and utter garbage and SOME people cant deal.
Keep that in mind forum lrm complainers - not everyone is having problems with them. Some of us, not even using the flippin things, are enjoying the return of lrms to the battlefield.
Personally (and completely anecdotally, sure) I have not experienced the lrmpocalypse some people claim is 'ruining the game'. I have not had any trouble avoiding the rain, even in my atlases, and pugging had good matches all weekend, only one steamroll, but not one match did lrms dominate the battle, they were just another danger on the battlefield that had to be dealt with (rather than laughed at or ignored).
I have more problems by far dealing with poptart teams than lrm boaters.

Edited by Gederix, 31 March 2014 - 08:20 AM.