373 replies to this topic

[Iskareot]

Gederix, on 31 March 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

OP is right, lrms are now somewhat useful. Still not uber, definitely not OP, just useful.
Prior to the patch if someone launched lrms most decent players mentally tagged that as an easy kill, light or fast medium "battle snack", now the lrm users/boats are a factor ignored at your own peril. I think thats a good thing.
AMS is not supposed to block lrms, just mitigate the damage, which it does. Get enough people with AMS and you have a virtual lrm umbrella. Something we did out of hand back when lrms were decent (pre-artemis release) around the time proxis started, IIRC. Then they botched lrms so badly almost nobody used them EXCEPT to boat. Now they have been boosted back up to not being complete and utter garbage and SOME people cant deal.
Keep that in mind forum lrm complainers - not everyone is having problems with them. Some of us, not even using the flippin things, are enjoying the return of lrms to the battlefield.
Personally (and completely anecdotally, sure) I have not experienced the lrmpocalypse some people claim is 'ruining the game'. I have not had any trouble avoiding the rain, even in my atlases, and pugging had good matches all weekend, only one steamroll, but not one match did lrms dominate the battle, they were just another danger on the battlefield that had to be dealt with (rather than laughed at or ignored).
I have more problems by far dealing with poptart teams than lrm boaters.

Yeah the drops you were in since the change obviously have been all perfect then too. Mine are Hide and seek drops with people for minutes standing behind a rock they hope can clear the missile. Brawling is almost null -- winning team all has ER lasers and just stays at max range the whole time.

It changed too much and worse, not for the better overall experience.

Hence the forum posts and in game chat.

[Roadkill]

Roland, on 31 March 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

LRM's don't require aiming, nor do they require you to expose yourself to counter fire, thus they should always be inferior to weapons which do.

Boost LRM speed to 1200 and what do you get?

An LBX that can be countered 17 ways to Tuesday but can fire over hills provided you have some sucker spotting for you.

The no-skill whiners have clearly never tried using LRMs in any kind of decent Elo bracket. Yeah, you can roll newbs with them in the underhive. Yay for you. You can also roll newbs in the underhive with PPCs, or ACs, or... *gasp*... LBXs. Doesn't mean anything because it's the underhive.

But! But! But! My l33t clan rolls experts when we take 6 LRM boats and 2 dedicated spotters! Um... yeah... take 8 PPC/AC5 poptart boats instead and you'll be even better.

LRMs are bad. Period. Indirect fire in no way makes up for how bad LRMs are.

The ONE thing that LRMs have going for them is that they're easy to learn. Mediocre players can do well with LRMs. But it's not because LRMs are good, it's because they're playing against other mediocre players.

To a certain extent I'm with the OP. Now that the fuss is dying down and people are realizing that LRMs still suck even with the speed buff, I get annoyed when someone on my team announces "LRM boat, please hold locks!" at the start of a match. I figure we're doomed at that point, because we're essentially a Mech down.

My LRM Mechs have all gone back into the garage to wait for the next LRM buff. I have the spare Mechbays... no skin off my nose to keep them around in the hopes that PGI will some day make them useful.

[Gas Guzzler]

Most of these problems are a result of unrestrained boating. It's not the LRMs themselves, but having 4 trial stalkers converging their LRMs IS a problem. This will be fixed with the 3/3/3/3 so just sit tight.

[Odins Fist]

Corwin Vickers, on 29 March 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

"Lrms Need A Buff"

And after a bout of uncontrolablle laughter, he went and played a few matches..

[Mordin Ashe]

Agrees with OP, there are too many counters to LRMs to make them viable in competitive games. While they should remain as strong as they are now, we need less things that make them completely useless.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 March 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

really? Let's see, cuz if you don't have people holding locks, what is it you need to do with LRMs?

Oh yeah. Aim. And hold that aim for multiple seconds, and hope that if they are past 4-500 meters, they are still in the open and haven't broken that lock by the time the missile actually get there.

Hi,

I've been using LRMs in the way you described in the other post, just an addition to an assault mech that has a standard payload of other items (AC20 + ER LLAS or AC5x2 + PPC).

I'm not trying to be rude, but you really can't call it "aiming" when it's time to get your own locks.


You don't have keep it locked on the target, you don't have to lead, you don't have to worry about intervening terrain that could be as small as a hill. You just need to make sure your target isn't behind a huge structure or in a tunnel.

You can do it while moving at full speed.



I know a lot of people like LRMs. I don't really like the concept of IDF, but I've resorted to them because I pug alot.

It's basically LRM or be LRMd, so if this is what the devs feel is working as intended - so be it.


But I won't for a second pretend it's aiming, or that it requires as much effort & positioning as trying to fire weapons like ACs/PPCs.

Yes they are pinpoint, yes they are deadly, but you eat more return fire when using them than you do using IDF weapons.

[Roland]

Roadkill, on 31 March 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

Boost LRM speed to 1200 and what do you get?

An LBX that can be countered 17 ways to Tuesday but can fire over hills provided you have some sucker spotting for you.

And doesn't really require aiming, and will actually have its missiles hit the target (which an LBX won't). And takes fewer critical slots. And weighs less.

Seriously, what is so hard to understand about this? The LRMs don't require you to be good at aiming. They track a target. They are low skill weapons.

I understand that lots of people who are bad at aiming want to ignore that fact, but it's how the game works. Weapons that don't require you to aim aren't supposed to be as good as weapons that DO require you to aim.

Roadkill, on 31 March 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

The ONE thing that LRMs have going for them is that they're easy to learn. Mediocre players can do well with LRMs. But it's not because LRMs are good, it's because they're playing against other mediocre players.

LRM's tend to flop back and forth between useless and totally OP, because either they are easily countered and thus eliminated from high tier play, or they aren't easily countered and then dominate high tier play because they offer major advantages that no other weapon can offer.

The big problem really is that the fundamental mechanics of LRM's currently preclude any effective balancing.

But if you have mechanics which allow you to dump damage on targets that can't shoot back at you, and don't require you to actually aim, then those LRM's effectively HAVE to be weak.. because otherwise they are crazy OP.

And this is exactly what we have seen in MWO's development. They've never been effectively balanced, and have generally always swung between trash and crazy OP.

[Roadkill]

Roland, on 31 March 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

Weapons that don't require you to aim aren't supposed to be as good as weapons that DO require you to aim.

I think you missed my point, or I wasn't clear enough. I was agreeing with you.

If you speed up LRMs to 1200 you still end up with a bad weapon. LBXs aren't good weapons.

Where they currently sit, LRMs are pretty much trash unless you're shooting at a bad player or you're really really good at using LRMs (and thus putting the kibosh on all those no-skill whiners). But then if you're shooting at a bad player, pretty much any weapon is going to feel OP, and if you're actually really good with LRMs then you deserve to do well with them. Just like any other weapon.

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LRM's tend to flop back and forth between useless and totally OP, because either they are easily countered and thus eliminated from high tier play, or they aren't easily countered and then dominate high tier play because they offer major advantages that no other weapon can offer.

The big problem really is that the fundamental mechanics of LRM's currently preclude any effective balancing.

But if you have mechanics which allow you to dump damage on targets that can't shoot back at you, and don't require you to actually aim, then those LRM's effectively HAVE to be weak.. because otherwise they are crazy OP.

And this is exactly what we have seen in MWO's development. They've never been effectively balanced, and have generally always swung between trash and crazy OP.

Yep. Though I do feel like right now they're sitting in about as good of a place as they've ever been. I don't feel like they're balanced with FLD weapons, but I do feel like they're pretty close to good enough. You can take a single LRM-15 and not feel dirty for doing so, because on a mixed-weapon build that LRM-15 can actually do okay damage for you and serve a purpose. At a speed of 120 I never even felt that was the case, so the boost to 175 seems like it did actually do something good.

[Rebas Kradd]

Roland, on 31 March 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

I understand that lots of people who are bad at aiming want to ignore that fact, but it's how the game works. Weapons that don't require you to aim aren't supposed to be as good as weapons that DO require you to aim.

Holding a reticle in the general area of a target is not devoid of skill. Positioning, sometimes TAG usage, is also involved. Also, static LRM boats give away their position quickly, and those who are intelligent enough to move while spewing their payload are only demonstrating more skill. It's skill, just of a different variety.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 31 March 2014 - 11:02 AM.

[Josef Nader]

OP is correct. LRMs are no longer completely useless, but they're still low on the usability totem pole. Direct fire weapons can focus damage, hammer openings, and are not completely reliant on teammates to be valuable.

If LRMs were OP, why does it feel like I lose a lot more when our team has tons of LRM boats? Because those boats are mulched by decent players who know to rush in, soak a few missile hits, and laugh as that LRM50 assault is reduced to a Locust's worth of medium lasers.

You know when I lose to LRMs? When I'm playing with bad teammates who don't pay attention to the streams of missiles coming from behind a hill. When my teammates see an LRM boat 200m away trying to back away from them, and rather than charge forward they hit reverse and try to run to cover rather than tough the first volley and beat the LRM boat silly. Rather than scoot from cover to cover, they hesitate and try to hide in one place, never closing with the enemy. If you do stuff like that, then yes, LRMs will best you silly. You've got to get aggressive and learn to move through the map, and you can completely nullify LRMs as a threat. That's not even factoring AMS or ECM.

tl;dr LRMs are usable now, but they're by no means a top tier weapon. They're still pretty garbage, with poor scattered damage and heavy ammo dependency.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

1) Increase LRM range to 1500m.
2) For indirect fire double lock on time.
3) For direct fire decrease range to 750m, remove Bitchin Bettie and increase speed to 500m/sec.

[Roland]

Rebas Kradd, on 31 March 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

Holding a reticle in the general area of a target is not devoid of skill.

Uh.. yes dude. It is.

Holding the reticle in the general area of a target requires effectively zero skill.

It's not something which is even remotely difficult to accomplish.

Rebas Kradd, on 31 March 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

Positioning, sometimes TAG usage, is also involved. Also, static LRM boats give away their position quickly, and those who are intelligent enough to move while spewing their payload are only demonstrating more skill. It's skill, just of a different variety.

No, it's really not.

Because all of the skill involved in tactical movement is not something which is unique to LRM carriers. That's something which is used by EVERY mech.

LRM's require LESS skill, not simply different skills.. because other mechs require all those skills, plus the ability to actually aim precisely.

[Josef Nader]

And LRMs more than make up for that by being a slow moving, highly inaccurate LB10X, and the LB10X is already a pretty bad weapon.


LRM boats are awful. Always have been. Always will be. The thing I like about the buff is now my single launchers actually feel like something more than a tool to get people to run back to cover by flashing panic warnings all over their screen. Pure boats are vulnerable, weak, and generally pretty useless against any reasonably competent team unless you are exceptionally skilled at positioning for LRMs.

Edited by Josef Nader, 31 March 2014 - 12:37 PM.

[Roland]

Josef Nader, on 31 March 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

And LRMs more than make up for that by being a slow moving, highly inaccurate LB10X, and the LB10X is already a pretty bad weapon.


LRM boats are awful. Always have been. Always will be. The thing I like about the buff is now my single launchers actually feel like something more than a tool to get people to run back to cover by flashing panic warnings all over their screen. Pure boats are vulnerable, weak, and generally pretty useless against any reasonably competent team unless you are exceptionally skilled at positioning for LRMs.

LRM's are clearly, clearly superior to the LBX10.

Now, that's not saying much, as the LBX10 is total trash.. but folks who are trying to argue the laughable idea that LRM's are equal or on par with the LBX10's garbageness are totally fooling themselves.

[Drasari]

I agree OP. It's so nice to see other mech's besides all Dakka boats and PPC/AC jumpers.

Due to the LRM buffs, we now see more lights as well; doing the scouting/recon job they are intended for.

The mass amounts of LRM's in the 1st week of the buff are long gone and we are now left with a far more diverse balance of mech's and loadouts.

[Zeus89]

Straighten the arc more, ala Mechwarrior 3 or 4. Then buff em all you want.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roland, on 31 March 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Uh.. yes dude. It is.

Holding the reticle in the general area of a target requires effectively zero skill.

It's not something which is even remotely difficult to accomplish.


No, it's really not.

Because all of the skill involved in tactical movement is not something which is unique to LRM carriers. That's something which is used by EVERY mech.

LRM's require LESS skill, not simply different skills.. because other mechs require all those skills, plus the ability to actually aim precisely.

I'm kind of surprised to see this line of thought process from you Roland.

I honestly thought you were one of the more well spoken, thoughtful posters. Guess I wasn't paying enough attention.

The thought process that hovering a reticle over a mech for .5 seconds and firing is hard is laughable.

This is one of the easiest FPS games I've ever played. There is nothing really hard about it.

If you have a top of the line system with no lag, you should have 0 issues ever hitting you target.

Maybe a light mech might give you trouble now and then, but that's less about not being able to hit them and more about not being able to pick where you put the damage.

If you are fighting mediums or bigger, you should have 0 issues putting your FLD damage exactly where you want unless you are firing at extreme ranges. The advanced zoom module makes it super easy.

So we've established that aiming is not hard. On top of that, the fact that you can fire a 30 damage pinpoint shot that requires about a half second, means you can spend MUCH more time playing defense.

This is a very underrated aspect of MW:O and one of the huge issues with LRM's.

Lastly, there is the positional awareness.

Another very underrated aspect of MW:O.

Due to LRM's functioning so differently than every other weapon in the game, it becomes very difficult to just hang with the group. It also means you have to be infinitely more aware of your surroundings due to not only making sure no one gets close to you, but also because you need to make sure your shot will hit it's target.

You need to know what cover your target is near, and whether your missiles will travel fast enough to impact before the target reaches cover.

Honestly, it sounds like you really aren't at the level that I thought you were Roland.

[Wolfways]

Make LRM's fire-and-forget, remove the warning, and fix ECM. Then LRM's will be a decent weapon (they could also do with another speed increase imo).

As for aiming (with other weapons)...it couldn't get easier. Make the aiming circle smaller for missiles for all i care. It's almost impossible to miss a mech with any weapon.

[H Seldon]

I must really suck. My hit% with LRM10+artemis is 39% after 49 matches. I thought LRMs were supposed to be easy mode. All of my other weapons are around 80% or above.

[Roland]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 31 March 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

The thought process that hovering a reticle over a mech for .5 seconds and firing is hard is laughable.

Simply hitting a mech isn't actually good enough. That's the chief difference between bad players and good players.

Any competent pilot can usually score a hit on a poorly piloted mech.. Simply landing a shot somewhere on a mech isn't really that hard (although I would also point out that the vast majority of players seemingly can't actually pull this off either).

It's being able to hit a specific component repeatedly which involves skill. And frankly, there are only a handful of players who actually have enough skill that they're able to do that consistently.

And frankly, the folks who constantly say its so easy? They aren't the ones who can do it.

I'm guessing you're not running 100% accuracy rate, even with lasers.

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This is one of the easiest FPS games I've ever played. There is nothing really hard about it.

And yet, you aren't the best player in the game. What exactly do you believe differentiates you from them, given that you apparently find it so incredibly easy? How are they able to consistently be a better shot than you? Luck?

Saying "This is the easiest FPS game I've ever played" is a nonsensical, meaningless statement... because it's not a matter of whether you can move the mouse and shoot a target. That's not how competitive shooters work. It's about whether you can move your mouse and precisely hit a target BETTER THAN THE PERSON YOU ARE PLAYING AGAINST.

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If you have a top of the line system with no lag, you should have 0 issues ever hitting you target.

This statement is totally absurd... because even the best players in the game aren't running 100% accuracy with their guns. I sure has hell know that YOU aren't. I'm guessing that you are significantly below 75%, maybe below 50, with virtually all your guns. And that's merely a measurement of whether you are able to hit a mech AT ALL, not actually hitting a specific component.

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So we've established that aiming is not hard.

No, we've established that you either don't really know what constitutes aiming, or are playing against mouth breathers who don't know how to maneuver or soak damage, and just wander mindlessly into your guns.

Quote

Lastly, there is the positional awareness.


Another very underrated aspect of MW:O.

As I've already pointed out, EVERY WEAPONS SYSTEM REQUIRES THIS. There is nothing about LRM's which require some kind of superior SA.

Edited by Roland, 31 March 2014 - 06:08 PM.