4349 replies to this topic

[Cimarb]

Yeah, I am not a fan of it, but I think the 180 engine cap puts it in a good place. It is the slowest IS light, which it should be, but is as fast as most of our Clan lights, so it will be just as viable.

[Wintersdark]

stjobe, on 20 March 2015 - 11:50 PM, said:

Not the same people

The trolls that don't want it to be viable complain it's "too fast" for an Urbie.
The try-hards that want it to be comp-grade viable complain it's "too slow" for that.

Those of us who just want an Urbie are happy

Yup. I'm pretty happy, personally.

Cimarb, on 21 March 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

Yeah, I am not a fan of it, but I think the 180 engine cap puts it in a good place. It is the slowest IS light, which it should be, but is as fast as most of our Clan lights, so it will be just as viable.

I hoped for a 200 cap. That hope, however, had absolutely nothing to do with speed and everything to do with how TruDubs work in engine. That extra internal DHS makes a huge difference, both in terms of available crit slots (it's basically +3 free crit slots) and in terms of cooling (2.0 vs. 1.4)

[stjobe]

Wintersdark, on 21 March 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

I hoped for a 200 cap. That hope, however, had absolutely nothing to do with speed and everything to do with how TruDubs work in engine. That extra internal DHS makes a huge difference, both in terms of available crit slots (it's basically +3 free crit slots) and in terms of cooling (2.0 vs. 1.4)

Cooling-wise, it's 0.6 less. But any Urbie with an AC isn't going to strictly *need* DHS anyway.

I have fantasies of a SHS-equipped Urbie playing submarine on Forest Colony or River City, only peeking out to fire its AC/10, with me yelling "TORPEDOES AWAY!" over VOIP every time

[Wintersdark]

stjobe, on 21 March 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

Cooling-wise, it's 0.6 less. But any Urbie with an AC isn't going to strictly *need* DHS anyway.

I have fantasies of a SHS-equipped Urbie playing submarine on Forest Colony or River City, only peeking out to fire its AC/10, with me yelling "TORPEDOES AWAY!" over VOIP every time

heh if it weren't for the appalling dissipation of SHS, I'd do that. But my experimentation with Locusts taught me that even if the heat cap is fine, the slow dissipation ends up screwing you because you can't actually shed heat on hotter maps. It ends up taking minutes to cool down.

With that said... All my build experimentation has seen me falling back to XL180 engines anyways, because tonnage.

Edited by Wintersdark, 21 March 2015 - 11:10 AM.

[Wintersdark]

I'm sad, though, that's there's really no way to get a really usable AC20 build out of an Urbanmech - that is, one with at least 3t of ammo; at least, not with how things currently work. I mean, without our doubled armor it would be workable, but with only 1 or 1.5t of ammo, you'd struggle a lot even under ideal circumstances. Just takes too many hits to kill something.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Wintersdark, on 21 March 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

I'm sad, though, that's there's really no way to get a really usable AC20 build out of an Urbanmech - that is, one with at least 3t of ammo; at least, not with how things currently work. I mean, without our doubled armor it would be workable, but with only 1 or 1.5t of ammo, you'd struggle a lot even under ideal circumstances. Just takes too many hits to kill something.

Endo, and Ferro should free up enough :3 Might have to lose that laser, though. And you'll definitely have to use the negative tonnage engine...

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 21 March 2015 - 12:23 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Twilight Fenrir, on 21 March 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

Endo, and Ferro should free up enough :3 Might have to lose that laser, though. And you'll definitely have to use the negative tonnage engine...

No, they don't. If you want to stay over 60kph (necessary for MWO; you really need to be able to at least keep up with the Atlases after all) you're already looking at ~125 rated XL, endo, FF to get an AC20 with 1t ammo.

Also, that AC20 + all the external heat sinks you need eat slots fast, pushing FF off the table.

You can mock it up on Anasi spiders (not actually using an AC20 obviously, but using the same slot/tonnage consumption with other stuff). Basically, with an XL engine, the minimum engine you can run without FF is 125XL, and that leaves exactly enough space for an AC20 and 2t ammo - and that's with 0 RA armor and 4 cockpit armor. There are no free crit slots there. 73kph, but you can't elect to go slower for more armor as you'd have to stop using Endosteel to free up more crits, or go to a standard engine, but the 125XL is 2t. A standard 100 engine with the same armor profile gets you the same loadout at 60kph, with 2t ammo. You could get a third ton, but you'd probably be at the stock engine at that point.

People will do it, of course, but at those speeds you won't be able to meaningfully contribute to a match; you'll just die. Nobody is going to ignore the sub-60kph Urbanmech because "it's not a threat"; simply because a basically motionless light is a damn easy stat-padding kill.

IMHO, for most folks the biggest regularly used ballistics are going to end up being lighter autocannons. Probably more things like AC5 + ML or AC2 + LL builds; the odd LBX and even rarer AC10, though the later two could be a bit more common if the Urbie is sufficiently quirked to stock weapons. A lot will likely end up as heavy energy builds with machine guns in the ballistic slots (HERESY!)

[Wintersdark]

The AC12 Urbie: ANANSI
AC5/4ML Urbie: ANANSI (only 2E on the Anasi so using mpl's)

Stuff like that shows the limits you're under, really. I'm pretty excited; harsh build limitations make mechlab time even more fun.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Wintersdark, on 21 March 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

No, they don't. If you want to stay over 60kph (necessary for MWO; you really need to be able to at least keep up with the Atlases after all) you're already looking at ~125 rated XL, endo, FF to get an AC20 with 1t ammo.

Also, that AC20 + all the external heat sinks you need eat slots fast, pushing FF off the table.

You can mock it up on Anasi spiders (not actually using an AC20 obviously, but using the same slot/tonnage consumption with other stuff). Basically, with an XL engine, the minimum engine you can run without FF is 125XL, and that leaves exactly enough space for an AC20 and 2t ammo - and that's with 0 RA armor and 4 cockpit armor. There are no free crit slots there. 73kph, but you can't elect to go slower for more armor as you'd have to stop using Endosteel to free up more crits, or go to a standard engine, but the 125XL is 2t. A standard 100 engine with the same armor profile gets you the same loadout at 60kph, with 2t ammo. You could get a third ton, but you'd probably be at the stock engine at that point.

People will do it, of course, but at those speeds you won't be able to meaningfully contribute to a match; you'll just die. Nobody is going to ignore the sub-60kph Urbanmech because "it's not a threat"; simply because a basically motionless light is a damn easy stat-padding kill.

IMHO, for most folks the biggest regularly used ballistics are going to end up being lighter autocannons. Probably more things like AC5 + ML or AC2 + LL builds; the odd LBX and even rarer AC10, though the later two could be a bit more common if the Urbie is sufficiently quirked to stock weapons. A lot will likely end up as heavy energy builds with machine guns in the ballistic slots (HERESY!)

Oh, I dunno... my Founder's atlas only runs 46K WITH speed tweak, and I still manage to flank, and hammer the enemy team with the crapton of weapons I loaded onto it, that forced me to move only 46K The stock engine will do fine, and may actually work to the Urbies benefit! Showing up a bit late means there are lots of soft targets for you to sink those hot AC/20 slugs into ;3

Some of my best matches have been ones where my game crashed on connect... By the time I get back in, half my team is dead, half the enemy team is crippled, and I just steam-roll through them! >

And, currently, there's nothing in Smurfy's that will equate to a negative tonnage engine... So, building mockups isn't really accurate to what is possible.

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 21 March 2015 - 01:07 PM.

[jper4]

Wintersdark, on 21 March 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

No, they don't. If you want to stay over 60kph (necessary for MWO; you really need to be able to at least keep up with the Atlases after all) you're already looking at ~125 rated XL, endo, FF to get an AC20 with 1t ammo.

Also, that AC20 + all the external heat sinks you need eat slots fast, pushing FF off the table.

You can mock it up on Anasi spiders (not actually using an AC20 obviously, but using the same slot/tonnage consumption with other stuff). Basically, with an XL engine, the minimum engine you can run without FF is 125XL, and that leaves exactly enough space for an AC20 and 2t ammo - and that's with 0 RA armor and 4 cockpit armor. There are no free crit slots there. 73kph, but you can't elect to go slower for more armor as you'd have to stop using Endosteel to free up more crits, or go to a standard engine, but the 125XL is 2t. A standard 100 engine with the same armor profile gets you the same loadout at 60kph, with 2t ammo. You could get a third ton, but you'd probably be at the stock engine at that point.

People will do it, of course, but at those speeds you won't be able to meaningfully contribute to a match; you'll just die. Nobody is going to ignore the sub-60kph Urbanmech because "it's not a threat"; simply because a basically motionless light is a damn easy stat-padding kill.

IMHO, for most folks the biggest regularly used ballistics are going to end up being lighter autocannons. Probably more things like AC5 + ML or AC2 + LL builds; the odd LBX and even rarer AC10, though the later two could be a bit more common if the Urbie is sufficiently quirked to stock weapons. A lot will likely end up as heavy energy builds with machine guns in the ballistic slots (HERESY!)

with spider-urbie i know i can get the ac10 to work with a std 100 engine. the ac20 one was the one i was concerned with ammo. but both of those are defintiely in the "find the blob- stay with the blob" categories.

i'm not fond of the lbx after trying it with the enforcer for a bit so i was thinking of going anti-urbie with it. LPL, 3MG and another laser or two at a faster speed. i do expect to see (ER)PPC/ERLL urbies a lot though.

Wintersdark, on 21 March 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

The AC12 Urbie: ANANSI
AC5/4ML Urbie: ANANSI (only 2E on the Anasi so using mpl's)

Stuff like that shows the limits you're under, really. I'm pretty excited; harsh build limitations make mechlab time even more fun.

could always drop that last half ton on the first build to toss a SL on too

[Wintersdark]

Tanar, on 21 March 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

with spider-urbie i know i can get the ac10 to work with a std 100 engine. the ac20 one was the one i was concerned with ammo. but both of those are defintiely in the "find the blob- stay with the blob" categories.

i'm not fond of the lbx after trying it with the enforcer for a bit so i was thinking of going anti-urbie with it. LPL, 3MG and another laser or two at a faster speed. i do expect to see (ER)PPC/ERLL urbies a lot though.



could always drop that last half ton on the first build to toss a SL on too

Or a JJ for maneuverability. Those where basically "guideline" sorts to demonstrate the slot/tonnage limits.

Twilight Fenrir, on 21 March 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

Oh, I dunno... my Founder's atlas only runs 46K WITH speed tweak, and I still manage to flank, and hammer the enemy team with the crapton of weapons I loaded onto it, that forced me to move only 46K The stock engine will do fine, and may actually work to the Urbies benefit! Showing up a bit late means there are lots of soft targets for you to sink those hot AC/20 slugs into ;3

Some of my best matches have been ones where my game crashed on connect... By the time I get back in, half my team is dead, half the enemy team is crippled, and I just steam-roll through them! >

And, currently, there's nothing in Smurfy's that will equate to a negative tonnage engine... So, building mockups isn't really accurate to what is possible.

Yeah, but arriving late in a fresh 100t assault is a very different proposition than arriving late in a 30t light with stripped down armor and insufficient ammo to actually accomplish much even if you're a great shot. The best you can do with one ton of ammo and an AC20 - the absolute, hard limit - is 140 damage + a teeny bit from some crit carrythrough. Unless the enemy team consists of nothing but near-dead mechs, that's not going to be enough.

[SgtMagor]

looking good, Alt Geo ftw! thx PGI.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Back to the matter of carrying an AC/20 with more than one ton of ammo...

The UM-R60L comes stock with an AC/20, and one ton of ammo. With standard armor, and standard internal structure. Switching to Ferro, and Endo will give you at least 2 more tons of ammo. Plus, all the urbies come stock with 11 heatsinks! So, you can peal one of those off, leaving you with a theoretical maximum of 4 tons of AC/20 ammo, unless you start hacking into your armor. (If you're gonna take that small laser off, you certainly don't NEED the armor on that left arm anyways ) So you could probably get up to 5 tons, 30 rounds, or 600 damage max Just... hope you like a leisurely stroll!

So long as the info posted on the urbie order page is accurate (which, it kind of has to be) That's what we're looking at.

And who knows what quirks may bring? Speed buff? Ammo per ton buff? (Haha, not very likely... but, imagine!)

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 21 March 2015 - 04:48 PM.

[ATM87]

not sure if it helps but remember, the Urbie doesn't have lower arm actuators or hand actuators in either arm, freeing up 4 crit slots.

[Knightshadowsong]

I cant wait for the Urbian. Easy kills are always welcome. and that things awful speed, weak armor and easy to doge/blow off weapons will just make it that much more fun when people start rageing. Looks cool. But i'm calling it. DOA in any map other then River City. and I don't even want to think about when those guys who bring locusts to CW will do with THIS Garbage can with Legs.

[Wintersdark]

Twilight Fenrir, on 21 March 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

Back to the matter of carrying an AC/20 with more than one ton of ammo...

The UM-R60L comes stock with an AC/20, and one ton of ammo. With standard armor, and standard internal structure. Switching to Ferro, and Endo will give you at least 2 more tons of ammo. Plus, all the urbies come stock with 11 heatsinks! So, you can peal one of those off, leaving you with a theoretical maximum of 4 tons of AC/20 ammo, unless you start hacking into your armor. (If you're gonna take that small laser off, you certainly don't NEED the armor on that left arm anyways ) So you could probably get up to 5 tons, 30 rounds, or 600 damage max Just... hope you like a leisurely stroll!

So long as the info posted on the urbie order page is accurate (which, it kind of has to be) That's what we're looking at.

And who knows what quirks may bring? Speed buff? Ammo per ton buff? (Haha, not very likely... but, imagine!)

you can't have both es and ff and an ac20 and 3t of ammo. Not enough slots.

You CAN make builds that can carry 2, maaaaaaaybe 3t ammo with SHS and the stock engine, but that's not a workable build in MWO.

And when I'm talking about that, about usable builds, I'm not doing it from a "optimal in comp matches" standpoint but rather "builds you can take INA pug without screwing your team". Stock urbie speed is simply too slow - nobody would ever muss you, so you'd be crushed the moment to arrived.

Knightshadowsong, on 21 March 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

I cant wait for the Urbian. Easy kills are always welcome. and that things awful speed, weak armor and easy to doge/blow off weapons will just make it that much more fun when people start rageing. Looks cool. But i'm calling it. DOA in any map other then River City. and I don't even want to think about when those guys who bring locusts to CW will do with THIS Garbage can with Legs.

No worse than Clan lights. Same speed as an adder or kitfox, 360 torso rotation, probably hardcore quirks, same armour as any other 30t mech.

How the urbie is stock isn't really relevant in MWO, just as with any other mech. Virtually every IS mechs stock builds are pretty much worthless in MWO after all .

[Twilight Fenrir]

Knightshadowsong, on 21 March 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

I cant wait for the Urbian. Easy kills are always welcome. and that things awful speed, weak armor and easy to doge/blow off weapons will just make it that much more fun when people start rageing. Looks cool. But i'm calling it. DOA in any map other then River City. and I don't even want to think about when those guys who bring locusts to CW will do with THIS Garbage can with Legs.

Maybe so... but imagine a lance of them in one of the caves!

[Krigherren]

I want it! I must have it! I can't wait any longer! April 7th is much too far away! 17 days! NO. 17 hours. Make it happen, PGI! I don't care if it's broken. I'm used to broken. Broken is tradition here. I'd rather have a broken Urbie for a bit and have it sooner than have to wait any longer. Besides, it would be hilarious to see if people were to complain about it being OP or something along those lines. As unlikely as that sounds, I'm sure PGI could manage it.

[Ridir Semii]

Krigherren, on 22 March 2015 - 05:24 PM, said:

I want it! I must have it! I can't wait any longer! April 7th is much too far away! 17 days! NO. 17 hours. Make it happen, PGI! I don't care if it's broken. I'm used to broken. Broken is tradition here. I'd rather have a broken Urbie for a bit and have it sooner than have to wait any longer. Besides, it would be hilarious to see if people were to complain about it being OP or something along those lines. As unlikely as that sounds, I'm sure PGI could manage it.

what he said!!

[jper4]

Wintersdark, on 21 March 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

you can't have both es and ff and an ac20 and 3t of ammo. Not enough slots.

You CAN make builds that can carry 2, maaaaaaaybe 3t ammo with SHS and the stock engine, but that's not a workable build in MWO.

And when I'm talking about that, about usable builds, I'm not doing it from a "optimal in comp matches" standpoint but rather "builds you can take INA pug without screwing your team". Stock urbie speed is simply too slow - nobody would ever muss you, so you'd be crushed the moment to arrived.

No worse than Clan lights. Same speed as an adder or kitfox, 360 torso rotation, probably hardcore quirks, same armour as any other 30t mech.

How the urbie is stock isn't really relevant in MWO, just as with any other mech. Virtually every IS mechs stock builds are pretty much worthless in MWO after all .

edit- nevermind it didn;t work the way i thought it was going to so ignore this post- though i got an extra half ton of ammo in but didn't.

got the same as you 2 tons of ammo and a SL, 161 armor with a std 100 engine and endo/FF (no FF using an xl to free up an extra half ton difference between std 100/xl 100)

Edited by Tanar, 23 March 2015 - 10:23 AM.