98 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

FireSlade, on 02 April 2014 - 04:28 AM, said:

I still have yet to see where PGI and a few others are saying that it was more maneuverable than a heavy. Maybe it is me but I never followed the meta with the heavies to stick STD engines in and cower in fear of losing my ST. Running with the Victor before the nerf was like using a heavier Orion which it is. So I ran between 340xl and 360xl on them being able to flank with the extra speed and still hit hard. 76-80kph was a nice speed for it; now it feels like a waste of tons when the extra speed does not even help it out.

My Ilya with a 340XL had superior ground agility to my VTR. The lack of JJS did hamper it some in comparison, but as a brawler I found the multiple Ballistics a pretty fair trade off. I could build my 3D to exceed my VTR. And Quickdraws could far out do them. Not 100% sure about Catapults, since they got nerfed hard back in the SRM heyday. That would make it a little suspect anyhow.

If there was one thing that maybe I could see, winc e80 tons is still 8p0 tons would be nerfing the linear acceleration and braking before it's twist rate.

Do love how the pogostick nation manages to ruin mechs for the rest of us who don't poptart. Thanks for that!

[SgtMagor]

I never used my mech to play the pogo tango, or jump for the sake of jumping. my use of jump jets has always been a calculated effort, when I did use my Victor most mechs medium and heavy can carry as much weapons as the Victor, only was able to survive many fights because of its original design quirks. nuff said!

[Undecided]

Iqfish, on 02 April 2014 - 04:20 AM, said:

just get over it and adapt.

Unfortunately in this case adapting means moving on to better mechs which can do the same things as the new sluggish Victor and more. You might as well have told me I should have bought a Highlander instead.

I don't contest that assaults (and heavies for that matter) are far too maneuverable, but randomly slamming down the nerf bat on one or two mechs while leaving others completely untouched just means that you have one more terrible mech in the game that can't compete with it's un-nerfed brethren. If this is a first step in a wider series of balance changes then A, I don't understand why they chose something as drastic as a 20% turn speed reduction to start with and B, I don't see why they didn't at least try to tune a few more mechs with it.

It would make more sense to look at the equations that determine how maneuverable a mech will be based on size of the mech and its engine. In particular I think the multiplicative effect of engine size should be reduced, there is a reason why the most popular upgrades to a mech are double heat sinks and the endo -> bigger engine combo. That would give much more reason to take lighter chassis, while still allowing benefits for large engines beyond speed in a straight line.

As it stands I do not feel like "getting over" the fact that a mech at the lightest end of the assault class is now just as maneuverable as the one at the heaviest. Try out the trial Victor, it has an XL 350 and I've seen fishing boats turn faster than it.

[BourbonFaucet]

Individual chassis are not the problem, FLD weapons are.

I have this (arguably silly) idea that the Gauss Rifle, having the word RIFLE in its name, should be the only SNIPER RIFLE WITH PINPOINT HIGH DAMAGE.

Lower the firing rate of the smaller autocannons, and give the PPC 5/3/2 damage, that is, 5 points to the part it hits, 3 points to another part, and 2 to another, the "arcing" effect some people really want.

The PPC is my favorite TT weapon. It does 10 pinpoint, sure, but damage is randomly assigned in TT. Here you can put 1 PPC and 2 AC'5 and shred any part you want.

[Marmon Rzohr]

I really don't get people in this thread. The Victor is still a great mech (and my personal favourite). Even as a brawler. Sure, it was better when it was more agile, but there was hardly any difference between it and the Cataphract which is 10 tons lighter.

While I agree that 20% was heavy-handed (IMHO 10% would be much more realistic), it is now more balanced compared to the other assaults. Look at it this way: it's still by far the fastest and most agile assault (the awesome does not count because it's just....), it has JJs, great hitboxes and good hardpoints.... what more could you want ?

If you bought the Dragon Slayer you can sleep soundly, it's still the best hero mech in the game and one of the best mechs overall.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 02 April 2014 - 01:57 PM.

[Liev Andropov]

PGI's running into two (three?) conflicting aspects of its "strategy" with idiotic moves like this. Let me explain....
I started playing with Centurions, which were (at the time) known for being the most durable mediums. I learned to appreciate the chassis, even though it was being made more and more obsolete in game by the growing assault population (a result of PGIs lack of role warfare and tonnage limits, aspect 1). When the Victor came out it was hailed as the most medium-like of the assaults, which immediately appealed to me as there was increasingly no reason to even try to bring a medium onto the field.

So, I bought my first Victor. And it was perfect. Not great at range, obviously a larger target than the Cent, but if I could get within a few hundred meters of an assault they were toast. Mediums still had more agility but I could usually land enough damage to scare them off. As such, I shortly followed up by purchasing the other two to fully elite the mechs, totalling around ~30 million cbills (~300 games, ~50 hours of play). This was obviously a significant investment given that PGI expects this amount of time to be invested for these "end game" mechs (aspect 2), but for the product offered at the time it was worth it.

But with this latest update my Victors have been significantly hampered, especially against the mediums I could previously have a chance against. This wasn't a change I was able to forsee at all when I initially made the very large investment, but because PGI is still tinkering with their released game (aspect 3) I now have mechs significantly less enjoyable to me than when I bought them.

Overall, it's really frustrating and is just one more obstacle to my wallet opening any more for this game.

[Simbacca]

Like others, I am saddened by the over-the-top nerf to the Victor. A 10% reduction I can see, but 20% is too much. Based on how the classes were created, the lowest tonnage tier of each class was a "Super" tier of the previous class - hence their larger than usual class engine cap and manoeuvring abilities.

IE:
40 Tons = Super Light (aka Cicada)
60 Tons = Super Medium (aka Dragon and Quickdraw)
80 Tons = Super Heavy (aka Victor and Awesome)

Edited by Simbacca, 02 April 2014 - 08:03 AM.

[DONTOR]

I agree that the speed nerfs were a bit too much. It does feel more like an assult now, although if historcally it was an agile brawling assult then it should be restored.
The JJ nerfs did slightly reduce the effectiveness of Poptarts mostly because of the reduced rate of recharge.

[Amsro]

Iqfish, on 02 April 2014 - 04:20 AM, said:

The Victor was as agile as a medium, way more agile and fast than many Heavy Mechs and this is not the way an Assault mech is supposed to work.

I still love my DS and my other Victors, just get over it and adapt.

Yes just keep nerfing the game into oblivion, ADAPT. SmallLaserWarriorOnline.

This type of statement is obvious trolling.

Victor should NEVER be the same agility as the Atlas. So either the Atlas + rest of assaults need less agility + heavies a tone down. Or the victor needs some agility back. It is terribly slow.

If you have "adapted" then likely you were already AC/5 PPC'ing anyhow. Poptarts are nill effected by the change once again showing Paul has no clue how to balance his game.

[Damocles69]

If they wanted to nerf it, it should have been accomplished through its jjs.

Take away a victor's mobility and you take away the one thing that made it unique among assaults .

Better off with a ctf-3d or a 733c every time now. The victor brought something different to the table. Not better or worse just different. Now it is just strictly worse than other options

[Trauglodyte]

Vrbas, on 01 April 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

I watched the Developer Video Log, I do not agree with their reasoning for reducing the agility of the Victor. I'd like to explain why.

First, the Victor was known for being an agile mech. It is now inline with the Atlas as far as torso-movement is concerned, a mech weighing 20 tons heavier. Second, the Victor doesn't have a great deal of armor to begin with, which ties back to my point #1: it's agility helped it's survivability (the Awesome suffers a similar "armor disadvantage" but that's due to it's profile more than anything). Third, making the Victor less agile isn't going to address poptarting in the positive way you may think it is. Poptarting is typically a 400meter and greater issue. At that distance, people are sniping which doesn't really require a good deal of mobility to begin with since it's more fine motoring. Fourth, the Victor was a good brawler (both in MWO and referenced as such in Lore). With these agility nerfs, brawling in a Victor is like brawling in an Atlas... with 20 tons less of everything.

I truly hope MWO reconsiders the Victor mobility changes, as it was one of my most prized mechs due to it's agility and brawling potential. I understand that they are trying to address the poptart meta, but in doing so they have inadvertently crippled the brawling capabilities of this mech.

It is stunning to think that you're looking at the Victor either in a vacuum or simply comparing it to other Assault mechs. The problem wasn't how agile you thought it was in comparison to the other Assault mechs. The problem is, in actuality, how agile it was in comparison to other mechs lighter than it. For 80 tons, you were running around in a mech with the same speed and equal, or even better, agility than 50 ton mechs while having the benefit of both broken JJs (they're still not balanced yet), more armor, and greater weapons payload. The truth is that Assault mechs should be lumbering like with the agility of molasses because the benefits that you get from weight should be countered by your lack of ability to move. That isn't to say that the Victor should move like an Atlas but it shouldn't be far off, speed not withstanding.

Heavy mechs are about to get the same treatment which is going to be yet another buff for Medium mechs. But, to hammer home the point about why the change was made, in reality, the game came down to jump capable Lights (Jenners and Firestarters; sometimes Spiders), the premiere jump capable Medium (Shadowhawk), the jump capable Heavy (Cataphract 3D), and the jump capable Assaults (Victor and Highlander). The Highlander was the only one of that group that couldn't move worth a damn but it also didn't need to due to its weapons payload. The rest were fast, agile, and quick.

In the end, think of it as less of a "boo hoo, my Victor" and more of a "ok, anything without JJs and those poor Medium mechs just got a little bit better". PGI needed to reset the playing field and they, to a point, have.

[Liev Andropov]

Trauglodyte, on 02 April 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

The problem is, in actuality, how agile it was in comparison to other mechs lighter than it. For 80 tons, you were running around in a mech with the same speed and equal, or even better, agility than 50 ton mechs while having the benefit of both broken JJs (they're still not balanced yet), more armor, and greater weapons payload.

I'm going to say no dice on this bit. Upper torso agility was great on the Victor but turning and accel/decel were still within sensical limits for an assault, in that you could track a medium with your upper body but good luck rotating and keeping a bead on it if it was trying to get behind you.

[JayVrb]

Trauglodyte, on 02 April 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

...That isn't to say that the Victor should move like an Atlas but it shouldn't be far off...

Except that's exactly what it's doing now... with only jump-jets to offset the 20 ton difference.

Edited by Vrbas, 02 April 2014 - 09:50 AM.

[Sam Slade]

Marmon Rzohr, on 02 April 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

, it has JJs, great hitboxes and good hardpoints.... what more could you want ?

more tonnage... so I use a Highlander... because it does the same thing only better.

[Jonathan Paine]

I think most of us can agree that nerfing turning mobility did not affect pop tarting, but definitely harmed mobile brawling. Brawling is currently far from over powered, while pinpoint pop tarting remains a dominant factor of mwo.

Paul: please wield the nerf bat with more forethought in the future.

[Marmon Rzohr]

Sam Slade, on 02 April 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

more tonnage... so I use a Highlander... because it does the same thing only better.

The HGN is more tanky, but much less mobile. When matches depend on quick reactions or repositioning the HGN will fall flat where the Victors would not. Also the HGN is much worse for poptarting after the nerfs.

[tayhimself]

Does a Victor really feel as slow as an Atlas now? Or are you guys exaggerating.

I played a few drops and it still seems more agile (with an XL325 and an XL360) than my Heavy Metal with an XL330. Poor HGN-HeavyMetal was nerfed hard...

[FireSlade]

tayhimself, on 02 April 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Does a Victor really feel as slow as an Atlas now? Or are you guys exaggerating.

I played a few drops and it still seems more agile (with an XL325 and an XL360) than my Heavy Metal with an XL330. Poor HGN-HeavyMetal was nerfed hard...

Try snap twisting, shooting your AC20 then swinging back as fast as you can. You should notice that it is not much faster, if any, than your Heavy Metal. It was not so much the turn speed (though between the JJ nerf and the mobility nerfs sometimes it is tough to track mediums) that was hurt but more the twist speed.

[Maggiman]

Oh come on, as sluggish as an atlas? Bullshit! My Viki is still a lot faster and way more agile than an atlas.
And while i think 10% would have been enough to keep it more separated from the Highlander, my Viktor is still my best Mech even while (or especially while) brawling.

Think about it: Most Mechs have a rock paper scissors style counter but i can't think of any mech that clearly outperforms the viktor... (Thoug admittedly YMMV and Dakkaphracts hurt a lot till they are dead)

Oh and one other thing: If those nerfs where enough to bring your viktor from "best there is" to "absolutely useless" i think you lack the ability to adapt.

[Gas Guzzler]

Iqfish, on 02 April 2014 - 04:20 AM, said:

The Victor was as agile as a medium, way more agile and fast than many Heavy Mechs and this is not the way an Assault mech is supposed to work.

I still love my DS and my other Victors, just get over it and adapt.

Really? So my dragon slayer with an XL 330 was as agile as my Griffin with an XL 330? Hmm I had not noticed that....

tayhimself, on 02 April 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Does a Victor really feel as slow as an Atlas now? Or are you guys exaggerating.

I played a few drops and it still seems more agile (with an XL325 and an XL360) than my Heavy Metal with an XL330. Poor HGN-HeavyMetal was nerfed hard...

Yeah, an 80 tonner with an XL 360 better feel a lot more agile than a 90 tonner with an XL 330. HGN was not nerfed as hard as the VTR, maybe with the jump jets yeah, but the Victor was really slammed. Seriously 10% is understandable, but 20%??? Its not just twist speed either, its turn speed as well.

Its not as bad as an Atlas, but come one, twist speed is determined by tonnage and engine size. So take an 80 tonner and put a huge engine in it and yes it will twist faster than a lighter mech with a small engine. That is the point of dropping a fat XL in there!

Atlas with a STD 300 has a torso yaw speed of 60 deg/s
Victor with a STD 320 has a torso yaw speed of 64 deg/s
Orion with a STD 300 has a torso yaw speed of 80 deg/s

Does that seem right to you guys? I feel like the Victor should be much closer to the Orion than the Atlas.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 April 2014 - 12:43 PM.