347 replies to this topic

[Truesight]

You know, now that they have nerfed the Victor to "Atlas speed", i am really interrested to see, what they are going to do to said Atlas in the next nerf row...

And by the way, you know most heavys move like Mediums (or not much slower)...

There is more to come!

[Ancih]

data picked on mwo.smurfy-net.de
all Victor variants have the same turning, torso twist, and arm speed

for reference here the values with stock engine 320:

Walking Speed: 64.8 kph (tweak 71.3 kph)
Turning Speed: 45.86 °/s (full 360° in 7.85 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 64°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 36°/s
Arm Yaw/Pitch Speed: 162°/s

and also, while we are at it and just for the fun of it, the values with max engine 385:

Walking Speed: 78.0 kph (tweak 85.8 kph)
Turning Speed: 55.18 °/s (full 360° in 6.52 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 77°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 43°/s
Arm Yaw/Pitch Speed: 194°/s

but let's use the 300 engine to compare the Victor to other chassis:

Walking Speed: 60.7 kph (tweak 66.8 kph)
Turning Speed: 42.99 °/s (full 360° in 8.37 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 60°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 33°/s
Arm Yaw/Pitch Speed: 151°/s


Let's start with the Atlas, because I have seen it used as example a few posts above and since its the heaviest mech it give an interesting perspective at the Victor:

Stock engine happens to be a 300 too :

Walking Speed: 48.6 kph (tweak 53.5 kph)
Turning Speed: 34.39 °/s (full 360° in 10.47 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 60°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 33°/s
Arm Yaw/Pitch Speed: 135°/s

Equipped with same engine size, Atlas as expected walks slower, turns slower, and has slower arms too, BUT the torso speed is the same as the Victor.


Next, the Awesome the other 80 tons mech, equipped with a 300 engine (which is also max for all but the 9M and PB variants):

Walking Speed: 60.7 kph (tweak 66.8 kph)
Turning Speed: 42.99 °/s (full 360° in 8.37 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 82°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 46°/s
Arm Yaw/Pitch Speed: 168°/s

So... has the same walking and turning speed as the Victor but has 35% faster moving torso and 10% faster arms?? why is the Awesome more agile than the Victor?? I have no idea. Even more mysterious, when compared to the Victor with a maxed 385 engine, is its torso speed: Torso Yaw is 5°/s faster and Torso Pitch 3°/s faster... again why? isn't the Victor supposed to be the most agile of the two?


Let's move on to the 85 tons Stalkers and Battlemasters (they both have the exact same speed in all categories aside for the BLR-1G variant and the Misery), still using 300 engine:

Walking Speed: 57.2 kph (tweak 62.9 kph)
Turning Speed: 40.46 °/s (full 360° in 8.90 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 70°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 39°/s
Arm Yaw/ Pitch Speed: 158°/s

the Stalker and the Battlemaster do, as expected since they are 5 tons heavier, walk and turn slower but surprisingly have faster moving torso and arms than a Victor... hhmmm ok


Next The Highlander, it was also hit with a torso speed nerf (but -10% for all variant except the 733C)

Walking Speed: 54.0 kph (tweak 59.4 kph)
Turning Speed: 38.22 °/s (full 360° in 9.42 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 60°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 33°/s
Arm Yaw/ Pitch Speed: 150°/s

Walk and turn speed and also arm speed are normal and proportional to weight and engine size, but not the torso speed which is also, like the Victor, the exact same as the Atlas...

gonna skip the Banshee cause its late but check numbers down at the bottom.


So the numbers say that the Victor (and Highlander) turning speed is now fine and dandy, proportional to weight across all chassis like it should, but the torso and arm speed of the Victor compared to other assault are not at all in line, guess why? those 20% torso and 10% arm nerfs was not justified, only for the turning speed nerf was because is wasn't really a nerf is was removing a unfair agility advantage (especially on a jump-jet chassis).

Arm speed pre nerf was 168°/s (same as the Awesome and proportional to other assault chassis, now 151°/s), Torso Yaw at 75°/s (now 60°/s) and Torso Pitch at 42°/s (now 33°/s). The real problem was partially the turning speed (which was basically a +25% ghost quirk to the Victor and needed to be brought back in line) and partially was and still is the cap for engine is a bit too high at 385 and should probably be lowered by around 15/25 rating to get 360 or 350 max and avoid that "too good for assault" reachable agility. The arm and torso speed nerf were not justified.

so again but by categories:

Torso Yaw Speed @300:

80 Victor: 60°/s
80 Awesome: 82°/s
85 Stalker / Battlemaster: 70°/s
90 Highlander: 60°/s
95 Banshee: 63°/s
100 Atlas: 60°/s

Torso Pitch Speed @300:

80 Victor: 33°/s
80 Awesome: 46°/s
85 Stalker / Battlemaster: 39°/s
90 Highlander: 33°/s
95 Banshee: 35°/s
100 Atlas: 33°/s

Arm Speed @300:

80 Victor: 151°/s
80 Awesome: 168°/s
85 Stalker / Battlemaster: 158°/s
90 Highlander: 150°/s
95 Banshee: 142°/s
100 Atlas: 135°/s

Turn Speed @300

80 Victor: 42.99 °/s 8.37 s
80 Awesome: 42.99 °/s 8.37 s
85 Stalker / Battlemaster: 40.46 °/s 8.90 s
90 Highlander: 38.22 °/s 9.42 s
95 Banshee: 36.21 °/s 9.94 s
100 Atlas: 34.39 °/s 10.47 s

My conclusions are that walk and turning speed, quirks aside obviously, are balanced now and proportional to engine rating and weight of the chassis across all assault mechs. The turn speed nerf was indeed justified. Torso speed for Victors and Highlanders are over nerfed by 20% and Arm Speed for Victors over nerfed by 10%.

Again pre nerf values were nowhere near medium class range:

Torso Yaw at 75°/s (now 60°/s)
Torso Pitch at 42°/s (now 33°/s)
Arm speed pre nerf was 168°/s (same as the Awesome and proportional to other assault chassis, now 151°/s)


edited for pre nerf torso speed corrections

Edited by Ancih, 03 April 2014 - 09:38 AM.

[DeathlyEyes]

Ancih, on 03 April 2014 - 01:44 AM, said:

My conlusions are that walk and turning speed, quirks aside obviously, are balanced now and proportional to engine rating and weight of the chassis across all assault mechs. The turn speed nerf was indeed justified. Torso speed for Victors and Highlanders are over nerfed by 20% and Arm Speed for Victors over nerfed by 10%.

What is unusual is that in game my turn speeds on the Atlas and Victor in game with xl 325s are identical or close enough that the graph in game doesn't really show any difference

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 03 April 2014 - 06:54 AM.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

I think its like the comparison of a Victor with a big XL engine (350-370) vs say a Centurion with the 215 it comes with or whatever. Not a good comparison but I think that is what they didn't like.

I agree its a poor comparison.

Ancih, on 03 April 2014 - 01:44 AM, said:

data picked on mwo.smurfy-net.de
all Victor variants have the same turning, torso twist, and arm speed

for reference here the values with stock engine 320:

Walking Speed: 64.8 kph (tweak 71.3 kph)
Turning Speed: 45.86 °/s (full 360° in 7.85 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 64°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 36°/s
Arm Yaw/Pitch Speed: 162°/s

and also, while we are at it and just for the fun of it, the values with max engine 385:

Walking Speed: 78.0 kph (tweak 85.8 kph)
Turning Speed: 55.18 °/s (full 360° in 6.52 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 77°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 43°/s
Arm Yaw/Pitch Speed: 194°/s

but let's use the 300 engine to compare the Victor to other chassis:

Walking Speed: 60.7 kph (tweak 66.8 kph)
Turning Speed: 42.99 °/s (full 360° in 8.37 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 60°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 33°/s
Arm Yaw/Pitch Speed: 151°/s


Let's start with the Atlas, because I have seen it used as example a few posts above and since its the heaviest mech it give an interesting perspective at the Victor:

Stock engine happens to be a 300 too :

Walking Speed: 48.6 kph (tweak 53.5 kph)
Turning Speed: 34.39 °/s (full 360° in 10.47 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 60°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 33°/s
Arm Yaw/Pitch Speed: 135°/s

Equipped with same engine size, Atlas as expected walks slower, turns slower, and has slower arms too, BUT the torso speed is the same as the Victor.


Next, the Awesome the other 80 tons mech, equipped with a 300 engine (which is also max for all but the 9M and PB variants):

Walking Speed: 60.7 kph (tweak 66.8 kph)
Turning Speed: 42.99 °/s (full 360° in 8.37 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 82°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 46°/s
Arm Yaw/Pitch Speed: 168°/s

So... has the same walking and turning speed as the Victor but has 35% faster moving torso and 10% faster arms?? why is the Awesome more agile than the Victor?? I have no idea. Even more mysterious, when compared to the Victor with a maxed 385 engine, is its torso speed: Torso Yaw is 5°/s faster and Torso Pitch 3°/s faster... again why? isn't the Victor supposed to be the most agile of the two?


Let's move on to the 85 tons Stalkers and Battlemasters (they both have the exact same speed in all categories aside for the BLR-1G variant and the Misery), still using 300 engine:

Walking Speed: 57.2 kph (tweak 62.9 kph)
Turning Speed: 40.46 °/s (full 360° in 8.90 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 70°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 39°/s
Arm Yaw/ Pitch Speed: 158°/s

the Stalker and the Battlemaster do, as expected since they are 5 tons heavier, walk and turn slower but suprisingly have faster moving torso and arms than a Victor... hhmmm ok


Next The Highlander, it was also hit with a torso speed nerf (but -10% for all variant exept the 733C)

Walking Speed: 54.0 kph (tweak 59.4 kph)
Turning Speed: 38.22 °/s (full 360° in 9.42 s)
Torso Yaw Speed: 60°/s
Torso Pitch Speed: 33°/s
Arm Yaw/ Pitch Speed: 150°/s

Walk and turn speed and also arm speed are normal and proportional to weight and engine size, but not the torso speed which is also, like the Victor, the exact same as the Atlas...

gonna skip the Banshee cause its late but check numbers down at the bottom.


So the numbers say that the Victor (and Highlander) turning speed is now fine and dandy, proportional to weight across all chassis like it should, but the torso and arm speed of the Victor compared to other assault are not at all in line, guess why? those 20% torso and 10% arm nerfs was not justified, only for the turning speed nerf was because is wasn't really a nerf is was removing a unfair agility advantage (espacially on a jumpjet chassis).

Arm speed pre nerf was 168°/s (same as the Awesome and proportional to other assault chassis, now 151°/s), Torso Yaw at 67°/s (now 60°/s) and Torso Pitch at 37°/s (now 33°/s). The real problem was partially the turning speed (which was basically a +25% ghost quirk to the Victor and needed to be brought back in line) and partially was and still is the cap for engine is a bit too high at 385 and should probably be lowered by around 15/25 rating to get 360 or 350 max and avoid that "too good for assault" reachable agility. The arm and torso speed nerf were not justified.

so again but by categories:

Torso Yaw Speed @300:

80 Victor: 60°/s
80 Awesome: 82°/s
85 Stalker / Battlemaster: 70°/s
90 Highlander: 60°/s
95 Banshee: 63°/s
100 Atlas: 60°/s

Torso Pitch Speed @300:

80 Victor: 33°/s
80 Awesome: 46°/s
85 Stalker / Battlemaster: 39°/s
90 Highlander: 33°/s
95 Banshee: 35°/s
100 Atlas: 33°/s

Arm Speed @300:

80 Victor: 151°/s
80 Awesome: 168°/s
85 Stalker / Battlemaster: 158°/s
90 Highlander: 150°/s
95 Banshee: 142°/s
100 Atlas: 135°/s

Turn Speed @300

80 Victor: 42.99 °/s 8.37 s
80 Awesome: 42.99 °/s 8.37 s
85 Stalker / Battlemaster: 40.46 °/s 8.90 s
90 Highlander: 38.22 °/s 9.42 s
95 Banshee: 36.21 °/s 9.94 s
100 Atlas: 34.39 °/s 10.47 s

My conlusions are that walk and turning speed, quirks aside obviously, are balanced now and proportional to engine rating and weight of the chassis across all assault mechs. The turn speed nerf was indeed justified. Torso speed for Victors and Highlanders are over nerfed by 20% and Arm Speed for Victors over nerfed by 10%.

Great post.

Here's the data in a table:

Tonage	80	80	85	85	90	95	100
Mech	Victor	Awesome	Battlemaster	Stalker	Highlander	Banshee	Atlas
Engine	300	300	300	300	300	300	300
Torso Yaw Speed	60° /s	82° /s	70° /s	70° /s	60° /s	63° /s	60° /s
Torso Pitch Speed	33° /s	46° /s	39° /s	39° /s	33° /s	35° /s	33° /s
Arm Speed	151° /s	168° /s	158° /s	158° /s	150° /s	142° /s	135° /s
Turn Speed	42.99 °/s 8.37 s	42.99 °/s 8.37 s	40.46 °/s 8.90 s	40.46 °/s 8.90 s	38.22 °/s 9.42 s	36.21 °/s 9.94 s	34.39 °/s 10.47 s

In an effort to give the awesome something unique, while reducing the nerfs the Victor received, I think something like this would work:

Victor

Torso Yaw Speed 60° /s > 76° /s
Torso Pitch Speed 33° /s > 42° /s
Arm Speed 151° /s > 163° /s

Edited by Ultimatum X, 03 April 2014 - 04:06 PM.

[MisterPlanetarian]

IMO: The narrower your twist range the faster you should twist. Actuated arms with hardpoints need to be factored in aswell to slow your twist speed.

[Gas Guzzler]

MisterPlanetarian, on 03 April 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

IMO: The narrower your twist range the faster you should twist. Actuated arms with hardpoints need to be factored in aswell to slow your twist speed.

Interesting point. I don't know if that makes sense, but if we want to go that route, Atlas and Awesome and Battlemaster all have fully actuated arms. Victor, not so much.

[Ancih]

nice table Ultimatum X

[Ultimax]

Ancih, on 03 April 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

nice table Ultimatum X

Thank you, and thanks for all of the data points!

[Joseph Mallan]

Ultimatum X, on 03 April 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

I agree its a poor comparison.



[size=4]

Great post.

Here's the data in a table:

Tonage	80	80	85	85	90	95	100
Mech	Victor	Awesome	Battlemaster	Stalker	Highlander	Banshee	Atlas
Engine	300	300	300	300	300	300	300
Torso Yaw Speed	60° /s	82° /s	70° /s	70° /s	60° /s	63° /s	60° /s
Torso Pitch Speed	33° /s	46° /s	39° /s	39° /s	33° /s	35° /s	33° /s
Arm Speed	151° /s	168° /s	158° /s	158° /s	150° /s	142° /s	135° /s
Turn Speed	42.99 °/s 8.37 s	42.99 °/s 8.37 s	40.46 °/s 8.90 s	40.46 °/s 8.90 s	38.22 °/s 9.42 s	36.21 °/s 9.94 s	34.39 °/s 10.47 s

In an effort to give the awesome something unique, while reducing the nerfs the Victor received, I think something like this would work:

Victor

Torso Yaw Speed 60° /s > 76° /s
Torso Pitch Speed 33° /s > 42° /s
Arm Speed 151° /s > 163° /s

Its a nice table... but an Awesome is a slower moving(smaller engine) Mech than a Victor and a Battlemaster... why would it have such a significantly higher twist speed?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 April 2014 - 09:23 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 April 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Its a nice table... but an Awesome is a slower moving(smaller engine) Mech than a Victor and a Battlemaster... why would it have such a significantly higher twist speed?

All mechs here have the same engine equipped for comparison purposes. We are trying to point out that the Victor twists too slow

[Ancih]

Ultimatum X, on 03 April 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

I agree its a poor comparison. [size=4] Great post. Here's the data in a table:

Tonage	80	80	85	85	90	95	100
Mech	Victor	Awesome	Battlemaster	Stalker	Highlander	Banshee	Atlas
Engine	300	300	300	300	300	300	300
Torso Yaw Speed	60° /s	82° /s	70° /s	70° /s	60° /s	63° /s	60° /s
Torso Pitch Speed	33° /s	46° /s	39° /s	39° /s	33° /s	35° /s	33° /s
Arm Speed	151° /s	168° /s	158° /s	158° /s	150° /s	142° /s	135° /s
Turn Speed	42.99 °/s 8.37 s	42.99 °/s 8.37 s	40.46 °/s 8.90 s	40.46 °/s 8.90 s	38.22 °/s 9.42 s	36.21 °/s 9.94 s	34.39 °/s 10.47 s

In an effort to give the awesome something unique, while reducing the nerfs the Victor received, I think something like this would work: Victor Torso Yaw Speed 60° /s > 76° /s Torso Pitch Speed 33° /s > 42° /s Arm Speed 151° /s > 163° /s

I would suggest something even more simple; revert back torso and arm speed to pre nerf values (very close to the numbers you suggested:


Torso Yaw at 75°/s (now 60°/s)
Torso Pitch at 42°/s (now 33°/s)
Arm speed at 168°/s (again same as the Awesome and proportional by weight to other assault chassis, now 151°/s)

Edited by Ancih, 03 April 2014 - 09:58 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 April 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

All mechs here have the same engine equipped for comparison purposes. We are trying to point out that the Victor twists too slow

Ok... I swear the one I linked had the Awesome where the Victor is!!!! 3 Days off of work since Feb 3^rd is Fing up my brain man!!!

[Gas Guzzler]

Ancih, on 03 April 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

I would suggest something even more simple; revert back torso and arm speed to pre nerf values (very close to the numbers you suggested:


Torso Yaw at 75°/s (now 60°/s)
Torso Pitch at 42°/s (now 33°/s)
Arm speed at 168°/s (again same as the Awesome and proportional by weight to other assault chassis, now 151°/s)

Yeah, I would just be happy with halfway between where it is now and where the Awesome is at. Still a reduction from default, but a little more reasonable.

[xe N on]

Someone should report this finding in the bug report section. I think, this is a bug.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ultimatum, do you want to post your beautiful table to the bug section? I'm down to treat this as a bug

[LastPaladin]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 01 April 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

I recently emailed the support email account notifying PGI that I would no longer purchase any mechs with MC in the future...

I'm with you. Until PGI stops tossing indiscriminate nerf bombs at things I have paid for, I have no incentive to spend any more money. I don't mind that stuff much in subscription games, because the items/classes I use are just ground out in the game, so it's only a waste of my time when something gets nerfed. Here, where I have paid real money for something, I expect it to perform as advertised, or to be compensated for reductions in functionality.

[Shae Starfyre]

Please post your findings to the bug report. I, too, feel the loss.

I had before and after the nerf in my Victor DS a 375 XL configuration, before the nerf it was freaky agile, but afterwards... I pilot my Atlas DDC.

Edited by Aphoticus, 03 April 2014 - 11:15 AM.

[catspider]

They drastically changed victors and the Dragonslayer months after it was released - I got a refund for my clan package two days later (the support team was great btw).

Personally i do not feel the severity of the changes was warranted, and they especially punished the Dragon Slayer as it has torso mounted lasers. I have used it as a jump sniper after the changes - better than ever. Tried using it as a brawler.. works ok but you're better off in any other victor.

To me this felt like a punishment for those who invested real money in a product - to have it drastically altered without any warning long after it was released. I am happy people put real money into the game, as it will keep it alive in whatever form it takes or doesn't - however i for one will play for "free" from now on.

Edited by catspider, 03 April 2014 - 11:24 AM.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 April 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Ultimatum, do you want to post your beautiful table to the bug section? I'm down to treat this as a bug

I suppose it's worth a shot, I'll have it posted there sometime today - probably evening EST.

[Ancih]

And for those who are STILL not convinced

Let's take another view at it @ 385 this time, to view from yet another angle and compare torso and arm speed relative to the Battlemaster give us another perspective:

Victor with 385
Torso Yaw: 96°/s (now 77°/s)
Torso Pitch: 54°/s (now 43°/s)
Arm Speed: 216°/s (now 194°/s)

Battlemaster with 385
Torso Yaw: 90°/s
Torso Pitch: 50°/s
Arm Speed: 203°/s


Now, another angle with Heavies equipped with a 300

Victor
Torso Yaw: 75°/s (now 60°/s)
Torso Pitch: 42°/s (now 33°/s)
Arm speed: 168°/s (now 151°/s)

Cataphract
Torso Yaw: 85°/s
Torso Pitch: 48°/s
Arm Speed: 192°/s

Orion
Torso Yaw: 80°/s
Torso Pitch: 45°/s
Arm Speed: 180°/s


Let's also see with those Mediums since some people claimed that Victor pre nerf was as agile as a Medium:

55 tons @300:
BTW All 55 tons Chassis share the same Turn and Walk speed values:
Turn Speed: 62.54 °/s 5.76 s
Walk Speed: 88.4 kph (97.2 kph)

Shadow Hawk:
Torso Yaw: 136°/s
Torso Pitch: 61°/s
Arm Speed: 245°/s

Wolverine:
Torso Yaw: 136°/s
Torso Pitch: 61°/s
Arm Speed: 245°/s

Griffin:
Torso Yaw: 119°/s (slowest of the mediums but still faster with a 300 than Victor with 385 @ pre-nerf: 96°/s live: 77°/s)
Torso Pitch: 61°/s
Arm Speed: 245°/s

Kintaro:
Torso Yaw: 136°/s
Torso Pitch: 61°/s
Arm Speed: 245°/s

I don't think I need to go on to prove my point now, don't I? another table or graph maybe?