347 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Ancih, on 03 April 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

And for those who are STILL not convinced

Let's take another view at it @ 385 this time, to view from yet another angle and compare torso and arm speed relative to the Battlemaster give us another perspective:

Victor with 385
Torso Yaw: 96°/s (now 77°/s)
Torso Pitch: 54°/s (now 43°/s)
Arm Speed: 216°/s (now 194°/s)

Battlemaster with 385
Torso Yaw: 90°/s
Torso Pitch: 50°/s
Arm Speed: 203°/s


Now, another angle with Heavies equipped with a 300

Victor
Torso Yaw: 75°/s (now 60°/s)
Torso Pitch: 42°/s (now 33°/s)
Arm speed: 168°/s (now 151°/s)

Cataphract
Torso Yaw: 85°/s
Torso Pitch: 48°/s
Arm Speed: 192°/s

Orion
Torso Yaw: 80°/s
Torso Pitch: 45°/s
Arm Speed: 180°/s


Let's also see with those Mediums since some people claimed that Victor pre nerf was as agile as a Medium:

55 tons @300:
BTW All 55 tons Chassis share the same Turn and Walk speed values:
Turn Speed: 62.54 °/s 5.76 s
Walk Speed: 88.4 kph (97.2 kph)

Shadow Hawk:
Torso Yaw: 136°/s
Torso Pitch: 61°/s
Arm Speed: 245°/s

Wolverine:
Torso Yaw: 136°/s
Torso Pitch: 61°/s
Arm Speed: 245°/s

Griffin:
Torso Yaw: 119°/s (slowest of the mediums but still faster with a 300 than Victor with 385 @ pre-nerf: 96°/s live: 77°/s)
Torso Pitch: 61°/s
Arm Speed: 245°/s

Kintaro:
Torso Yaw: 136°/s
Torso Pitch: 61°/s
Arm Speed: 245°/s

I don't think I need to go on to prove my point now, don't I? another table or graph maybe?

Righteous

[Iskareot]

In the end we learned something here.

That even if you buy a mech and PAY MONEY FOR IT.... they can change at any given time ANYTHING THEY WANT ON IT AND YOU CANT DO SHIT ABOUT IT.

Bottom line what you buy even is not yours and the rented item can be changed even if it ***** you over.

[Ancih]

Iskareot, on 03 April 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

In the end we learned something here.

That even if you buy a mech and PAY MONEY FOR IT.... they can change at any given time ANYTHING THEY WANT ON IT AND YOU CANT DO SHIT ABOUT IT.

Bottom line what you buy even is not yours and the rented item can be changed even if it ***** you over.

I bet that if the changes was justified and rotational, a good decision for the gameplay balance, it would be somehow easier to swallow, like the turn speed for example. But the unjustified arm and torso speed nerfs feel like a random change that wasn't really well thought through and that's frustrating indeed.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ancih, on 03 April 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

I bet that if the changes was justified and rotational, a good decision for the gameplay balance, it would be somehow easier to swallow, like the turn speed for example. But the unjustified arm and torso speed nerfs feel like a random change that wasn't really well thought through and that's frustrating indeed.

Yeah, I agree.

BTW, thanks for backing up my tweets to Russ

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 03 April 2014 - 04:20 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

it does seem like a quick knee jerk reaction nurf without a lot of careful thought.

[Ancih]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 April 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:

Yeah, I agree.

BTW, thanks for backing up my tweets to Russ

hey no problem man, we want the same thing after all: well balanced Victors and Highlanders chassis to play with and against Let's hope they reconsider for the sake of chassis variety and fairness.

[Prezimonto]

Trauglodyte, on 02 April 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

The Victor was more nimble than the Awesome 9M when they have the same engine caps and weigh the same. That isn't balance.

The problem is that the Victor is now quite a bit less nimble than the 9M with the same engine caps. That also isn't balance.

[Aiden Skye]

Victors are Fugly. Could care less what PGI does to them!

[El Bandito]

Prezimonto, on 03 April 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

The problem is that the Victor is now quite a bit less nimble than the 9M with the same engine caps. That also isn't balance.

Victor has the edge in being JJ capable and has smaller profile for an assault. I could call that balance, unorthodox it might be.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 April 2014 - 06:05 PM.

[RiotHero]

The Victors are may only assault mechs and I really never played them since I mastered them. Well, I wanted to see if the changes did anything to my only victor poptart build, the 9K, it didn't.

I only had one kill but, I had 9 assists and 994dmg. Since the PPC's have a min range I just never let myself get into a brawl and it doesn't even matter that my turn speed is reduced. I only have 10 games played in it since the stat reset but it has a 563dmg per game average, granted only a 1.33 kd but the 2.33 wl is nice.

Basically the changes did nothing to the victor in the role that the overwhelming majority uses it in. Sure it might be a bad brawler but, why take a victor to brawl in the first place? It wasn't a good assault for that before the changes.

[Prezimonto]

El Bandito, on 03 April 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

Victor has the edge in being JJ capable and has smaller profile for an assault. I could call that balance, unorthodox it might be.

Wait, so it's balanced against the bar-none worst mech in the game?

RiotHero, on 03 April 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

Sure it might be a bad brawler but, why take a victor to brawl in the first place? It wasn't a good assault for that before the changes.

I beg to differ, it was one of the most effective brawlers in the game, being beaten out only by some specialty builds with 3+ ballistics.

Which is why I don't complain that it got a small nerf to mobility, but it's also possible that the Victor was really in a sweet spot of tonnage vs. mobility vs. survivability for this game's current state.

What I hate seeing is that a mech, traditionally meant to be a brawler and excelling in that role, is nerfed in brawling because it's ALSO highly effective in firesupport/poptarting. I'd much rather see the poptarting be nerfed and the much more difficult and niche role of brawler preserved.

Edited by Prezimonto, 03 April 2014 - 06:44 PM.

[El Bandito]

Prezimonto, on 03 April 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

I'd much rather see the poptarting be nerfed and the much more difficult and niche role of brawler preserved.

Now that will cause huge amount of shitstorm from those so called "skilled" players. Let's wait until the April 15 patch.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 April 2014 - 07:10 PM.

[RiotHero]

Prezimonto, on 03 April 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

Wait, so it's balanced against the bar-none worst mech in the game?



I beg to differ, it was one of the most effective brawlers in the game, being beaten out only by some specialty builds with 3+ ballistics.

Which is why I don't complain that it got a small nerf to mobility, but it's also possible that the Victor was really in a sweet spot of tonnage vs. mobility vs. survivability for this game's current state.

What I hate seeing is that a mech, traditionally meant to be a brawler and excelling in that role, is nerfed in brawling because it's ALSO highly effective in firesupport/poptarting. I'd much rather see the poptarting be nerfed and the much more difficult and niche role of brawler preserved.

Well, I can admit that my AC20+2xLPL was my first ever mech to break 1k. I also had a 6 kill game with it. This was strictly a brawler/fast striker(for an assault) type build and had a couple jj for mobility. You just don't see any actual brawler builds with it or any jack of all trades type builds. In that class it's hard to bring the pain with a standard engine when you are the smallest. That's the main reason I wouldn't want to brawl with one.

The main concern was poptarts and the nerf did nothing that I can see.

[Prezimonto]

I ran AC20/2xLL with AMS and full JJ. It was tons of fun, and now it's not. I expected a nerf to bring them in line with the 9M, not a Highlander. The Victor is supposed to be a highly mobile close range killer, not a medium/long range fire support mech.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 April 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Ultimatum, do you want to post your beautiful table to the bug section? I'm down to treat this as a bug

I posted the table in SLDF's thread in bug reports.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 03 April 2014 - 08:16 PM.

[Ransack]

RiotHero, on 03 April 2014 - 07:16 PM, said:

The main concern was poptarts and the nerf did nothing that I can see.

Aaaand this is the problem.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Was poptarting really the reason PGI nerfed the Victor? Did they say that, or are people assuming this because they nerfed the Highlander for poptarting?

I ask because the Victor nerf seems to be designed to make it perform more like other mechs in it's class (other Assaults) and not like a relatively high powered and high armored Heavy mech.

I really don't think poptarting played a role in this nerf. Maybe it did, but I doubt it (again if someone has a tweet from PGI or a patch note saying the nerf was poptart related, then I suppose I am wrong. I just never saw anything along those lines.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 03 April 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

Victor has the edge in being JJ capable and has smaller profile for an assault. I could call that balance, unorthodox it might be.

Slight edge, JJs do not help spread damage like they used to. I think something like -10% twist speed is warranted, but not -20%. It should not be THAT much more sluggish than an Awesome considering they are the same weight.

I'm tired of people saying the Victor needs to perform like an "Assault". Its 80 tons. 5 tons out of the heavy class. It should actually perform closer to an Orion than an Atlas. As it stands now, the Victors twist speed for a given engine is the same as an Atlas, and that is wrong. It is the lightest assault and torso twists like the heaviest assault. Its not a matter of performing like an assault, it should perform like its 80 tons.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 April 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

Slight edge, JJs do not help spread damage like they used to.  I think something like -10% twist speed is warranted, but not -20%.  It should not be THAT much more sluggish than an Awesome considering they are the same weight.

I'm tired of people saying the Victor needs to perform like an "Assault".  Its 80 tons.  5 tons out of the heavy class.  It should actually perform closer to an Orion than an Atlas.  As it stands now, the Victors twist speed for a given engine is the same as an Atlas, and that is wrong.  It is the lightest assault and torso twists like the heaviest assault.  Its not a matter of performing like an assault, it should perform like its 80 tons.

But that's the whole issue.  Victor performing like 80 tons is the cause for all this grief in the first place.  I could even argue that pre-nerf, Victor was more agile than Orion when you add JJs into the equation.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 April 2014 - 08:05 AM.

[oldradagast]

Prezimonto, on 03 April 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

Wait, so it's balanced against the bar-none worst mech in the game?



I beg to differ, it was one of the most effective brawlers in the game, being beaten out only by some specialty builds with 3+ ballistics.

Which is why I don't complain that it got a small nerf to mobility, but it's also possible that the Victor was really in a sweet spot of tonnage vs. mobility vs. survivability for this game's current state.

What I hate seeing is that a mech, traditionally meant to be a brawler and excelling in that role, is nerfed in brawling because it's ALSO highly effective in firesupport/poptarting. I'd much rather see the poptarting be nerfed and the much more difficult and niche role of brawler preserved.

Exactly. The various jump-jet nerfs and changes to the Victor's agility have badly hurt it's brawling ability. I used to run a Standard 300, an AC20, and 2 large lasers, for example, for brawling. Not an overwhelming amount of firepower, but with the mech's agility, it could keep moving around to carve up foes while they had a hard time pinning the mech down. Sure, smaller mechs were faster, but I could practically walk around an Atlas or Stalker and tear it apart - they had more firepower, but I had more mobility.

Now, none of that is really practical anymore. The jump-jet changes and agility nerfs have really harmed the Victor's ability to brawl, and the painful reality is that the only thing the mech had going for it was agility. It's hit boxes are decent, sure, but it is rather undergunned for an assault mech in no small part thanks to the idiotic missile tube layout that forces SRM's to stream in silly, tiny clumps.

It's not a bad mech now, but it just feels wrong. You can still jump snipe in them, but the Victor was designed as a fast "in and out" brawler, and it's not really that good at that anymore. So, it hangs back, jump sniping or poking at things with the autocannons and PPC's... it's okay that that, but it doesn't really stand out anymore - it's role as a fast strike assault is gone.

Edited by oldradagast, 04 April 2014 - 08:08 AM.