347 replies to this topic

[DeathlyEyes]

I recently emailed the support email account notifying PGI that I would no longer purchase any mechs with MC in the future, their response to the email essentially told me to make a post in this forum. So here we go.

The changes to the Victor were completely unnecessary. The changes failed to correct the issue they were actually targeting. Furthermore they altered a product I purchased with money, not in game currency but my actual money. Here is where the issue comes. I can understand for the sake of balance slightly modifying a mech by about 5%, drastically altering performance of a mech by 20% is going way too far.

Now if I remember correctly, the reason for the nerf was to make it so that Poptart Victors would have trouble brawling. This is partially true now, the nerf has not really affected poptarting, while it has affected handling in close combat situations. Now this is fine, but the problem with this is it also affects non poptarting Victors. The original point of the Victor, according to technical readouts, was that the Victor could jump into a fire fight and bring some close range autocannons to the battle. Essentially jumping around adding firepower where it was needed tipping the scale in pitch battles.

This nerf does nothing to encourage this kind of behavior from the chassis and actually promotes quite the opposite. The mech is now as sluggish as an Atlas with the same size engine. This is what I have issue with most. Why does an 80 ton mech handle like an Atlas? It just doesn't make sense.

Finally I offer a simple solution. Increase the DPS of close range weapons and/or decrease the HPS of these weapon systems so brawlers can get an advantage close up with a Victor that is carrying "Sniper Weapons." The other option would be to reduce the DPS of the "sniper weapons." Currently a dual AC5 dual PPC Victor does 11.66 DPS, while a mech with 9 medium lasers only does 11.25. SRMs are sort of broken so their actual DPS would be hard to calculate but would likely not be much better than the 11.66 DPS the "Meta poptart" is putting out.

Without actually correcting the DPS issue with these weapons more chassis being released at later dates (Summoner) will have the same issue. I don't think the community will take well to a Summoner handling like an Atlas.

Edit: This post is not a post to get the Victor enhanced maneuverability compared to other assault mechs. This post is about getting the Victor back to the same level of maneuverability per ton as any other mech.

The Victor now performs just the same as an Atlas with the same sized engine (xl 325):



These 3 mechs all have the same sized engines(xl 310) yet the Victor handles slower despite being lighter:



Finally here is a screenshot of a Shadow hawk with a 310 engine just like the previous comparison. Adding the original values back to the Victor results in a 58.8, turn rate 61.2 torso pitch speed, 109.2 torso yaw speed and arm speeds of 235.4 no where near the Shadowhawk. This should settle some of the arguments that the Victor was as agile as a medium mech. It's not even as nimble as the heaviest medium.

[Gas Guzzler]

Here is what I said in the other thread, just in case PGI reads this:

Well honestly, the nerfs to the Victor were noticeable, but the Victor is still very workable. What gets me the most though is why? The way I see it, because it was popular to drop large XL engines into Victors, many of the loadouts exhibited quick turning/twisting speed. Currently those two are set to 20% below “Default”. I am assuming that “Default” is determined as a function of tonnage and engine size, seeing as twist speed increases proportionally with engine size. So why the heck such a huge adjustment? If an 80 ton mech handles like that with a big engine then what is the problem? I understand 5-10% adjustments for chassis tweaking but 20%??? Come on. That doesn’t make any sense. It seems like an arbitrary adjustment just because most people put large engines in a Victor. It is like they wanted the Victor with a big engine to be as agile as an Awesome with a smaller engine.

I'm not going to comment on weapon DPS. I just think that the chassis "adjustment" to the Victor was uncalled for.

[kesuga7]

Well ballistics are supposedly getting 'tuning' and i believe in ask the dev's paul stated that the nerf wasn't targeting poptarts but moreso that a assault mech was waay to versatile for its class
but for a 80 tonner and compared to a awesome i think its benefits of all three weapon hard points in optimal locations with jumpjets its still a solid mech

Buffing the brawler weapons such as medium lasers would also buff every light mech equipping such lasers

though its also not just DPS its how accurate and pinpoint the damage is however i agree that srm's are lacking but thats due to hit registration

and honestly its only 3 varaints that are wrecking the Poptart meta
Catapratch - 3D - Victor with the arm ballistics - Highlander 733c
so giving those 3 variants negative quirks to hinder their pop tarting effectiveness would help

[Prezimonto]

I also have been finding my Victor's no longer fun to play.

I rarely ran a poptart meta build on my Victors, my favorite was the 9B with an AC20, 2LL, an AMS and an XL350. It's not even a huge damage output mech, but the mobility made it easily the most fun mech to run that I owned. I had the speed and armor to actually get into brawling range, and it needed those things without the long range damage.

Please decrease the penalty to perhaps 10% on the Victor. In return nerf something else... turn up ghost heat for PPC's to 1... I could care less about poptarts.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I think the fundamental issue is that Victors had as good of or better handling than Mediums. When you have an 80 ton Assault mech that's more maneuverable than a Medium, then you have a problem. The change was intended to bring them in line with their weight class.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Well, I wouldn't go as far as Medium mech class handling, but definently Heavy class handling.

Either case, the nerf was probably a bit warranted. As a Heavy pilot who hates Assaults, I loved the Victor because it didn't feel like an Assault at all.

That was probably a clue that it needed to be dialed back a tiny bit.

Problem is, nerf it after months of people playing the mech and getting used to it how it was, and you are going to get major kickback from pilots. This was probably a nerf that should have happened much closer to when the mech first came out. PGI waited too long and now it feels less like balance and more like betrayal.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 01 April 2014 - 05:17 PM.

[Bagheera]

kesuga7, on 01 April 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

Victor with the arm ballistics

You do know that all the Victor's have that, right?

[Coralld]

I have and run a Victor and I am ok with it, sure its a bit more sluggish but still workable.

[kesuga7]

Bagheera, on 01 April 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

You do know that all the Victor's have that, right?

hmm yep seems like 2 of the variants are built for poptarting with 2 ballistic and 2 ppc in each arm

however like others said
its powerfull weapon hardpoints and its mobility for a assault was too much considering the weapons/armor/speed/turning it was able to do

gonna do round three of trial victor though and so far it doesn't seem to shaby

Edited by kesuga7, 01 April 2014 - 05:57 PM.

[SerratedBlaze]

The nerf has killed the 9S for me, I can't even fathom how it's so badly effected. Whenever I shoot an AC 20 at a stationary target 100-300m away aiming for center of mass, the bullet flies into the ground behind the targets knees. Dont even get me started on trying to hit a moving ember, odd thing is I used to have no problem taking out lights with it. I know bullet speed was reduced and I adjusted to it, then turn rate was reduced and now it feels like convergence was messed with.

More on topic, I don't mind that it needs more JJ to work about the same as 1 used to. I do mind that it feels like a stalker trying maneuver. It honestly deserved 5 to 10 percent off the bonus it had. This is as much of an overadjustment as missile speed.

No problems on my 9B though, UAC5/AC5/AC2. Used more for 300m to 1200m

[Coralld]

SerratedBlaze, on 01 April 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

The nerf has killed the 9S for me, I can't even fathom how it's so badly effected. Whenever I shoot an AC 20 at a stationary target 100-300m away aiming for center of mass, the bullet flies into the ground behind the targets knees. Dont even get me started on trying to hit a moving ember, odd thing is I used to have no problem taking out lights with it. I know bullet speed was reduced and I adjusted to it, then turn rate was reduced and now it feels like convergence was messed with.

That's been happening to me and my Victor 9S even before the patch. Its nothing new.

Edited by Coralld, 01 April 2014 - 06:23 PM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Finnally tried the Victor post patch. It feels more like a Battlemaster to me now (Battlemaster running a 340 STD engine).

Still quick, but doesn't feel like a Heavy mech anymore. Seems like a descent balance nerf honestly *shrug*

[Sam Slade]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 01 April 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

I think the fundamental issue is that Victors had as good of or better handling than Mediums. When you have an 80 ton Assault mech that's more maneuverable than a Medium, then you have a problem. The change was intended to bring them in line with their weight class.

The Victors design made it perfect for hunting lighter heavies and medum mechs. It could never compare to an Atlas, Stalker, Highlander or Banshee for sheer damage, it could out manuver them however. Now my Higlander out manuvers my Victor and carries more weapons....

If the problem was based on speed and manuverability then reduce the engine cap to 325. At 325 a Victor is quick but not that quick that it can run rings around anything but a heavier Assault or a seriously gunned up heavy(past 325 the Victor was too quick for it's role to be balanced in my opinion).

Edited by Sam Slade, 01 April 2014 - 06:35 PM.

[Skull Leader2]

I feel like all these people that complained it was too agile don't realize tonnage needed to make it so agile. You had to run at least 340 engine and 360 was more optimal. With that and JJ you greatly reduce the weapon space. My equally fast K2 with 300 engine could carry just as much firepower as a Victor and had advantages of high arms and good turning rates. Victor was not intended to go toe to toe with Atlas in a p*ssing contest or feel like a Battlemaster while moving. The biggest problem with taking away the Victor's agility is that it no longer has any advantage over the alternatives (Highlander) but still has all the disadvantages (less firepower, low arms).

[Ultimax]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 01 April 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

I recently emailed the support email account notifying PGI that I would no longer purchase any mechs with MC in the future, their response to the email essentially told me to make a post in this forum. So here we go.

The changes to the Victor were completely unnecessary. The changes failed to correct the issue they were actually targeting. Furthermore they altered a product I purchased with money, not in game currency but my actual money. Here is where the issue comes. I can understand for the sake of balance slightly modifying a mech by about 5%, drastically altering performance of a mech by 20% is going way too far.

Now if I remember correctly, the reason for the nerf was to make it so that Poptart Victors would have trouble brawling. This is partially true now, the nerf has not really affected poptarting, while it has affected handling in close combat situations. Now this is fine, but the problem with this is it also affects non poptarting Victors. The original point of the Victor, according to technical readouts, was that the Victor could jump into a fire fight and bring some close range autocannons to the battle. Essentially jumping around adding firepower where it was needed tipping the scale in pitch battles.

This nerf does nothing to encourage this kind of behavior from the chassis and actually promotes quite the opposite. The mech is now as sluggish as an Atlas with the same size engine. This is what I have issue with most. Why does an 80 ton mech handle like an Atlas? It just doesn't make sense.

Finally I offer a simple solution. Increase the DPS of close range weapons and/or decrease the HPS of these weapon systems so brawlers can get an advantage close up with a Victor that is carrying "Sniper Weapons." The other option would be to reduce the DPS of the "sniper weapons." Currently a dual AC5 dual PPC Victor does 11.66 DPS, while a mech with 9 medium lasers only does 11.25. SRMs are sort of broken so their actual DPS would be hard to calculate but would likely not be much better than the 11.66 DPS the "Meta poptart" is putting out.

Without actually correcting the DPS issue with these weapons more chassis being released at later dates (Summoner) will have the same issue. I don't think the community will take well to a Summoner handling like an Atlas.

For the most part, I agree I think the Victor changes cut a little too much.

You can get similar maneuverability out of a Highlander now, with more tonnage and armor.

It's fine that it shouldn't move like the more nimble heavies, but it certainly needs to be more agile than a Highlander.


Only one thing I don't agree with:

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 01 April 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Currently a dual AC5 dual PPC Victor does 11.66 DPS, while a mech with 9 medium lasers only does 11.25.

This is as it should be.

You are comparing 16 Tons of AC 5s +4 to 5 tons of ammo, and 14 Tons of PPCs to 9 tons worth of MLAS.

Those 34+ tons of weapons and 18 critical slots should be better than 9 tons & 9 slots worth of Medium lasers.

[Coralld]

Perhaps the Victor change may have made it on par with the Highlander in terms of agility, but remember, PGI said that all Assaults and possibly the Heavies or some of them are going to get an agility nerf, which the Victor just got hit and the nerf for the rest are possibly right around the corner.

Edited by Coralld, 01 April 2014 - 07:57 PM.

[xe N on]

I also don't understand this nerf.

Before nerf, the victor was good, but not over the top. The weapon layout somewhat limited the offensive capacity. Jaegermech or Cataphract running 3 AC5 or 3 UAC5 can be quite more offensive.

With the classical poptart layout it was already difficult to win against a competent brawler or light, because 1/2 of the firepower is gone under 90 m.

While I mostly run l long range weapons on my Voseictors and don't realy found a difference in play, I feel for those already rare players that like to brawl and now are heavily cut in their power.

[Bagheera]

kesuga7, on 01 April 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

hmm yep seems like 2 of the variants are built for poptarting with 2 ballistic and 2 ppc in each arm

Such a waste of its former mobility.

Even with borked SRMs the Victor was the most fun with ac20, SRMs, and lasers for backup.

That said, I fully support the mobility nerf. Assaults really shouldn't be able to dance the way VTR could.

[Coralld]

Bagheera, on 01 April 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

Such a waste of its former mobility.

Even with borked SRMs the Victor was the most fun with ac20, SRMs, and lasers for backup.

That said, I fully support the mobility nerf. Assaults really shouldn't be able to dance the way VTR could.

You just summed up my Victor 9S brawler config. Its a non meta mech but its still very mean.

[Nauht]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 01 April 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

I think the fundamental issue is that Victors had as good of or better handling than Mediums. When you have an 80 ton Assault mech that's more maneuverable than a Medium, then you have a problem. The change was intended to bring them in line with their weight class.

I replied in the last topic about this with actual data from Smurfy's (which parses the actual game files).

Without cutting and pasting it again - the Victor never, ever outturned any medium.
I based that last post on the Victor having a 350 and the medium having a 260 and the medium could still outturn the Victor and was more maneuverable and faster.