12 replies to this topic

[ThatBum42]

Hello. I got a Cicada 3M a while ago, and today I worked up enough c-bills to make this build. I got it mostly to master the Cicada chassis, but also because I noticed how much of an asset ECM is to the team, and I'd like to try scouting for once, since I usually do hit n' run and skirmishing with my 2A.

Anyway, is ECM and BAP worth it? I'm aware that ECM cancels BAP's ECM countering ability (because countering and disrupting simultaneously would be just mental), but the extended sensor range, decreased lock time, and the ability to target shut down mechs still sounds very useful.

However, this is all on paper. Has anyone tried this configuration and does it actually contribute to the playstyle significantly? If not I can take it out and use the 1.5 tons for TAG and...something else. Or maybe AMS, but I'm too fast-moving and not really intending to be close enough to other teammates with AMS enough for it to matter much.

[kesuga7]

AMS system would help to fight the lrm boats a bit with your combined ecm already

Tag would also be usefull considering TAG is near the range of your ER lasers

however unless youur going to peak up hills exposing your CT and TAG
BAP will be more usefull for obtaining informing but only for yourself


or you could do 149 kph if you drop BAP and have no TAG

Edited by kesuga7, 02 April 2014 - 12:31 AM.

[The Great Unwashed]

You can put ECM in counter mode and disrupt mode; as such it functions as a BAP. You do not get the increased radar range or quicker target info gathering from the ECM for which you can use modules, but it cancels one enemy ECM (XP plus very useful for your team). I find that BAP is not worth it when you have ECM and ECM should always be fitted on the mech that can fit it (otherwise you have the wrong chassis?). ECM can be fitted on a few lights and one Atlas and only the latter might have the reserve capacity to cram BAP in somewhere. For the lights I'd recommend more weapons or other useful items. You do not really need AMS when you are very fast and have ECM. Finding a shut-down mech is rarely very useful and you'd be carrying modestly useful equipment with you for many matches.

BAP is most useful when you do not have ECM to put in counter and when you have SSRMs, need target info quickly (brawler) and when the radar range is important (long range sniping, recon, LRMs). I'd use your speed and positioning to gain your advantage for the CDA, not the BAP.

BTW, many people use the CDA with ECM and PPCs and do really well... these are slower and have some arm armor for additional protection (e.g., CDA-3M). Pinpoint damage is a great advantage over the ERLL (plus, you can use the Raven 3L for that which has 4 module slots)

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 02 April 2014 - 12:42 AM.

[ThatBum42]

Okay. I think I'll remove the BAP and put TAG in the CT. Ultimate scout, hurr. Dunno what to do with that half ton. Small laser? Lol. Maybe more armor for the arms for torso twisting goodness.

I chose the two ER large because I saw it work with a few Ravens with that configuration to pretty good effect. I also thought the BAP's quicker info gathering would help with identifying crit components that I could saw off, but eh. I would try the PPCs, but right now I don't really feel like grinding for a new XL engine and will make do with builds involving the stock engine.

I might also play it as fire support and stay with a blob of my slower teammates so the ECM bubble is used to maximum effect. That, or follow other lights/fast mediums and make some kind of hellish mosh pit. If so I suppose I could equip some medium lasers or medium pulse.

Edited by ThatBum42, 02 April 2014 - 01:03 AM.

[Magna Canus]

For your consideration;

The Beagle Active Probe, or BAP, is a sensor suite that enhances the units onboard detection systems. Essentially it boosts radar coverage, locking and scan strength. It also can counter ECM at close range.

• 25% increased sensor range
  
• 25% decreased target info acquisition time
  
• Allows targeting of unpowered 'Mechs within 120m
  
• It counters 1 ECM within the range of 150m. It works the same way as an ECM in counter mode.
  
• If a 'Mech has both BAP and ECM installed, the counter ECM feature gets overwritten by ECM. So the 'Mech will only get the increased sensor range and the ability to target unpowered 'Mechs.

So combining ECM+BAP is only useful if you want to save yourself the module slots for either Advanced/Sensor Range, or Target Info Gathering or both. This also means that you can emulate the remaining BAP effects with these 2 modules as well.

It is notable that BAP and these 2 modules do indeed stack, so if you find that really long range detection and fast info on your target are essential to your play style then BAP would actually be useful for you.

BAP is more useful on a light mech when it comes down to searching for the last ECM spider powered down in the corner somewhere. BAP is also nice when the last guy is waiting around at a strategic place to ambush you. I can't count the number of time I have managed to ambush people on Terra Therma in my all black mechs because they don't use BAP or how many heavily damaged and powered down mech have fallen prey to my guns and BAP, or even how many times my heavies have been saved from a band of lights with an ECM raven because my BAP let my LRM boat target them.

[The Great Unwashed]

Magnakanus, on 02 April 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:

BAP is also nice when the last guy is waiting around at a strategic place to ambush you. I can't count the number of time I have managed to ambush people on Terra Therma in my all black mechs because they don't use BAP

For our new players, you may want to add that you ambush people by shutting down and trying to look like a destroyed mech...

[ThatBum42]

The Great Unwashed, on 02 April 2014 - 01:55 AM, said:

. I can't count the number of time I have managed to ambush people on Terra Therma in my all black mechs because they don't use BAP

I tend to avoid shutting down because my team ends up yelling at me for it, but I suppose that's sensible. I don't think I have the alpha power to do anything sneaky like that with the Cicada, though. I do run in a corner and shut down if something pressing in real life presents itself, like a phone call. Then I power back up when it's dealt with.

I think what I'll do is get seismic for it, and also bring an arty strike. Sounds reasonable to stand behind cover near enemies and count them out for the team using seismic. If it's effective enough, I might even keep the chassis and master it, won't that be something.

The Great Unwashed, on 02 April 2014 - 01:55 AM, said:

For our new players, you may want to add that you ambush people by shutting down and trying to look like a destroyed mech...

"Can't tell if destroyed or shut down" another one for the meme thread!

Edited by ThatBum42, 02 April 2014 - 02:12 AM.

[Magna Canus]

ThatBum42, on 02 April 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

I tend to avoid shutting down because my team ends up yelling at me for it, but I suppose that's sensible. I don't think I have the alpha power to do anything sneaky like that with the Cicada, though.

The ECM Cicada has a nice 2xPPC build for such things and if you use Arty/Air Strike it gets more fun.

Example; Terra Therma, Conquest, in my all black Raven 3L. Damn those guys were good. Half the team had TAG and my ECM was useless. I ended up being the last guy. I picked a spot, stood close to the wall and powered down. I watched an Orion walk past not 30 meters before my nose. He had his TAG on and was "scanning the area". I waited for him to walk past, then powered up when he was a good sight away (maybe 400 meters). Without moving I dropped an Air strike on his back and timed my 2xERLL shot to hit at the same time. BOOM, he was dead and I powered down again. Lucky me because his Cataphract buddy came around the corner a second or two later. I managed to take out the Phract, but got legged in the process, but by then my team hit 750 ressource points and we won. Fortunately the other 3 enemies left did not have time to come mop me up. =)

[Denolven]

A BAP in general is usefull for two major things:

• getting enemy info earlier/faster; mostly used by scouts and assassins, for example the Jenner F
  
• to counter information denial (ECM, shutdown): mostly used by long range supporters or scouts, to notify your team about this ninja squirrel/Atlas

Together with TAG and NARC, they are part of the information warfare.

As for your question: the answer is as always "depends on what you want to do".
If you want to spend more time with long range damage dealing, BAP has a low priority (because you are there for dealing damage, not for supporting your team with intel). MAYBE for getting the armor weakspots a bit earlier, but that alone is barely worth it (CT is never wrong, and you'll have the details for the second shot anyway).

But if you tend to do more skirmishing, supporting, flanking, scouting and all that, then BAP becomes interesting. I have seen whole teams panic when 2 ECM lights basically blinded us. They started running around like crazy chickens. Then me and one other guy stopped the fighting and moved into counter range, and suddenly order came back slowly. Pretty sure we won that fight because two of us cared to bring BAP.
The Cicada is probably the only mech that really cares about the question "should I take both", as it's the only mech besides the Atlas that actually has the tonnage to do it. I thought about it with my light mechs, but those additional 1.5 tons simply hurt too much when I can't even take enough ammo for a fight, so ECM wins. But if you have it with the 3M then I say go for it. Doesn't hurt to have more team equipment.


TLDR:
If you want to skirmish alot, consider taking a BAP, but prioritize ECM.
If you focus on mid/long range damage dealing, don't bother.


PS: You might want to take a look at the Gauss sniper role. The Cicada is the best one out there, because with the invisible gauss projectiles and your ECM they will have trouble finding you. Just stay away from your team, because that's where they will look first. Be somewhere off in the flank on a hill or something, and watch them panicking as you hit them when they think they are in cover.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

I have a build for 3L and D-DC that includes ECM BAP AMS TAG. I like those things a lot especially in unison with sensor modules.

[Fuggles]

Haakon Magnusson, on 02 April 2014 - 05:06 AM, said:

First three correct, but where do people get this that BAP somehow magically cancels ECM?
I does not.

There is a dev post about it and I doubt they have in the meantime added a complete negation:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1823299

EDIT: This like the same urban legend about King Crab and split criticals... which of course is also not true.

Dude, bap magically cancels ecm. No really, it does.

Now for your cicada build, I would add a extra heatsink and armor to your arms before I added bap, ams, or tag. Unless of course you don't have any modules. Or your planning on spamming air/arty strikes then I could see the bap.

Good luck

[ThatBum42]

I did my first match with my loadout, it did spectacularly. Second highest damage at 402, with 11 assists and 145k c-bills made from spotting, component destruction, counter ECM, etc. Amazing.

I did stay with my a team a lot, I felt that utilizing the ECM bubble would make a better chance of winning. I used my speed to run around to pockets of teammates that looked like they could use some ECM, and switched to counter when an enemy ECM spider was bothering us.

I did do a lot of long range shots and snap decision shots, so I agree that the BAP is not worth the weight in this situation. I will remove in in favor of TAG and bumping up the arm armor to 14 each side.

I thought the ER larges would not really be that effective, but boy howdy was I wrong. I didn't have any heat problems even while firing them near continuously, but it was Frozen City. I might put some med lasers on it if this becomes a problem, but I kind of like having a long range infinite ammo AC/20.

[Denolven]

ThatBum42, on 02 April 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

I did stay with my a team a lot, I felt that utilizing the ECM bubble would make a better chance of winning. I used my speed to run around to pockets of teammates that looked like they could use some ECM, and switched to counter when an enemy ECM spider was bothering us.

Congratulations, you are doing it right . If your team has several missile markers on them, you know where to go.

As a rule of thumb, you can use one large laser per weight class (1 on light, 2 on medium, etc.) without getting heat troubles - just make sure you don't trigger ghost heat (fire in groups of max 2).
My Misery actually uses 4 ERLL and a large pulse laser, and still has good heat behavior with 23 double heatsinks. I can shoot like 3 full salvos before even starting to care about heat. Remember: energy weapons scale with heatsinks.

Oh and another tip, learned that from Koniving: you can use the TAG to "scan" for your target. At long distances, terrain rendering is a bit weird - sometimes the rock that they use as cover is invisible to you. If the crosshair gets red when you TAG him, then you can hit him. Otherwise he has invisible cover. That can save you some heat.