450 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

I wish to preface this post to give a little context and frame of reference...

My PC gaming history harkens back to a time when single-player games were the norm and "online gaming" was still in it's infancy and truly was not mainstream. Hell, I was still a Prodigy noob and perish the thought of playing anything online with that damn 14.4 baud modem.

As such, I was a late adopter to "online gaming"... Initially wooed by FPS but eventually combat flight sims where I had my first experience with being part of a virtual squadron and team-based play.

That said... I had more than enough bad "online experiences" to be soured to venture into that environant again... or so I thought.

Enter MW:O...

I went into this game dead set to be an unwavering advocate of being a lone-wolf solo player. Early on I was pretty vocal over the evils of premades which were largely pre-conceived boogiemen I manifested secondary to past experiences as previously noted.

I was eventually befriended by Joseph and the experienced a manture® premade environment which quickly showed me two important things... 1.) My fears were largely unfounded. 2.) MW:O is fun / enjoyable on an entirely grander scale. Eventually I found kindred souls in the FWL and more specifically in the Redmoon Angles and the rest is recent history.

The point of this rambling post is this...

Since I registered on this forum in anticipation of it's release and eventually being allowed access to the closed beta game-play... premades have been the scapegoat for any number of this games "issues" and unabashedly I have to now admit undeservingly. Sadly still they are propagated, regurgitated and recycled much to the detriment of this community and more importantly to the divisive nature of game-play metrics.

(The point Zur... Get to the point already)

We are at an important precipit with MW:O, community warfare and the recently announced drop module. PGI has made some, what many consider unqualified decisions regarding the direction to take these pillar aspects based on metrics that seem to indicate the lions share of this community is content with solo drops.

I am not going to belabor the number of qualifiers that I can numberate that refute this premise but that's an argument I do not wish to argue or discuss here... (please)

What I do wish to impress upon the apparently copious number of solo players is that there is much-much more to MW:O, and the universe it draws life from that what is derived from solo game play that team-play inspires. I'm talking about depth of strategy, enough roleplaying to give actions meaning and a sense of comradery earned through friendships.

I challenge solo players... new and old. Give some serious consideration to the value and values of joining a team / clan or if you are party to a disbanded and or dormant team or clan, rally them and reinvigorate the core intent of MW:O and help show PGI the error in their fractured metrics...

TL-DR: Find a reason to invigorate team-play and let's give PGI a reason to re-evaluate their metrics. There's universe of enjoyment waiting to be unleashed... that said, it'll only happen if PGI believes it's in the best interest in the future of MW:O.

We can reluctantly continue to be part of the problem or we can be the solution... The end result lies largely in our hands.

Thank-You for wading through this wandering outpouring of concern.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

I will not join a team just to "feel" competitive, I have been on the receiving end of too many stomps across a wide range of gaming thanks to groups of people who have nothing better to do with their lives than ruin online experiences for others. I have a moral obligation to speak for and support the enjoyment of all players regardless of skill/group lines. Solo and lone wolves players should absolutely be able to feel competitive without being forced into spending time and energy finding a group every time they play the game or be at a significant disadvantage.

I absolutely think every player (including groups) should be able to enjoy the game as they want but anything over 2 players per group in the main PUG queue makes balancing much more difficult as 4 coordinated and synergized mechs can easily be able to pull the weigh of 6+ average players. Then have another queue for sizes 1 - ~8 ish, then another for dedicated 12 mans. Let the queues decide which is the most fun for people.

That or same queues as now but allow the possibility of 3 groups of 4 to be matched together and forced to play in the 12 man queue. Helps decrease 12 man queue times and gives dedicated 4 coordinated mans a taste of their own medicine in the form of "challenging" opponents instead of the typical PUG.

Edited by Tw1stedMonkey, 02 April 2014 - 09:15 PM.

[Craig Steele]

@ OP

di·a·tribe
/ˈdaɪəˌtraɪb/ Show Spelled [dahy-uh-trahyb]

noun
a bitter, sharply abusive denunciation, attack, or criticism: repeated diatribes against the senator.

I don't see that in your OP

But as to the content, I can get behind your sentiment.

The problem with your call out though is that in my experience anyway, the vast majority of players are "plug and play".

They get home from work, the kids are racing around while dinner is getting ready. Going out in an hour and gotta have a shower. They have limited time to "blow proverbial up", get the next level or put in a few laps. That's just life now a days. They want to log on, get their entertainment value and get on with the rest of their life.

F2P games appeal to this market as they are the ones who spend a few bucks every month to get the new shiny toy as they will never grind it out. It's the backbone of their preferred market.

So while your points are very valid and true, anytime you get interaction it creates 'obligation'. Most people are like that, and what I mean is this. If you're in a lance of 4 and you got to go to dinner, you will feel obligated to do "one more run" waiting for another clan member to take your spot in the team. I know it probably is never asked by other team members, but people just feel that way because thats part of the value you're describing, that 'team' intangible. If you're late for dinner (insert other rl thing here) you get 'real' grief and you need to manage that next time round.

For all the benefits of team play (and I used to do it a bit myself and agree with your sentiment), solo play is going to be the majority demographic and games need to cater to that market to be sustainable.

[DaZur]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 02 April 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

You're reading too much into my post...

It's not about "being competitive" or being part of some steamrolling conglomerate out for grins and giggles at the expense of ruining some other players day.

It's about being part of a bigger picture and fostering the aspect of the game that encourages play deeper than some random pew-pew-pew...

If all you got out of that assembly of words... you've got a deep rooted issue that's beyond my capacity to salve.

As I thought I clearly stated... I too, at one point saw premades as boogiemen and harbored some irrational distrust and dislike.

And I'm still pro-solo... That said I'm advocating for something bigger than some butt-hurt I recieved 15 years ago. I'm talking about the direction PGI is willing to go with MW:O that is rift with concessions that will effectively neuter so many of the original pillar tenants and could (long term) religate this game to some quasi-FPS shooter's lack of depth and and stunt the community's growth.

I've advocating for something bigger than just "me".

Edited by DaZur, 02 April 2014 - 09:54 PM.

[DaZur]

Craig Steele, on 02 April 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

@ OP

di·a·tribe
/ˈdaɪəˌtraɪb/ Show Spelled [dahy-uh-trahyb]

noun
a bitter, sharply abusive denunciation, attack, or criticism: repeated diatribes against the senator.

I don't see that in your OP

But as to the content, I can get behind your sentiment.

Fixed that...

Craig Steele, on 02 April 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

The problem with your call out though is that in my experience anyway, the vast majority of players are "plug and play".

Oh, no doubt and I'm not in any way interfering MW:O should be exclusively some cerebral mess that cannot be "jumped into" for meaningless robot on robot debauchery...

That said, there is so much more depth available in this game that goes unappreciated and might never if PGI continues it's determined route...

Truthfully, I was at most hoping to inspire solo players who are fearful of joining team / clans to give it consideration in a vain attempt to salvage the long-term potential of this IP... Not much more.

Interestingly enough... the RMA was a perfect fit for me because, I am that adult demographic with limited time you alluded to... and thankfully I've never felt obligated to be anything more than what I'm able to commit.

Edited by DaZur, 02 April 2014 - 10:00 PM.

[Craig Steele]

DaZur, on 02 April 2014 - 09:51 PM, said:

Fixed that...
But as to the content, I can get behind your sentiment.


Oh, no doubt and I'm not in any way interfering MW:O should be exclusively some cerebral mess that cannot be "jumped into" for meaningless robot on robot debauchery...

That said, there is so much more depth available in this game that goes unappreciated and might never if PGI continues it's determined route...

Truthfully, I was at most hoping to inspire solo players who are fearful of joining team / clans to give it consideration in a vain attempt to salvage the long-term potential of this IP... Not much more.

Maybe, but the 'depth' you describe is more from the interaction with like minded people than it is a product of the game imo.

That (like everything else) needs to be balanced against the other factors in ones life. If you're getting that from you immediate circle then while more is good, I submit most will focus instead on getting to the movie on time.

Put it like this, if one of my freinds says hey, I'm thinking of playing I'll happily do drops with them. But this is not a game that I set aside a Friday night to have a few drinks and link up with on line buddies to play for 8 hours.

Just my 5 cents

EDIT: But I should reiterate here that playing in a team is "generally" more enjoyable, in any game.

Edited by Craig Steele, 02 April 2014 - 10:00 PM.

[Hawk819]

DaZur has a point. Being in a unit has way better benefits than just going solo. Trust me and him, we've been at this separately. I started as a solo at first, then joined the Clan Hell's Horses unit in MechCommander 1 and later, MC Gold, with that I have kept the name Hawk819, shorten down from xThunderHawk819. I have served in over 15 different units in several leagues for MechWarrior 3 and 4, my last unit disbanded after the unit leader dropped off the face of the earth. I can't remember the name of the unit. That's how I met Longbow, Checker, Crashagn, Mustang, NeoZero, Nitehawk, NSRob, WhitePhoenix, the list goes one. Each of us were in three different units.

Others I have known over the years, and I truly miss are Osdada, Trash, Skull, and many others. My point is: people enhance your game experience better than just going solo.

I would love to get in touch with BigKev and the rest of the Clan Hell's Horses unit I was apart of when I first started out. Big Kev, if you should read this, I hope you're not pissed at me any more.

That's basically about it. In a team, you make friends and they endure in memories onward. I know, sobby as this is, it makes my point quite clear. Friends are more important than what one realizes. Plus, they can teach you far beyond your expectations and beliefs. I've been with the 1st Fed Suns Armored Cavalry for well over 12 yrs, and boy, have had some fun with these guys. Alyward, Qin, Chewie, and the rest of the Headhunters of Davion. I give a shout to you guys as well.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

DaZur, on 02 April 2014 - 09:51 PM, said:

Fixed that...
But as to the content, I can get behind your sentiment.


Oh, no doubt and I'm not in any way interfering MW:O should be exclusively some cerebral mess that cannot be "jumped into" for meaningless robot on robot debauchery...

That said, there is so much more depth available in this game that goes unappreciated and might never if PGI continues it's determined route...

Truthfully, I was at most hoping to inspire solo players who are fearful of joining team / clans to give it consideration in a vain attempt to salvage the long-term potential of this IP... Not much more.

It could be a lot more but humans suck and any time you give a potential advantage to a group of players (4 mans) they will do everything they can to lord it over other people and thusly ruin their chance at a fair gameplay experience. I am all for depth and teamwork etc. but the main market to target is the plug and play crowd and their gameplay experience should come first. If they can find a workable solution in which teamwork cannot be exploited to dominate and stomp PUGS then I will support it fully. But it seems like PGI has chosen the gameplay model that is most difficult to balance and in which imbalances become most apparent: team-based non-respawning shooter in which all mechs/weapon systems should be balanced against one another based only on tonnage, crits,and heat. Certain weapon are meant to be better but more rare/expensive making certain weapons (like small lasers) nearly useless.

Adding a respawning, semi-respawning, or limited lives/drop mode would do well to offset/disguise imbalances. I would also love to see a mode where spawn with x amount of money and then they buy a mech that is either a trial or mech they customized and work/fight to get enough money to afford a more powerful mech, and the mode has respawning and has battles meant to last like 30 mins to an hour. Pretty much hour mechwarrior living legends was. That makes it much easier to balance since an assault mech with XL engine, DHS, endo-steel and gauss/LL will and should be better than a standard engine medium mech wielding medium and small lasers.

TL;DR add more modes and modes with respawning/limited drops so that min/max doesn't cause as huge landslides as currently tend to be the case.

[DaZur]

Just for the sake of clarity... This is not a "You must join a team / clan in order to be competitive and or be taken seriously" thread.

Maybe I'm a sentimental old fool but to me this IP is more than stompy war robot action. To me it's supposed to be masterly of your mech, making decisions with rewards and repercussions, earning c-bills and aiding your faction / Clan in planetary conquest... Not just random pew-pew-pew (Which has it's place too)

I stopped playing mindless shooters years ago because they soon grew boring (One of the reasons combat flightsims attracted me early on)... There are multiple decisions on the table for PGI to consider that are not tangible in a singular metric IMHO that are pretty critical to depth of game-play mechanics...

[Eddrick]

It would be nice if they gave teams more tools. It would also, be great if they gave solo players tools to better communicate with other solo players as well. Any kind of communication and teamwork go a very long way in this game. Be it, in a group or solo.

I have had good experiences with grouping with others. I use to be part of a Guild in an MMORPG. They were very understanding in that my free time is unpredictable. There was even some that had less free time then me.

Personally, I'm waiting tell I can get a computer that meets the minimum system requirements, to join a group. My computer can run the game. I just can't get more then 10 frames per second with it. I don't want to drag down a group because I'm gimped by my computer. I do, ok with it and I stubbornly play. Despite the terrible frame rate. I does amaze me that people with good computer can do much worse then me. But, that's besides the point.

I would like to see this game be more group friendly. All that might need to be done, is to give solo payers tools to help level the paying field against groups. If the solo players chooses not to use any tools to help with communication and teamwork. That is their own decision. However, they will not be a very big help to the team.

Normally, I would not bother with the Sensor Range Module. But, I use it, because it helps my team. To many of them have tunnel vision and they can't seem to see anything that doesn't have a triangle over their head. I also, have to point out ECM shielded targets to them, too. Either with a TAG or ERPPC hit.

If anything, this game could really use a Free-for-All Mode. For the people that don't want to be a Team Player or play on a team at all.

Edited by Eddrick, 02 April 2014 - 11:08 PM.

[El Bandito]

As a pug lord, I approve OP's message. Groups can help to make this game more bearable--especially during the dark times pre-patch.

[Craig Steele]

DaZur, on 02 April 2014 - 09:51 PM, said:

Interestingly enough... the RMA was a perfect fit for me because, I am that adult demographic with limited time you alluded to... and thankfully I've never felt obligated to be anything more than what I'm able to commit.

lol

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you have NEVER said to the 'Significant Other', "I'll be there in a couple of minutes, I'll just finish this mission, won't be long"

I am calling you out right now if you try and tell me thats true

[DaZur]

Craig Steele, on 02 April 2014 - 11:38 PM, said:

lol

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you have NEVER said to the 'Significant Other', "I'll be there in a couple of minutes, I'll just finish this mission, won't be long"

I am calling you out right now if you try and tell me thats true

Truth told... She actually encourages my participation. Aside from being a youth football coach, I don't have many vices and PC gaming is effectively my "hobby" so she's good with my vested time.

That said, I made an earnest promise to her to not put my "hobby" before her and the family or real-life® commitments and that's a promise made with serious undertones.

So "nope"... never stayed on past my 1st warning shot... My son on the other hand? Well, let's say mama-Z knows where the power button is and she's not afraid to execute it with extreme prejudice.

[Craig Steele]

DaZur, on 03 April 2014 - 03:44 AM, said:

Truth told... She actually encourages my participation. Aside from being a youth football coach, I don't have many vices and PC gaming is effectively my "hobby" so she's good with my vested time.

That said, I made an earnest promise to her to not put my "hobby" before her and the family or real-life® commitments and that's a promise made with serious undertones.

So "nope"... never stayed on past my 1st warning shot... My son on the other hand? Well, let's say mama-Z knows where the power button is and she's not afraid to execute it with extreme prejudice.

Yeah, I don't believe you

No such SO ever existed

lol

[wanderer]

Quote

Solo and lone wolves players should absolutely be able to feel competitive without being forced into spending time and energy finding a group every time they play the game or be at a significant disadvantage.

The only way this ever happens if there is a completely separate solo queue. Period.

All things being equal, two guys shooting one kills faster than two guys shooting two guys. It's what makes LRMs sweet in lower-ELO (read: players who cannot into team) matches. They create focus fire, simulating team play to an extent- which is extra-effective on less organized teams.

Teams laugh at people who have a fundamental disconnect on the subject. As long as there's one MM for both groups and solo players, the solo player is fodder. And at this point, I think at best PGI doesn't have the capacity to handle it,at worst they're enjoying watching the PUGs suffer.

[Joseph Mallan]

First off...
Aw shucks!

My first venture into the the on line PvP MMO(ish) gaming world is MW:O. Oh I have a character for Final Fantasy Online and One for EverQuest... Thats as far as I got. I made the Characters and walked around for a few minutes then never logged back in.

So when I started reading the Group hate threads in CB I was set back. Wasn't the intent of a Online Game like this to be BE part of a group? I was planning on getting my Friends from HeavyMetal ( Hi Goose!) and The BattleCorp( High Ark) online so we could stomp the yards together in game instead of just in fiction.

This game is less fun when I am restricted on how many friends I can game with at one time. May be why I cannot get up the enthusiasm to hit launch much any more.

If you think you are having fun playing the game in silence talking only to your Cat, Dog or significant other you are missing the fun of laughing with/at you buddy who just killed/died that last guy standing. You are really missing the best part of the game.

[Joseph Mallan]

Craig Steele, on 02 April 2014 - 11:38 PM, said:

lol

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you have NEVER said to the 'Significant Other', "I'll be there in a couple of minutes, I'll just finish this mission, won't be long"

I am calling you out right now if you try and tell me thats true

For the record I have said that to my wife while I am playing Pokemon or power washing the deck so I this not a Online gaming only situation.

[Craig Steele]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 April 2014 - 04:00 AM, said:

First off...
Aw shucks!

My first venture into the the on line PvP MMO(ish) gaming world is MW:O. Oh I have a character for Final Fantasy Online and One for EverQuest... Thats as far as I got. I made the Characters and walked around for a few minutes then never logged back in.

So when I started reading the Group hate threads in CB I was set back. Wasn't the intent of a Online Game like this to be BE part of a group? I was planning on getting my Friends from HeavyMetal ( Hi Goose!) and The BattleCorp( High Ark) online so we could stomp the yards together in game instead of just in fiction.

This game is less fun when I am restricted on how many friends I can game with at one time. May be why I cannot get up the enthusiasm to hit launch much any more.

If you think you are having fun playing the game in silence talking only to your Cat, Dog or significant other you are missing the fun of laughing with/at you buddy who just killed/died that last guy standing. You are really missing the best part of the game.

In another game I played, it was small scale missions in teams of 4. My freinds list had over 230 people on it and while I played with a core crowd, I think I played at least monthly with everyone on my list (in fact I know I did because I would delete players I had not played with monthly from my list).

Was it fun, sure. Lots of good times.

MW:O is not that game.

Until they build in game Comms and Social functions, it is far to time consuming to 'find' a team and co ordinate 'which' comms is agreeable to everyone on the team for the time I play.

If anyone is lucky enough to have a staple 5 friends + that are always on line and commed up ready to play when they are then they are very very lucky. Sadly for the majority of MW:O players thats not the case and for an infinite numbers of reasons, they solo drop.

[Disapirro]

Team comms in game and I will be happy. I do not have the time, outside of family and friends that do not happen to share this interest with me. I know the team experience is probably better in most ways, but it would be better for some, like myself, if there was an arena where teams did not have such an impact on the game.

Matches are a crapshoot of being on the pug exclusive side or the side with a group on comms, with the win being positively related to being on the side with the group and comms, no 5hit I know team op, yada yad. Still very frustrating to the pug player none the less.

[Joseph Mallan]

Craig Steele, on 03 April 2014 - 04:14 AM, said:

In another game I played, it was small scale missions in teams of 4. My freinds list had over 230 people on it and while I played with a core crowd, I think I played at least monthly with everyone on my list (in fact I know I did because I would delete players I had not played with monthly from my list).

Was it fun, sure. Lots of good times.

MW:O is not that game.

Until they build in game Comms and Social functions, it is far to time consuming to 'find' a team and co ordinate 'which' comms is agreeable to everyone on the team for the time I play.

If anyone is lucky enough to have a staple 5 friends + that are always on line and commed up ready to play when they are then they are very very lucky. Sadly for the majority of MW:O players thats not the case and for an infinite numbers of reasons, they solo drop.

I will have to go to the NA server for a test of this. To my admittedly limited use, I have never had much of a problem getting picked up for a group, and had fun with the gents I dropped with. Not once did I run into a Jerk, uncooperative player teaming up that way.

But it is worth looking into again as times have changed.