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A Fresh Perspective... Premades & Mw:o.

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#41 Magna Canus

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:31 AM

View PostCraig Steele, on 03 April 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:


So if we assume MW:O has 1m players (at one stage they talked about 1.6m from memory) and that 70% are pure solo PUG's, your solution to those 700k people is "Make an effort guys"?

Have I read that right?

Assume is such a nasty word because it makes an a$$ of U and me (A$$ u me). Truth is we don't know how many players we have and what kind of players those are so any conjecures over that figure are purely speculative and have no place in a serious discussion.

And yes, to get somewhere/something in life errort is usually the way to go. It all depends upon the effort you decide to apply yourself to; complaining on the forums and making wishes has prooven itself to be the most effort with the least rewards as far as PGI is concerned. Doing something about it yourself seems to be more allong their lines of intent and provides better results & faster.

Which is more effort; downloading TS and getting to know some people, or mounting a campaign on the forums and getting PGI to do what you want them to... well, historical facts have already answered that question for you.

#42 wanderer

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:34 AM

Quote

So long range fire support is for the Noobs... You've told it to a Marine and you were found wanting. I am good, But I know the need and use of Missiles in this Universe. If you can dismiss them offhand... THEY ARE NOT powerful enough. A good missile barrage should make you concerned. Sure you know how to avoid them I do to. But if you are this Cavalier about them they are not good enough yet.


Nope. I'm saying that not being able to advance in the face of long-range fire support is newbie-tier. Given that basic level of competency, LRMs can still be useful...but unlike direct-fire weaponry, you can't rely on missiles alone. A team can have sniping PPC/AC/Gauss direct-fire support and still work well- indeed, work better- than taking missiles vs. a team that knows how to negate the launchers effectively via cover, ECM, and AMS.

You can't AMS a Gauss shot that just crushed your torso like tinfoil, after all. And again, I'll point to the top of the ELO mountain where LRMs share co-existence time with unicorns in terms of battlefield minutes spent on the field.

#43 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:34 AM

View PostDaZur, on 03 April 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

[/size]
But this is kind'a germaine to my point... It's carrot to the stick proposition.

PGI seems to be reading their game-play metrics in a extremely myopic fashion and, having limited resources, are willing to leverage MW:O development on the premise that this community is happy with shallow game-play and the assumption everyone is also happy playing solo. As such, why vet operational costs into developing core game function to support "teams" and depth of strategy when the metrics appear to show otherwise.

MW:O was conceptually envisioned to be team centric... For various reasons, to include their own shortsightedness and the fallout that resulted, this community swung from being strong advocates of teams to strong advocates of solo.

Solo must be supported for all reasons listed and 102 yet to be discussed... That said, I think it's highly assumptive on PGIs part to not appreciate the number of "solo" players they've included in their metrics that are truly "team" players that have lost their will and desire to "be" a team because PGI seems to now be leaning heavily in the direction of solo-drop game design and ignoring the more granular needs of the team players.

Don't we really need a game in its entirety to decide if the game play is good or not? THIS is not MechWarrior, this is a shell of a game, pretending to be launched!

#44 Magna Canus

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:41 AM

View PostCapriel, on 03 April 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:


Note that built-in VOIP is not necessary to be able to interact with team mates, and in fact the whole idea of having random strangers yabbering bollocks down the mic at me is repulsive.

...

I do NOT want voip with strangers.


Yes, this. I am also opposed to VoIP because of this specifically. Sorry to burst some people bubble here, but there are just some players out there that I do not want to heart talking because the things they type in chat ar asinine enough as it is.

Now think about the kind of trolling people will get if their voice sounds funny, or they stutter, or have an accent, or whatever. If you are in a unit there is at least a ground basis for some form of respect which you cant get from a random group of strangers.

#45 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:45 AM

There is a tab to increase decrease in game volumes... I have zero music, in game sound effects maxed... I am sure you and I could zero the Chat volumes if it were an issue as well.

#46 Kaldor

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:52 AM

View PostDaZur, on 03 April 2014 - 03:44 AM, said:

Truth told... She actually encourages my participation. Aside from being a youth football coach, I don't have many vices and PC gaming is effectively my "hobby" so she's good with my vested time.

That said, I made an earnest promise to her to not put my "hobby" before her and the family or real-life® commitments and that's a promise made with serious undertones.

So "nope"... never stayed on past my 1st warning shot... My son on the other hand? Well, let's say mama-Z knows where the power button is and she's not afraid to execute it with extreme prejudice. :D


My wife looks at it the same, and she understands as she played DAOC with me for 7 years... :(

View PostDaZur, on 02 April 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

...Redmoon Angles...


Are they right angles? Or perhaps obtuse? I didnt know we had such a unit in FWLM.... :rolleyes:

#47 DaZur

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:54 AM

View PostCapriel, on 03 April 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

I do NOT want voip with strangers.

I want Easy Teamwork

I know this has been suggested elsewhere, so sorry for having an opinion.

View PostMagnakanus, on 03 April 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

Yes, this. I am also opposed to VoIP because of this specifically. Sorry to burst some people bubble here, but there are just some players out there that I do not want to heart talking because the things they type in chat ar asinine enough as it is.

I agree... but with a qualifier:

In-game VoIP is often an un-regulated / uncontrolled free-for-all that for what ever reason inspires folks (young and old) to act like raging douches. Which is honestly "why" I refused to back in-game comms...

That said, I now advocate external VoiP solutions like TS, because their is security in knowing the players on your secured channel are there with similar desires and levels of maturity.

This is a tough subject but I also realize the intrinsic value of an in-game solution... even though I know the potential for abuse.

#48 DaZur

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:58 AM

View PostKaldor, on 03 April 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

Are they right angles? Or perhaps obtuse? I didnt know we had such a unit in FWLM.... :rolleyes:

Oh sure I pour my heart out in public forum and I get taken to task by Steele for the usage of diatribe and now you're going to bust my chops over angle / angels. :(

Typical Marik... :D

Edited by DaZur, 03 April 2014 - 06:00 AM.


#49 Craig Steele

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 06:11 AM

View PostDaZur, on 03 April 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

[/size]
But this is kind'a germaine to my point... It's carrot to the stick proposition.

PGI seems to be reading their game-play metrics in a extremely myopic fashion and, having limited resources, are willing to leverage MW:O development on the premise that this community is happy with shallow game-play and the assumption everyone is also happy playing solo. As such, why vet operational costs into developing core game function to support "teams" and depth of strategy when the metrics appear to show otherwise.

MW:O was conceptually envisioned to be team centric... For various reasons, to include their own shortsightedness and the fallout that resulted, this community swung from being strong advocates of teams to strong advocates of solo.

Solo must be supported for all reasons listed and 102 yet to be discussed... That said, I think it's highly assumptive on PGIs part to not appreciate the number of "solo" players they've included in their metrics that are truly "team" players that have lost their will and desire to "be" a team because PGI seems to now be leaning heavily in the direction of solo-drop game design and ignoring the more granular needs of the team players.


Well I kinda don't agree with you on this one. This reads a bit of time compression and hindsight to reach a conclusion.

PGI developed a game that implied team work, the marketed as a team based game, etc etc.

PGI plays the game in teams, I have seen several PGI badged people on my team and the opposite from time to time. I assume like everyone does that most pre made teams are on comms as part of their co ordination. PGI have highlighted they think comms is important to winning in MW:O.

PGI got feedback from many players saying that the PUG experience was horrible, MM was putting Pre made teams up against PUG's and they were getting smashed (amongst other feedback items, but to stay on subject)

PGI did some assessments of statistics and were "surprised" (their word) to find out that 84% of players dropping were solo PUG's.

PGI reviewed the feedback from this (now) major demographic and propose incorporating some amendments to make that demographics game experience better.

The changes proposed are not a reflection of PGI steering the game towards solo PUG's, they are a reflection of people actually being solo PUG's and they don't want to loose that demographic (I suspect commercial reality has hit hard?)

What I don't get is why people are all upset about solo PUG's. I play both team and PUG's and honestly, the game is still the same. MM is still broken and stomps still happen far to often. The meta game is still rubbish and mechs still have very little durability.

So what if PGI are amending MM so that there is only 1 pre made in a team and an approximate evening of resouces on the field. It's got to be better than what we have. They're not saying go away to all the team players. They're actually saying hey, if you're organised and want to play your own game, we will let you.

All those organised guilds can actually play (when it arrives) whatever game type they want without any restrictions to mechs or weights or meta. What is the actual complaint about.

FACT: Solo PUG's make up a major portion of the player demographic (according to the only people who have the stats, PGI)
FACT: If a company is to thrive, it needs to cater to its major customer base
FACT: PGI have said they want to make the game better for their major demographic in their player base
FACT: PGI have also said they are going to enable pre made team based play far greater than it ever has before. They are actually giving them the options to set game settings.

PGI are not taking anything away from the pre mades except their ability to wail on PUG's. How is that bad?

I suspect it is that without PUG's, pre mades don't have enough targets and so they cannot load a game. If so, they are part of the problem that drove the PUG's to complain about the game experience and they are now are getting what they deserve. I have zero sympathy if thats the case.

Honestly sometimes I wonder what all the angst is about, do people know? Heck Magnakanus is here telling everyone they should just make a bigger effort to play the game he wants to play in the same thread where we are talking about people having very little time and wanting a plug and play experience. He might as well have said "L2P my way".

So if you're in that Guild with 100 players and dozens on line anytime, what is the problem? If you want to plug and play with PUG's, go for it. If you want a canon team compsition, go for it within your Guild. If you want to do something funky with your freind's go for it.

#50 DaZur

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 06:11 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 03 April 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

Don't we really need a game in its entirety to decide if the game play is good or not? THIS is not MechWarrior, this is a shell of a game, pretending to be launched!

Understood...

That said, as I alluded to... PGI, knowing they have limited resources seems to be making concessions regarding where they allocate their resources and they are leveraging their drawn metrics to divine which camp to placate... and IMHO, their metrics are erroneously being accepted at face value and they are betting the house on solo-drop game play.

Left unchallenged... I fear MW:O will be too solo-centric to be able to accommodate the more granular needs of team-play. Not even mentioning the rich tapestry the BT universe that PGI seems to be ignoring and or glossing over in favor of shallow unfulfilled flash and dazzle.

#51 Craig Steele

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 06:29 AM

View PostMagnakanus, on 03 April 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:


Yes, this. I am also opposed to VoIP because of this specifically. Sorry to burst some people bubble here, but there are just some players out there that I do not want to heart talking because the things they type in chat ar asinine enough as it is.

Now think about the kind of trolling people will get if their voice sounds funny, or they stutter, or have an accent, or whatever. If you are in a unit there is at least a ground basis for some form of respect which you cant get from a random group of strangers.


I play Dota 2 which I would say the community is generally 3 times as bad as MW:O in terms of manners and in 800+ games have had one scenario where I had to mute someone because their conduct annoyed me.

In MW:O, if there is chat in all chat which is less than desireable its from 2 guys, maybe 3. So 10% of the total players.

I can press mute on them easily enough if it really bugs me and the other 90% of players will enhance my game experieince most of the time.

The majority of players play to have fun, and the game would benefit immensely from an in game Voice function (with a mute button ofc)

#52 3rdworld

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 06:34 AM

Wow...People against integrated voip.

It just goes to show, how easy it is to make someone butthurt nowadays.

I am sorry if someone hurt ur feelers. But every modern shooter has integrated coms for a reason.

#53 Triordinant

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 06:40 AM

View PostTw1stedMonkey, on 02 April 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

It could be a lot more but humans suck and any time you give a potential advantage to a group of players (4 mans) they will do everything they can to lord it over other people and thusly ruin their chance at a fair gameplay experience.


A well established general rule of online gaming is if something can be exploited, it WILL be. Premades got a bad rep because some bad apples banded together to stomp PUGs then went on to sync-drop to stomp even harder. It takes only a few rotten apples to make the whole barrel stink.

What really worries me is what such trolls will do when Community Warfare kicks in. The only thing that alleviates sync-dropping is the fact that even if you end up in the same match as your clanmates, you could end up on opposing sides. Normal folks who sync-drop just to play with friends often say they don't see this as a problem, which is great. For the PUGstompers, it gets in the way of their plans, which is also great.

With Community Warfare, you'll always drop on the same team if you're in the same Faction. A clan can drop a 4-man, then have an Elo-matched bunch of guys sync-drop solo to join them. Since they'll always be on the same side, they can hope to put together a de facto 10 to 12-man premade on Teamspeak vs. an opposing team of PUGs and a 2 to 4-man premade. If they don't find a way to flat out stop this from happening before Community Warfare, then it's Game Over because news travels fast in the online gaming community.

Edited by Triordinant, 03 April 2014 - 06:43 AM.


#54 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 06:42 AM

View Post3rdworld, on 03 April 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

Wow...People against integrated voip.

It just goes to show, how easy it is to make someone butthurt nowadays.

I am sorry if someone hurt ur feelers. But every modern shooter has integrated coms for a reason.

players are to lazy to get a 3rd party VOiP?

Sorry had to throw that joke in!

#55 Craig Steele

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 06:46 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 03 April 2014 - 06:42 AM, said:

players are to lazy to get a 3rd party VOiP?

Sorry had to throw that joke in!


Lazy??? :D

Time is money you know :(

#56 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 07:12 AM

View PostCraig Steele, on 03 April 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:


Lazy??? :D

Time is money you know :(

Tell me about it... I make <$30 an hour while I am typing these words of wisdom! I kill you guys & killed by you guys for free! :rolleyes:

#57 DaZur

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 07:14 AM

View PostTriordinant, on 03 April 2014 - 06:40 AM, said:

What really worries me is what such trolls will do when Community Warfare kicks in. The only thing that alleviates sync-dropping is the fact that even if you end up in the same match as your clanmates, you could end up on opposing sides. Normal folks who sync-drop just to play with friends often say they don't see this as a problem, which is great. For the PUGstompers, it gets in the way of their plans, which is also great.

With Community Warfare, you'll always drop on the same team if you're in the same Faction. A clan can drop a 4-man, then have an Elo-matched bunch of guys sync-drop solo to join them. Since they'll always be on the same side, they can hope to put together a de facto 10 to 12-man premade on Teamspeak vs. an opposing team of PUGs and a 2 to 4-man premade. If they don't find a way to flat out stop this from happening before Community Warfare, then it's Game Over because news travels fast in the online gaming community.

While I hear your concerns... I think this would be an exception to the norm.

That said, You are spot-on with the rotten apples analogy... Sadly, bad experiences leave lasting scars that are for more prevalent than any modicum of good ones. :D

#58 Magna Canus

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 07:37 AM

View PostCraig Steele, on 03 April 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:


I play Dota 2 which I would say the community is generally 3 times as bad as MW:O in terms of manners and in 800+ games have had one scenario where I had to mute someone because their conduct annoyed me.

In MW:O, if there is chat in all chat which is less than desireable its from 2 guys, maybe 3. So 10% of the total players.

I can press mute on them easily enough if it really bugs me and the other 90% of players will enhance my game experieince most of the time.

The majority of players play to have fun, and the game would benefit immensely from an in game Voice function (with a mute button ofc)

Your words in gods ear. Mute MUST be in there.

#59 Kaldor

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 07:44 AM

View PostDaZur, on 03 April 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

Oh sure I pour my heart out in public forum and I get taken to task by Steele for the usage of diatribe and now you're going to bust my chops over angle / angels. :(

Typical Marik... :D


I dont troll as hard as Roadbeer, but I try!!

#60 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 07:47 AM

View PostKaldor, on 03 April 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:


I dont troll as hard as Roadbeer, but I try!!

You made good friends DaZ... Keep em S.A.F.E.





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