450 replies to this topic

[Roadbeer]

Craig Steele, on 03 April 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

PGI moved to Australia?

Tazmania

[Joseph Mallan]

Roadbeer, on 04 April 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

Tazmania

Say what?

[Khobai]

Quote

Typing "Sniper/Brawler/PopTart/etc/etc" is neither time consuming nor space intensive.

Again... you cant scroll up and theres no chat log. Expecting people to memorize who on their team has what weapons is absurd.

[slide]

Agreed Joseph, standard pug excuses.

-premades
-sync drops
-matchmaker
-Elo hell
-noobs
-many more.

But never ever might it have something to do with themselves. But at least with a separate queue they can remove one reason.

[Shakagra]

so basically you are saying that 4 random players of different nationalities/languages, without any means of proper communication, completely random mechs and mechbuilds have NO disadvantage versus 4 ts-synched players with mechs to suit their strategy and the possibility to focus fire?

wow, the ignorance of your list just feeds my prejudices about seal clubbers



i get the feeling that a small but active group in this forum is fighting with teeth and nails to keep their advantages ingame over the rest of the player base. whenever a normal, casual player even dares to arise topics like balancing or fairness, you start argumenting against all common sense to damage their credibility.

Edited by Shakagra, 04 April 2014 - 05:48 AM.

[DaZur]

I still cannot believe after the discussions volleyed back and forth, the functional math and statistical patterns demonstrated and the demonstrable proof shown that "stomps" are the result of combat loss attrition and compounded force strength, yet people still cling to the notion that premades are the singular culpable force.

I'm sorry to say, it's that kind of over reaching opinion that continues to be propagated that perpetually keeps premades viewed as small woodland animal defilers and consumers of newborns....

Edited by DaZur, 04 April 2014 - 05:43 AM.

[Magna Canus]

slide, on 04 April 2014 - 05:28 AM, said:

Agreed Joseph, standard pug excuses.
But never ever might it have something to do with themselves. But at least with a separate queue they can remove one reason.

It comes down to this really. I actually think I have changed my mind. I want In-game VoiP and PUG only ques. Know why?

I want to laugh, gloat, and giggle at the number of QQ threads that will pop up like mushrooms in the wood after a rain.

Titles;
Verbal abuse on Comms!!! He/She called me a useless noob, told me to F-off, etc.
MWO looses the majority of its female players due to sexist comments and/or lewd remarks
ELO Hell! I am getting stomped by evil high ELO PUG teams! (e.g. Pre-made surrogate)
Droves of meta humpers sync dropping into the PUG que (real or immagined)
I am such an awesome leader but nobody listens to me
Tactical disasters lead PUGs to damnation

The list goes on and on. I am actually intrigued as to what the excuses will be once the ground basis for the current excuses has been removed.

In the end I begin to believe that it really comes down to "I am not winning, everything besides me has to be wrong".

[Joseph Mallan]

I haven't once heard of gender discrimination on this forum Golden? For that I am very glad. Even from ladies using TS3.

DaZur, on 04 April 2014 - 05:42 AM, said:

I still cannot believe after the discussions volleyed back and forth, the functional math and statistical patterns demonstrated and the demonstrable proof shown that "stomps" are the result of combat loss attrition and compounded force strength, yet people still cling to the notion that premades are the singular culpable force.

I'm sorry to say, it's that kind of over reaching opinion that continues to be propagated that perpetually keeps premades viewed as small woodland animal defilers and consumers of newborns....

I am neither little or Furry DaZ

[Mawai]

Just a couple of comments ... I agree with the OP and especially Craig's response regarding time and commitment available to folks these days.

Issue number 1: Statistics

- PGI has issued information on one number ... 84% solo launched and 16% group launches
- they have never responded to define a group
- Russ mentions it is players in an NGNG interview but he is likely just repeating something he was told
- these figures do not contain time of day variations
- these figures do not contain weekly or monthly variations (there are longer cyclical trends in player participation)
- these figures someone mentioned are for the entire lifetime of MWO ... which really makes them useless if true since the number of teams changes.
- PGI needs hourly statistics on a daily and weekly basis or it will be impossible to properly design their match maker ... 3/3/3/3 does NOT work unless there is a nearly perfect distribution of mechs and weight classes. If any class i more popular there will be extensive queues forming very quickly (I have posted numbers elsewhere so won't bother to repeat them here).
- if PGI has these numbers it would be really cool for them to release them - we don't want to know how many people are playing ... just an idea of the proportions ... mech preferences and such.
- HOWEVER, PGI has limited development resources ... my guess is that coding server metrics like these has NEVER been a priority ... so PGI really doesn't have much of a clue about their actual population distribution - especially if they only number they have ever published is a global lifetime number of very little real value that they cite to justify decisions.
- maybe I am incorrect and PGI has an amazing set of metrics ... I certainly hope so ... but there is no evidence of that ... the release of the revised matchmaker and launch module will tell the story.
- If they release the module and people run into long queue times for groups and assaults within the first few hours of operation then it will be clear that PGI did NOT do any data analysis whatsoever.

Issue number 2: Blaming pre-mades

- Folks have always liked to blame pre-mades. In beta there were quite a few roflstomps that could be attributed to 8 man teams dropping against 8 random players. Team work is OP
- however, the current matchmaker appears to try to put pre-mades on each side if possible ... at least a lot of matches I have been in will have what appear to be pre-mades on both sides.
- These games can STILL be roflstomps

... and this is the problem ...

- a perfectly balanced matchmaker will NOT eliminate roflstomps or 12:0 results.
- in matches with a 4man group and 8 pugs on each side ... whichever team coordinates better will likely win. If a pair of lights medium running together gets whacked while off scouting the game is 12:10 ... with a signifcant advantage to one side.
- MOST of the 12:2, 12:1, 12:0 results I have seen are due to player actions ... team spread out ... 6 ememy mechs pop up and start rolling down the line ... Mr. poptart peeking over the hill and being blasted by 6 opponents while damaging one ... and then doing it AGAIN! Forming a gaggle of mechs at a choke point taking turns walking forward being blasted by 4 opponents and only hitting one. These are ALL losing strategies that I see almost every other game ... and they are almost always associated with a loss and imbalanced result ... then someone blames "The other team had a pre-made". LOL

- pre-made has been a bogeyman since the start of this game. They do make a difference in many cases but when limited to 4 players the impact is less and individual play is a much bigger factor ... and there are so many poor from a team perspective (though maybe quite fun from an individual perspective ... ramboing with that spider and sniping the enemy team can be fun and engaged in under the guise of "scouting" ... however, when you die or your leg gets blown off by a lucky shot ... your team is down one).

- anyway ... my expectation is that no matter how balanced the match maker is in its next iteration ... folks will still be complaining about unbalanced matches ... but, in my opinion, players aren't that likely to blame their own mistakes (and just for reference ... I make tactical errors with irritating frequency ... running around that corner in my jenner/ember/spider and finding 6 enemy mechs can turn into a big mistake ... or over-extending my position in a Jager or Stalker where I don't have 2 or 3 team mates reasonably close ... just makes me a potential target/victim since they aren't quick ...


Executive summary:
- Statistics are suspect and there aren't nearly enough of them
- pre-mades are a bogeyman and most matches are won/lost due to player actions not fundamental imbalance

[Shakagra]

Quote

I want to laugh, gloat, and giggle at the number of QQ threads that will pop up like mushrooms in the wood after a rain.

Titles;
Verbal abuse on Comms!!! He/She called me a useless noob, told me to F-off, etc.
MWO looses the majority of its female players due to sexist comments and/or lewd remarks
ELO Hell! I am getting stomped by evil high ELO PUG teams! (e.g. Pre-made surrogate)
Droves of meta humpers sync dropping into the PUG que (real or immagined)
I am such an awesome leader but nobody listens to me
Tactical disasters lead PUGs to damnation

so you say that it is bad to remove 4 man players with tactical advantages out of the random queue is bad because there is a matchmaking system that needs to be improved?

do you offer even one, single reason that is not completely absurd? or are you just lobbying to continue farming random player groups with your friends?

Edited by Shakagra, 04 April 2014 - 05:56 AM.

[Magna Canus]

DaZur, on 04 April 2014 - 05:42 AM, said:

I still cannot believe after the discussions volleyed back and forth, the functional math and statistical patterns demonstrated and the demonstrable proof shown that "stomps" are the result of combat loss attrition and compounded force strength, yet people still cling to the notion that premades are the singular culpable force.

I'm sorry to say, it's that kind of over reaching opinion that continues to be propagated that perpetually keeps premades viewed as small woodland animal defilers and consumers of newborns....

It is amazing isn't it? 16% of the player base is completely stomping the other 84%. Isn't that sad? I just wonder when those 16% actually sleep, eat, work, or do other things in life, don't you? I mean, for them to be responsible for every stomp they have to be online 24/7, waiting to swoop down on the unsuspecting baby seals, clubs-a-waivin'. Now THAT'S dedication.

[Joseph Mallan]

I think he is saying that removing teams from a Que in a team based game is ludicrous. and I agree. The best team wins I have won as a Lawman and Lost as a Lawman in every configuration that the game has allowed. I have never blamed the opposition for my lose. The best team won the match. Next drop, ready go!

Magnakanus, on 04 April 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

It is amazing isn't it? 16% of the player base is completely stomping the other 84%. Isn't that sad? I just wonder when those 16% actually sleep, eat, work, or do other things in life, don't you? I mean, for them to be responsible for every stomp they have to be online 24/7, waiting to swoop down on the unsuspecting baby seals, clubs-a-waivin'. Now THAT'S dedication.

[Shakagra]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 April 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

I think he is saying that removing teams from a Que in a team based game is ludicrous. and I agree. The best team wins I have won as a Lawman and Lost as a Lawman in every configuration that the game has allowed. I have never blamed the opposition for my lose. The best team won the match. Next drop, ready go!

ah, yes, so unfortunately for you that approximately 80% of those players in the queue are NOT even interested in forming a premade team. the best team wins is utterly bullshit if you attack them with 4 heavies and focus fire. or be able to react immediately to the medium flanking you on canyons, while in a normal game you have to hope and pray that someone of your team is looking at the map.

you just say that no tactics are on equal level to tactics, and that a way to improve tactics is no advantage over the other team. congratulations sir, you just won the award for "how do i use nonsense as an argument in a discussion"


edit: to pgi, i hope you one day stop listening to the 1% of old players in the forum and tend to the needs of the other 99% of the players

Edited by Shakagra, 04 April 2014 - 06:08 AM.

[Roadbeer]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 04 April 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

I am curious as to what types of games they studied, comparing a 3D competitive multiplayer shooter with a 2D mobile phone game gives basically no relevant data at all. Mobile in general I would feel correlates very little to desktop developed F2P games as well.

As I said, it was a quick search, I'm sure if I had dug deeper, I could have found something more relevant, but when you do search the topic, you have to sift through hundreds of pages for Guild Wars 2, and if I had used any of that data, I'm sure you would have said "But that's an MMO" or some other dismissive retort. I think that the data has even more relevance because it's saying that even the developers of the equalivant of what could be considered a Gameboy game (and yes, I know I'm showing my age by referencing the Gameboy) have figured this out. This is a social game, a team game with an impending community warfare.

Tw1stedMonkey, on 04 April 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

Also define a "guild"... Atm there isn't really anything to correlate to guilds in this game, so is that your point?

The hundreds of House, Clan and Merc units would like to have a word with you. (Many of them represent hundreds of active players) They're in the 3 forum groups below this one.

Tw1stedMonkey, on 04 April 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

I can say even with in-game voip I would refuse to use it despite owning a mic. Pretty much the only game i use a mic on are console small group co-op games like CoD zombies or mass effect 3 multiplayer and only because there is no text-based chat or easy way to implement it and communication is almost required. I just don't like talking to people via voice chat. I hate phone calls too and won't answer them unless it's an emergency or business-related, and you find that out if they leave a voice-mail or call back again immediately, otherwise I ignore it.

We get it, you're anti-social, nice that those who group are penalized to support your type of game play.

Tw1stedMonkey, on 04 April 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

Some of the things talked in that link are entirely anti-consumer and are frankly just plain attempts to manipulate people... This is why I hate the business world. I mean I get that people need to maximize profits and what-not but i abhor greed and liars/manipulators...

I know, Capitalism is evil (even though it has brought more people out of squalor and slavery than any other system in the world)

Edited by Roadbeer, 04 April 2014 - 06:11 AM.

[Magna Canus]

Shakagra, on 04 April 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

so you say that it is bad to remove 4 man players with tactical advantages out of the random queue is bad because there is a matchmaking system that needs to be improved? do you offer even one, single reason that is not completely absurd? or are you just lobbying to continue farming random player groups with your friends?

What I am saying is that no matter what happens, excuses are excuses, and excuses have a wonderful tendency to get over inflated very quickly. What I am saying is that if they stay, if they get removed, it makes no difference.

While I do not "farm" with my friends I do notice that you are trying to get personal which is usually an indicator that rational arguments are running out. In my unit I am responsible for training new players, helping them get used to the game, use the controls, keep their noses out of trouble. With 2+ new players on my team I can hardly call it farming. Especially when I am instructing them on how to get their own kills and holding back on taking any myself. So, go fish, try again.

As I have said time and time again, I have dropped solo with 4+ kills and 600-700 damage with a Pre-made on the other side. I have dropped in games with 11 other random strangers and we ROFLstomped the enemy with 2 groups on the other side. I have also been on comms with my regular guys and we have had our a$$es handed to us by damned well organized PUG groups. So comms is not the hold grail here. It is not the ultimate nuke you are trying to make it out to be. Smart players playing smart win games.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shakagra, on 04 April 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

ah, yes, so unfortunately for you that approximately 80% of those players in the queue are NOT even interested in forming a premade team. the best team wins is utterly bullshit if you attack them with 4 heavies and focus fire. or be able to react immediately to the medium flanking you on canyons, while in a normal game you have to hope and pray that someone of your team is looking at the map.

you just say that no tactics are on equal level to tactics, and that a way to improve tactics is no advantage over the other team. congratulations sir, you just won the award for "how do i use nonsense as an argument in a discussion"

Thats exactly what I am saying... The Best Team Wins. I have been in a 8man heavy drop and was ROFLstomped by 8 players in YLWs. The Best team won. I have been in a 12 man and was beaten by a Base camp. The best team won. I have killed 4 players solo and lost the match, Best team won. I have been in drops where the entire team didn't get over 200 damage, the best team won.

No whining, no complaining, win or lose, the best team wins the match, whether it is at the last second, or in TS while picking the Mechs for the drop. The Best Team Wins.

That never once means I always win, it just means I understand and accept that I will not win every match, I will not be the golden child at the end of a match. I have been competing in one form or another for well over 30 years.

THE BEST TEAM ALWAYS WINS!

Is that really so hard to accept?

FYI... I have mostly PUGged since March of last year.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 April 2014 - 06:15 AM.

[-Natural Selection-]

I would say 25% of my drops (in premades) are with people NOT on comms or someone in group isn't on comms with us. This is because mostly they are European and either there is language issues, or their time zone doesn't allow them to be loud (people sleeping).

Now why am I playing with these folks when lack of comms should be an issue? BECAUSE they know what they are doing, and don't have to have their hand held.


If/when I drop solo it only because I am waiting for others to log on, or swapping out with others in group. EVERY match there are solo players trying to sync with the 4 mans (another reason I find the 86% skewed....)We have brothers that log on to play together, dads playing with kids, co-workers getting it in, AND people dropping with new players helping them out. EVERY single person that plays with us says they will forget this game if premades are removed. I dare it to be removed

Edited by Dozier, 04 April 2014 - 06:16 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Magnakanus, on 04 April 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

As I have said time and time again, I have dropped solo with 4+ kills and 600-700 damage with a Pre-made on the other side. I have dropped in games with 11 other random strangers and we ROFLstomped the enemy with 2 groups on the other side. I have also been on comms with my regular guys and we have had our a$$es handed to us by damned well organized PUG groups. So comms is not the hold grail here. It is not the ultimate nuke you are trying to make it out to be. Smart players playing smart win games.

So in a nut shell Magna is saying,

THE BEST TEAM ALWAYS WINS!!!!

[-Natural Selection-]

Shakagra, on 04 April 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

ah, yes, so unfortunately for you that approximately 80% of those players in the queue are NOT even interested in forming a premade team. the best team wins is utterly bullshit if you attack them with 4 heavies and focus fire. or be able to react immediately to the medium flanking you on canyons, while in a normal game you have to hope and pray that someone of your team is looking at the map.

you just say that no tactics are on equal level to tactics, and that a way to improve tactics is no advantage over the other team. congratulations sir, you just won the award for "how do i use nonsense as an argument in a discussion"


edit: to pgi, i hope you one day stop listening to the 1% of old players in the forum and tend to the needs of the other 99% of the players

And this makes sense how? So you are now saying focusing fire on a mech is unfair. Responding to a flanking force is unfair.

Need moar meds to comprehend this..

Added* there is a little triangle that tells you who people are focusing. pgi gave you the tool use it, or nvm this is a fail for visual coordination. There is a little symbol telling you someone is narc'ed, a symbol showing lrms are on them. You DONT need comms to figure out who to shoot at weeeee.

Ohh, and someone hitting "R" tells me someone is flanking.

I don't need comms or a group to be better. I need less people who don't pay attn.

Edited by Dozier, 04 April 2014 - 06:29 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Dozier, on 04 April 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

And this makes sense how? So you are now saying focusing fire on a mech is unfair. Responding to a flanking force is unfair.

Need moar meds to comprehend this..

Are there really enough?