88 replies to this topic

[w0rm]

Remove Ghost Heat And Add...

Hats!

[OneEyed Jack]

GH doesn't need to be replaced, just removed. It literally has zero effect on anything that matters, as it only punishes lasers and SRMs, both of which are at the bottom of the list for needing to be limited by such a ridiculous effect. PPCs have enough base heat to make GH moot, and ACs ignore it, anyway, aside from the AC2 which it works bass-ackwards on.

Any other limiting effects added would be a new situation, not a replacement.

[Joseph Mallan]

w0rm, on 04 April 2014 - 04:38 AM, said:

Remove Ghost Heat And Add...

Hats!

Nooooooooooo!

[Mcgral18]

Enforced chainfire would certainly increase the skill needed to place shots where you want them, but there would be so much whining.

A proper heat system would be much nicer, with proper ratios of damage to heat to cooldown. Instead of the mess we have now. Penalties for running hot, and the possibility of heat neutral builds that are not horrid.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 04 April 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

Enforced chainfire would certainly increase the skill needed to place shots where you want them, but there would be so much whining.

A proper heat system would be much nicer, with proper ratios of damage to heat to cooldown. Instead of the mess we have now. Penalties for running hot, and the possibility of heat neutral builds that are not horrid.

I guess I would qualify as one of those whiners on this point Mcgral. I am a 30 Year master of the Alpha Strike. It is the way I like to play. If I have more weapons than I can safely fire I have a bad build.

[Mechteric]

I like the idea of lower heat capacity and increasing heat dissipation as well, this way if you do alpha strike your 4 or 5 PPCs you will most likely go over 100% and start taking serious internal damage.

[Roland]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 April 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

I guess I would qualify as one of those whiners on this point Mcgral. I am a 30 Year master of the Alpha Strike. It is the way I like to play. If I have more weapons than I can safely fire I have a bad build.

Well, you would have to change the way you play.

It wouldn't necessarily be bad, as many people fear.. It'd just be different.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 04 April 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

Well, you would have to change the way you play.

It wouldn't necessarily be bad, as many people fear.. It'd just be different.

Bad is in the eye of the beholder. I can work with most systems... But I do not prescribe to telling a player they cannot play like X.

I never PPC boated but I fought them without complaint
LRMs... Only complained when MY missiles were doing 90 degree turns and blasting my enemy
AC/PPC Beat it with Large/AC20 and mediums
Pop Tarts... Not in Canon (with a very very small exception) but i can fight em just fine.

So if you wanna chain fire instead of Alpha... Do it, and learn how to beat my Alphas. Like I do against all other fighting styles.

[Roland]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 April 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

Bad is in the eye of the beholder. I can work with most systems... But I do not prescribe to telling a player they cannot play like X.

Every game does exactly that, in every case.
That's how games work. They have rules that you are forced to obey.

Joseph Mallan, on 04 April 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

So if you wanna chain fire instead of Alpha... Do it, and learn how to beat my Alphas. Like I do against all other fighting styles.

Chainfiring is generally just flat out inferior to Alpha striking. You generally NEVER want to chainfire, except in a few very specific cases.

One potential use for chainfiring is to juggle your target and keep them from returning fire through knock.. but whenever such a thing comes into use, it gets nerfed, because people don't like getting knocked.

As long as you allow precise alpha strikes of multiple weapons, where they all hit the same location, then that will be the way to play effectively. It won't simply be "an option". It will be "the correct way to play".

Just like it has been in every incarnation of mechwarrior to date.

Because it allows you to sidestep one of the major balancing mechanisms of battletech, by duct-taping weapons together to create huge uber weapons. It lets you take 4 medium lasers, strap them together, and get an instant hit AC20 for 4 tons.

It basically breaks most of the inherent weapons balancing mechanics in battletech.

If you forced chainfire, then you would be able to avoid the issues caused by the convergence system we have, without having to introduce any randomness into the firing pattern.... and it'd be INFINITELY easier to understand for players than Ghost Heat is.

This is, essentially, what Ghost Heat TRIES to do, but it does it in a profoundly stupid way.

[AlmightyAeng]

Roland, on 04 April 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

Every game does exactly that, in every case.
That's how games work. They have rules that you are forced to obey.


Chainfiring is generally just flat out inferior to Alpha striking. You generally NEVER want to chainfire, except in a few very specific cases.

One potential use for chainfiring is to juggle your target and keep them from returning fire through knock.. but whenever such a thing comes into use, it gets nerfed, because people don't like getting knocked.

As long as you allow precise alpha strikes of multiple weapons, where they all hit the same location, then that will be the way to play effectively. It won't simply be "an option". It will be "the correct way to play".

Just like it has been in every incarnation of mechwarrior to date.

Because it allows you to sidestep one of the major balancing mechanisms of battletech, by duct-taping weapons together to create huge uber weapons. It lets you take 4 medium lasers, strap them together, and get an instant hit AC20 for 4 tons.

It basically breaks most of the inherent weapons balancing mechanics in battletech.

If you forced chainfire, then you would be able to avoid the issues caused by the convergence system we have, without having to introduce any randomness into the firing pattern.... and it'd be INFINITELY easier to understand for players than Ghost Heat is.

This is, essentially, what Ghost Heat TRIES to do, but it does it in a profoundly stupid way.

Which is exactly why I'm all about the low heat cap, high dissipation. Wanna alpha-strike? Great, you're gonna hit 90% of your heat cap, or go over and shut down. That system REWARDS conservative chain-fire, with a high-risk high-reward aspect for alpha-striking at the right moment.

Anybody with me on this?

[Roland]

Ghost Badger, on 04 April 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

Which is exactly why I'm all about the low heat cap, high dissipation. Wanna alpha-strike? Great, you're gonna hit 90% of your heat cap, or go over and shut down. That system REWARDS conservative chain-fire, with a high-risk high-reward aspect for alpha-striking at the right moment.

Anybody with me on this?

But you're just doing what Ghost Heat did... creating a convoluted system which fails to address the actual issues. And as a result, you're just going to push people towards the cases which aren't affected by it.

For instance, your system doesn't do anything to address cool running weapons. I could load up multiple Gauss rifles, and you haven't done anything to stop it.

If you want to address the REAL issue, then you need to prevent people from duct-taping multiple guns together and firing them as though they were a single giant gun. THAT is the problem that needs to be solved.

As long as people are afraid to address the actual problem, then you end up getting crap like Ghost heat.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 04 April 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

Enforced chainfire would certainly increase the skill needed to place shots where you want them, but there would be so much whining.

A proper heat system would be much nicer, with proper ratios of damage to heat to cooldown. Instead of the mess we have now. Penalties for running hot, and the possibility of heat neutral builds that are not horrid.

The problem with forced CF is that it completely kills strikers and hit-and-run attack mechs dead in the water. A Jenner is not going to sit there and wait 6.5 seconds to fire off all of his weapons (1 second for each ML, plus 0.5 seconds between each ML, plus 0.5 seconds for a pair of SRM4 or w/e). It pretty much makes harassing attacks impossible/pathetic unless you're packing a very small number of the biggest weapons in the game (which lights and most mediums can't really take advantage of most of the time).

Being able to hit-and-run is a completely valid and legit tactic that should always remain in this game, and there are many mechs built specifically for that purpose (such as the Jenner and Commando) in the Battletech lore that this game borrows from.


It also nerfs the crap out of certain weapon groups that don't need it. For example, 2 SRM2 would now become completely inferior to an SRM4, even though they have slightly higher heat and take up an extra crit slot (plus, an extra hardpoint). The same goes for Small Lasers compared to ML. A single ML is already better than 2 SL, forced CF would make a single ML superior to as many as 3 SL (which are heavier and bulkier). Any loadout that carries more than 3 or possibly 4 weapons would be instantly made unviable by this kind of system, because they require too much exposure time compared to somebody just boating less than 4 weapons.


Being able to fire 3 Flamers or 2 Machine Guns at the same time is not an issue. Being able to get a large volume of heavy weapons to hit a single spot (easily) is. This is why I believe that Homeless Bill had the best convergence idea that I've seen so far. http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

It solves the issue without nerfing the living bejesus out of things that don't really deserve it. His exact numbers might need work in a few areas (I'd reduce the "simultaneous fire" on most weapons a little bit) but overall it's a solid idea that doesn't cause much/any collateral damage. It gives you the choice between either firing weapons individually/in small quantities for maximum precision, or firing all at once for a big burst that doesn't hit the same spot. Risk versus reward.

Edited by FupDup, 04 April 2014 - 08:01 AM.

[Thejuggla]

Remove ghost heat add sized hard points, make it so most mechs can't mount ppcs with gauss or more than 2 ppcs unless you are an awesome. No need for ghost heat or charge this way.

[Black Arachne]

Davers, on 03 April 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

GH is working as intended and all you people who want to boat Large Lasers had just better deal with it.

It's better to boat ballistics - far superior to lasers in all areas. Ammo isn't even a concern.

[AlmightyAeng]

Roland, on 04 April 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

But you're just doing what Ghost Heat did... creating a convoluted system which fails to address the actual issues. And as a result, you're just going to push people towards the cases which aren't affected by it.

For instance, your system doesn't do anything to address cool running weapons. I could load up multiple Gauss rifles, and you haven't done anything to stop it.

If you want to address the REAL issue, then you need to prevent people from duct-taping multiple guns together and firing them as though they were a single giant gun. THAT is the problem that needs to be solved.

As long as people are afraid to address the actual problem, then you end up getting crap like Ghost heat.

Gauss is a bit of an outlier man, and it's cool-running advantage is countered by extreme weight, and the explosive quality. It's balanced individually against it's negatives.

Ghost heat is rather arbitrary and doesn't effect all weapons equally...a low heat cap high dissipation system does...and it doesn't negate alpha-strikes, it makes it a choice that can have dire consequences.

Hell, if you want, create a simplified version of Ghost heat that adds extra heat if you're firing a certain number of ANY weapon (i.e, 2 or 3 of ANY kind together) that increases your chances of shutdown on TOP of a low heat cap high dissipation system.

From what I recall in lore (and this is NOT a place I go to often for arguments) alpha-strikes are sort of a last ditch effort that could sink you as often as save you.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 04 April 2014 - 07:45 AM.

[kapusta11]

Roland, on 04 April 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

But you're just doing what Ghost Heat did... creating a convoluted system which fails to address the actual issues. And as a result, you're just going to push people towards the cases which aren't affected by it.

For instance, your system doesn't do anything to address cool running weapons. I could load up multiple Gauss rifles, and you haven't done anything to stop it.

If you want to address the REAL issue, then you need to prevent people from duct-taping multiple guns together and firing them as though they were a single giant gun. THAT is the problem that needs to be solved.

As long as people are afraid to address the actual problem, then you end up getting crap like Ghost heat.

Ballistics are already addressed by tonnage and crit space, you cannot load up multiple Gauss rifles without putting XL, and only on specific chassis. The "REAL" issue you've mentioned is just a result of ACs being paired with cheap PPCs.

Current heat system allows energy weapon's low weight and crit space to be abused, additional heatsinks are optional, dissipation is too low anyways.

I don't agree with enforced chainfire though, there's no logic behind that just like with the ghost heat, If you want to decync shots in time it can be achieved in many other ways for example by changing projectile speed which has been done allready.

Edited by kapusta11, 04 April 2014 - 08:00 AM.

[Davers]

Black Arachne, on 04 April 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

It's better to boat ballistics - far superior to lasers in all areas. Ammo isn't even a concern.

Not really a good comparison as they use different hard points.

[Roland]

kapusta11, on 04 April 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Ballistics are already addressed by tonnage and crit space, you cannot load up multiple Gauss rifles without putting XL, and only on specific chassis. The "REAL" issue you've mentioned is just a result of ACs being paired with cheap PPCs.

Nah, it's due to being able to group weapons in general. Every configuration that folks have complained about stems from this. Grouped AC20's is probably the easiest example... Dual Guass boats in the past... etc.

Virtually all of the major balance issues to date have stemmed from this.

kapusta11, on 04 April 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

I don't agree with enforced chainfire though, there's no logic behind that just like with the ghost heat, If you want decyncing shots in time it can be achieved in many other ways for example projectile speed.

Honestly, there's plenty of logic behind it... If they had just made it always run chainfire mode from the beginning, no one would have complained. It's only now, that it's different from the status quo, that it seems "strange".

And really, it'd fix most of the balance issues that we've run into in the past.

Jumpsniping? No longer a huge issue. Dual AC20 mechs? No longer an issue. Boated ANYTHING? No longer than issue.

And it's ridiculously simple compared to other proposals.

[Roland]

Ghost Badger, on 04 April 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

Gauss is a bit of an outlier man, and it's cool-running advantage is countered by extreme weight, and the explosive quality. It's balanced individually against it's negatives.

It's really not an outlier though.
Without ghost heat, then dual 20's fall into the same category.

Anything that is boated falls into this category. It's generally WHY folks boat weapons.

Ghost Badger, on 04 April 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

From what I recall in lore (and this is NOT a place I go to often for arguments) alpha-strikes are sort of a last ditch effort that could sink you as often as save you.

The reason is because in battletech, you'd be incurring all the heat from all those weapons, but they weren't all gonna hit the same location. If you fired 9 medium lasers at a target, you weren't gonna do 45 damage to a single location. You'd do 45 damage spread over the whole mech.

Now, we don't want to add in random spread to this game.. but if you made it so you had to fire each of those weapons individually, then the effect would be that they'd be spread over the mech.. but you'd have the ability to reduce that spread through pilot skill.

[Ordellus]

Add 60-80 dollars to the coffers of Titanfall, b/c it not a complete waste of hard drive space