62 replies to this topic

[mailin]

I find it funny that there is criticism being leveled at the Shadowhawk' maneuverability. I say this because with jump jets you have incredible maneuverability. I can't tell you how many times I have completed a match in my shadowhawks with over 500 damage and less than 30% health (and that's with XL engines). They can be fast, they have a wide range of weaponry available and have jump jets. When I got my Kintaro, the only thing I wish it had were jump jets. Since I got my Phoenix mechs I haven't driven any other mediums, and I have Centurions, Hunchbacks, Kintaros and Cicadas all mastered.

[Hawklaser]

How would the Dragon 1N work for a newer player looking for something with decent mobility and flexibility to start with? Decent mix of weapon hardpoints which are not all focused in one spot, which is the only problem I have been having with the Hunchback due to that area being focused pretty hard by enemies.

I know earlier I mentioned finding enemy missiles to be annoying, that is more due to some instances when they get a lock, can be a bit tricky to break the lock before getting swarmed by the missiles depending on the maps and location. So having some option to deal with them would be nice, and noticed most mechs have at least an option for an AMS, provided can have the extra tonnage to put it in with ammo. At about 9.6m Cbills after finishing up the cadet games, which would leave me with a bit left over to tweak the Mech to find out what I like/dislike.

[Koniving]

Hawklaser, on 07 April 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

How would the Dragon 1N work for a newer player looking for something with decent mobility and flexibility to start with? Decent mix of weapon hardpoints which are not all focused in one spot, which is the only problem I have been having with the Hunchback due to that area being focused pretty hard by enemies.

Many will ask you to shy away from Dragons.
I suppose I should let you judge for yourself. Perhaps you can use my recent experiences with them?
These three videos were made after the April 1st patch. Keep in mind that the first two builds for the 1N were somewhat random and huge new-player quality mistakes were made in both of the first two matches. The third build is an optimized, tried and true 5N with no mistakes made.
Mountain Dragon.
Ambushed Lance.
Dragon takes defensive enemies and base turrets.

I've begun pulling out my Centurions and Dragons again after a long time and I'm having a bit of fun. Dragons, like Catapults, have large side-accessible center torsos. The side torsos encompass below the arm-pits and the shoulders. This is what makes people shy away from them.

My only recommendation is that you at least get an XL 275 from a Shadowhawk 5M, Griffin 3M, or Wolverine 7K to XL 300 engine from any affordable mech that has them first or shortly after you get a Dragon. Alternatively if you get the Dragon first, get a big standard engine and build with hit and run in mind; do not engage in any sort of endurance fight because Dragons struggle to have both speed and good firepower.

[Malorish]

Anvil ZA, on 05 April 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

This is probably the best place for me to venture into the forums for the first time, so let me be the first noob to seek advice. I've been playing mwo for a month or 3 now, but still haven't found a mech that's completely me. First off, some background (this may take a while).

My first bought mech was the Victor, which I bought due to it's mixed hardpoints and the fact that it could be chopped and changed to suit different roles. I enjoyed brawling with an AC-20 and 2 LLas (once I started to think of it more as a "super-heavy" rather than a full-blown assault), but also had some fun with the 9S and a Gauss/2 L Pulse combo. After elite, I went for an Atlas and quite frankly battled to find a setup that really worked. So that is sitting on the shelf for now. Also went ahead and got a stalker 3f(c) (was on sale) and so far it's my fave mech and gets the best results. I like the long range support role and can hold my own 1v1 with the 4 mlas.

However, here comes the part where I need advice. I miss being able to brawl and get into the thick of the battle, so was looking at the Misery as my 3rd stk. Any thoughts? It is quite a bit of mc and I really don't want to regret it down the line. In terms of weights, I'm definately a heavy/assault player, mainly because i live in South Africa and my ping/line stability make it difficult to be nimble and accurate in lights/meds. Which means I'm looking for a mech that can take a certain amount of punishment. Also, I am quite happy being the slow and heavy guy that puts the final few nails in the enemy's coffin. MC and C-Bills are not an issue, I don't mind spending if it's worth it, and will happily grind for hours for extra bucks.

Extra thought, I like dakka, but IMHO most ac are not very forgiving, so for me bigger is better, so that when I do hit, it counts.

Thanks in advance, all help is appreciated
Anvil

Brawling is not supported by the current meta, and frankly is virtually impossible to play well consistenly (especially in pugs). You'll end up very frustrated most of the time, and occasionally have a totally fantastic game. But in the end it will kind of suck your soul out (trust me I tried . . .).

That doesn't mean there's never brawling, it just means that it's mostly done towards the end of games (or the frozen city map when both teams have a lot of ecm, or inside the HPG Terminal roach motel). It's also mostly done by builds that aren't specifically for it. Yes you'll see a number of AC 40 JM6's (I saw an absolute crap ton yesterday), but they're easily defeated by someone who can readily identify them.

But brawling in the current MWO meta is part of the "end game" where essentially the match is nearly decided anyway (though I've seen a good brawler turn things around once people got close in on a map like River City . . . but again very rare).

[Malorish]

Hawklaser, on 07 April 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

How would the Dragon 1N work for a newer player looking for something with decent mobility and flexibility to start with? Decent mix of weapon hardpoints which are not all focused in one spot, which is the only problem I have been having with the Hunchback due to that area being focused pretty hard by enemies.

I know earlier I mentioned finding enemy missiles to be annoying, that is more due to some instances when they get a lock, can be a bit tricky to break the lock before getting swarmed by the missiles depending on the maps and location. So having some option to deal with them would be nice, and noticed most mechs have at least an option for an AMS, provided can have the extra tonnage to put it in with ammo. At about 9.6m Cbills after finishing up the cadet games, which would leave me with a bit left over to tweak the Mech to find out what I like/dislike.

Stay away from the Dragon. It looks cool, but it's hardpoints are often too low for the kinds of cover you'll find in MWO. Remember you want to get that mech to master level, and to do that you'll need to buy 3 variants and level each of them. Doing that with a Dragon in the current meta would be brutal.

Honestly, if you're set on a heavy being your first mech, and you're looking for a ballistic/energy build, I'd suggest you go with a JM6. If you're looking for a LRM build, go with a Catapult.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

Koniving, on 07 April 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Many will ask you to shy away from Dragons.

Well Dragons are the underdog-type of heavy,i played a lot with the trial champion Dragon back in the day and it was awesome,bit fragile but awesome.

If Hawklaser wants a cheap,nimble and jump jet capable mech,i`d recommend the Quickdraw 5k in this form,nice mech to learn jump-jetting ABC:s Fat Jenner.
The other variants dont have DHS as standard,so beware the hidden costs when eliting this chassis.

Sure you can make harder hitting builds in same weightclass,but i personally had the most fun in this game in similar laserboats.In them it really does not matter how poor your aim is because you never run out of ammo.
Take the trial Hunchy for a spin and judge yourself,quickie handles similar but has better armor and jump jets.

[luxebo]

Hawklaser, on 07 April 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

How would the Dragon 1N work for a newer player looking for something with decent mobility and flexibility to start with? Decent mix of weapon hardpoints which are not all focused in one spot, which is the only problem I have been having with the Hunchback due to that area being focused pretty hard by enemies.

You will actually be focused even more with the Dragon, they will attack your Center torso like crazy. While I don't suggest the Dragon as a first mech, they do serve a purpose as a fast raider and once with enough XL engines to try around, you'd be able to have a ton of fun going around with the Dragon. Torso twist and speed is mandatory to minimize damage. Hunchies will lose their torsos if they don't torso twist, but unless they run XL, they can survive it and still zombie a bit, while Dragons if they lose their CT they will die.

[Hawklaser]

Koniving, on 07 April 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Many will ask you to shy away from Dragons.
I suppose I should let you judge for yourself. Perhaps you can use my recent experiences with them?
These three videos were made after the April 1st patch. Keep in mind that the first two builds for the 1N were somewhat random and huge new-player quality mistakes were made in both of the first two matches. The third build is an optimized, tried and true 5N with no mistakes made.
Mountain Dragon.
Ambushed Lance.
Dragon takes defensive enemies and base turrets.

I've begun pulling out my Centurions and Dragons again after a long time and I'm having a bit of fun. Dragons, like Catapults, have large side-accessible center torsos. The side torsos encompass below the arm-pits and the shoulders. This is what makes people shy away from them.

My only recommendation is that you at least get an XL 275 from a Shadowhawk 5M, Griffin 3M, or Wolverine 7K to XL 300 engine from any affordable mech that has them first or shortly after you get a Dragon. Alternatively if you get the Dragon first, get a big standard engine and build with hit and run in mind; do not engage in any sort of endurance fight because Dragons struggle to have both speed and good firepower.

Malorish, on 07 April 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

Stay away from the Dragon. It looks cool, but it's hardpoints are often too low for the kinds of cover you'll find in MWO. Remember you want to get that mech to master level, and to do that you'll need to buy 3 variants and level each of them. Doing that with a Dragon in the current meta would be brutal.

Honestly, if you're set on a heavy being your first mech, and you're looking for a ballistic/energy build, I'd suggest you go with a JM6. If you're looking for a LRM build, go with a Catapult.

So the main problem with the Dragon is that its center torso is fairly exposed on the sides then? And then there is finding a balance of speed and firepower? So in theory, provided engine is what affects speed the most, if I felt I wanted more firepower, I could mount a smaller engine and give up some speed, correct?

The videos Koniving linked did show the kind of gameplay I would be looking for starting out, as the Dragon does seem fairly mobile, and it can have options for most ranges of combat.

On the hardpoint comment, not quite sure how that is going to play into things, other than there is going to be some cover enemies can shoot over that I would not be able to?

Not set on a Heavy per say, as there are a couple of Mediums been looking at as well. Centurion D, Shadowhawk 5M, Trebuchet 7K, and some other heavies as well such as the Jagermech A, and Orion V. The Dragon 1N just seemed to be a nice middle ground of speed and tonnage to start with til I better know what I want, and its other variants don't totally drop one class of weapons if I still want to use them later on. If you look, one thing all of these have in common is a nice mix of hardpoints, which should let me try out a few different loadouts initially to find what works for me.

On the Quickdraw suggestion, I have tried the trial Hunchaback and found it ok other than its weakness of most of its weapons tied to the right torso, which the Quickdraw seems to avoid. The Jumpjets are not a make or break for me at this point, mainly not interested in the Quickdraw series at the moment due to the lack of Ballistic options, as would like to be able to play with all three weapon types initially to find which one I will prefer in the long run.

Edit:

luxebo, on 07 April 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

You will actually be focused even more with the Dragon, they will attack your Center torso like crazy. While I don't suggest the Dragon as a first mech, they do serve a purpose as a fast raider and once with enough XL engines to try around, you'd be able to have a ton of fun going around with the Dragon. Torso twist and speed is mandatory to minimize damage. Hunchies will lose their torsos if they don't torso twist, but unless they run XL, they can survive it and still zombie a bit, while Dragons if they lose their CT they will die.

I find it a bit easier starting out to deal with being dead, than constantly stripped of weapons. Find it easier to learn what did wrong that way, Either way, I am pretty sure about any mech gets focused fired in the center torso, bunched weapon points, or legs depending on the mech, as all three are viable ways to neutralize enemies.

Edited by Hawklaser, 07 April 2014 - 03:56 PM.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

Trenchbuckets too are a solid choice,7K is a great little rig,had some success with AC10 and 2 medium pulse lasers,nearly impossible to overheat it if you upgrade the heatsinks

[luxebo]

@Hawklaser Shadow Hawk, Hunchbacks (although since you don't like the right torso deal, might not be a good choice), Wolverine, Centurion, and a few other mediums/heavies would be varietal if that's what you're looking for Hawklaser. Have you tried Jenner or Dragon in actual action just yet? If the Dragon trial was still out, you could've tried that. The problems with Dragons is that they are reliant on XL engines, a ton of torso twist, and a lot more out of the pilots, as it's not easy driving a Dragon. I would actually suggest it later on, after you get a solid few XL engines from other mechs. It just requires a lot of previous experience.

BTW, You need three different variants to master a chassis. This will make the mechs a ton better after mastering. Also, just in case you don't know about smurfy, it's a reliable site to go ahead and plan builds before hand, maybe you'd like to take a bit to show maybe your ideas on DRG-1N? Take a bit to see what you'd might like later on. http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab

[Koniving]

Hawklaser, on 07 April 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

1) So the main problem with the Dragon is that its center torso is fairly exposed on the sides then? And then there is finding a balance of speed and firepower? So in theory, provided engine is what affects speed the most, if I felt I wanted more firepower, I could mount a smaller engine and give up some speed, correct?

2) The videos Koniving linked did show the kind of gameplay I would be looking for starting out, as the Dragon does seem fairly mobile, and it can have options for most ranges of combat.

3) On the hardpoint comment, not quite sure how that is going to play into things, other than there is going to be some cover enemies can shoot over that I would not be able to?

1) Balance is speed (engine), armor, firepower, ammo, cooling but yes you can make sacrifices in any department to improve another.

2) Keep in mind that in the 2 1-N videos I was running a standard engine and as such did not have much speed or firepower. Standard engines would let you live longer -- in a mech other than a Dragon. Most people don't aim for the side torsos on a Dragon because they are hard to hit. Ironically side torsos are always easier to destroy.

The Dragons in those videos never had more than an 280 engine. The third Dragon, whose right arm has 18 tons of "autocannon" in it is sporting an Extra Light 280 engine. In other words those were "Super Slow" Dragons.

The trial Dragon from before had an XL 300 engine and is considered "slow."
Dragons can go up to a 360 engine which would net you "106.9 kph" for roughly the same weight as my standard engine 1N lost for its engine.

I do have a fight with a stock hero Dragon against another customized hero dragon, but at the time there was repair and rearm and we both had standard heatsinks. One good thing about it is that it shows, contrary to popular belief, a Dragon can take a heck of a beating.

Still a slow, hapless Dragon. I actually don't have any videos of "fast" Dragons.

Other vids. With some other builds.

Spoiler

Older.
Testing the "trial" Dragon champion. Playing with one of Zhizhu's veteran Dragon pilots (Verrick). The idea of a 'slow sniper dragon' was the epitome of heresy at the time. Music from Mechwarrior Online.


Newer.
Trial Dragon after Gauss Chargeup. Music from Homeworld.


Dragon with Zhizhu Dragon veteran Zero Vernias. One of my favorite battles of recent. Two Dragons and a Catapult on HPG Manifold. Music from "Front Mission Evolved." XL 300.


This one I talk about the hitbox updates. XL 300 engine. Very cold build. Music from Total Annihilation. Has paintjob in second match. (Note the bouncy cockpit is me intentionally jerking the mouse back and forth to make it look like a bouncier ride)

Quickdraws can generally reach the same speed with the same engine sizes.

Mediums can perform surprisingly well. Essentially the Dragon is more of a glorified light or medium at best.

3) What people mean is that Dragons are very wide and your depth perception within a Dragon is very 'offset'. You actually have an identical problem in most 'lower arm' Heavies and Assaults.
For example, a Hunchback or Shadowhawk have their weapons in the shoulder on eye level. If they can see it, that shoulder gun can hit it.

Spoiler

Gun and eye on the same level.

Dragons have weapons hanging down.

Spoiler

As you can see it's pretty far from eye sight.


Of course if the Dragon came as originally intended before being reduxed due to lower arm actuator issues that would have ensued at the time...

This wouldn't be an issue.

Not that it is much of one anyway.

Dragons (some of them) do have shoulder hardpoints if you really wanted to shoot over ledges like some sort of pop-and-squat sniper. But otherwise you won't terribly have to worry about it.

[Koniving]

Cookiemonter669, on 07 April 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

Trenchbuckets too are a solid choice,7K is a great little rig,had some success with AC10 and 2 medium pulse lasers,nearly impossible to overheat it if you upgrade the heatsinks

Right now the 7K is the only Trebuchet that I genuinely and unconditionally liked; and everyone told me it would be pure crap.

[Hawklaser]

I have tried the trial Jenner, just don't think will like it long term currently until get fairly comfortable with the maps and controls. Have not had a chance to try out the Dragon myself yet.

Messing around with that mech lab, after switching the armor to ferro-fiborous , and the structure to endo-steel, with all but the legs and arms fully armored, and using the default standard 300 engine, leaves me with 22 tons to play around with for weapons. Which does let me mount about every weapon except for the AC20 and LRM15 and 20's, due to available slots. After that, its just looking to be a matter of balancing weapons/ammo to taste, and getting access to some of the other engines to add extra speed or firepower to it. I do see that it can be rather tight on weight without a smaller or XL Engine, so balancing its speed to firepower/armor will be the fun part, and finding how I will like to play. If you could suggest some decent weapon loadouts that fall within that tonnage, would be interesting to see.

I do have to ask how NARC, TAG, and BAP work, so I know if those might be worth considering for later on.

[Koniving]

BAP is automatic. It has an anti-ECM range in MWO of 150 meters, a 'powered off (hidden mech)' detection range of 200 meters, and otherwise extends your personal sensor range out (from 750 to...800? 850? Not sure).

TAG is basically a beam. There's nothing special about how to use it. It accelerates lock on time (against active ECM), works out to 750 meters (your own sensor range) and......honestly I don't use really use it for missiles that much I use it to make sure my PPCs and cannons will hit what I want to shoot before I waste the heat or ammo.

NARC Missile Beacon... Let's put it this way. You find an enemy. Stick this tracer on it. Now for 30 seconds this enemy you NARC'd is totally screwed and will eventually die by a missile storm of death brought on by some other dude on your team carrying so many missiles that he gets them at wholesale from Costco. (Time-skipped right to the action -- Jenner NARC'd by my Centurion, then LRM'd to death).

I personally don't use ferro. I'm not a fan of it; I'd find more value in it if it allowed me to carry the same weight in armor -- since it's 36 points of armor per ton instead of 32, I'd be able go past the max if I put on exactly the same weight of armor. [Example: 13.5 tons of standard armor = 432 but 13.5 tons of ferro is 486....but not allowed past max]. To paraphrase the final speech from the Dictator: "I lose too much, gain too little."

But until you get an XL engine it can help. (Of all 5 Dragons, I prefer the 5N myself. Just throwing it out there).

[Hawklaser]

So in short, on a Dragon, NARCs would be meh unless doing a premade with a missile boat, though a BAP could be useful for dealing with annoying ECM mechs in your midst.

If the ones in Koniving's videos are considered "slow" Dragons, it does show there is a nice bit of speed flexibility to them, as when have the higher XL engines could pop that on and be faster and keep that firepower which looked to be fairly effective, or eventually stick with the slower style and add more firepower.

Which makes me pretty certain that a Dragon would be a good starting point for me to find what I like, even with the downside of people focusing its center torso, as got the room to try various setups, and see which way to go with weapons and future mechs. And depending on how things play out, could go to a different mech line, or stay with them, either way would have a pretty solid idea of what to look for in a 2nd mech.

Have to ask, how big of a difference is there between a a mastered chassis and a non-mastered one? As if is really needed to find out how well a mech suits a player by driving a mastered one, it would make even more sense to start out with something very flexible like the Dragon, even though it may not be as new player friendly, before having to purchase other mechs and find out hate them. Keep in mind, just new to MWO, not the MW franchise, so on the new player side its more of getting acclimated to the specifics and maps of MWO. Didn't play the other MW games enough to know every nuance, but enough to have a solid foundation once get used to MWO.

[Koniving]

(Truth be told, don't think a NARC can even fit on a Dragon -- oh, guess it can. Could have sworn they were 3 slots.)

It's a hard thing to specifically state the difference.
Basics upgrade:
Cooling.
Maximum heat allowed before shutdown.
Turn speed.
Acceleration.
Deceleration.
Arm Speed.
Twist Range.
Twist Speed.

Elites upgrade:
Convergence (does nothing at the moment; the delays in convergence was removed).
Power on/off speed.
How quickly each weapon can be fired again (reload/refire speed).
Your engine's top speed (XL 360 engine on 60 ton mech: Speed (Normal) 97.2 kph (Elite) 106.9 kph.)

Finishing all 4 elites on a mech upgrades:
Everything in Basic: X2 (times two).

Master upgrades:
An additional module slot.

This is an old shot of the upgrades from the old UI.

Spoiler

Actually spoilered that one because I found another one of my Dragons from back in the day.

I find it nice and easy to read, so to speak. But the individual values are found within each thingy.
Example: Kinetic burst upgrades acceleration by 22.5%.
After you get all 4 Elites, all basics go up x2, so it becomes 55%.

Edited by Koniving, 07 April 2014 - 11:15 PM.

[Modo44]

Please stop referring to the old UI as if it was the savior of all UIs. It was just as shit, only in different ways. One of its problems was being hard coded to the point of blocking improvements.

[Koniving]

I'm aware. But far as information went, it certainly gave it better. Clear, concise, and worded instead of goofy indecipherable symbols.

[Modo44]

And so much fun scrolling to find a specific mech. Yeah, I remember.

[Hawklaser]

I did pick up the Dragon 1N, and finding it to fit my needs quite well so far. Going to take a bit to find a weapon setup I like with a nice balance of punch and heat management(messing around with an AC5 and ER PPC currently), should get easier as buildup the XP for it and can get those mech skills. And it is rather durable even with people focusing the center torso, as not been having lots of problems with that so far unless find myself outnumbered and in a bad spot.

Already finding a few tricks with it too, as can poke an arm around a corner and fire while keeping most of the mech behind nice cover.

As well as experiencing that the standard 300 engine kind of has the mech in an odd spot due to the weight/speed combo it has with it. Not quite fast enough to get by with lower end firepower, but not quite enough weight for weapons/heatsinks to have a strong or semi-sustained punch when can abuse cover/have someone closing in on you. Now to figure out if want to end up slightly slower, or where to get the XL300 cheaper so can be a bit more varied with the Mech for the time being.