795 replies to this topic

[Roadbeer]

Ordellus, on 08 April 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

Whatever makes you feel better.

Awww Puddin
Show me on the doll where the Evil Premade Boogeyman touched you.

[Craig Steele]

Mystere, on 07 April 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Which begs the question: In the dystopian universe in which Battletech was set in, what restrictions and rules did the "Great Houses" follow while waging brutal warfare that killed billions?

The answer is: None!




Oh, wait! There is one rule they did follow: Don't target jumpships!

Dang it! I thought I was on to something.

Well actually, the answer is lots.

It was called the Ares Conventions.

Afaik it have never been fully detailed in all its articles but the broad brush includes things like no WoMD, fighting away from population centres, treatment of mercs and many others.

[Koniving]

Craig Steele, on 08 April 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

But if teamplay was the only driver, wouldn't the same group of players be all playing another game together. The team speak would still be active cause its the common denominator of the group. IDK? Maybe there are rules about the team speak channel.

My group has this issue or something similar. What's going on is we've had some serious balancing issues go on far too long, and while ghost heat helped for about 1 month, we quickly learned ghost heat doesn't mean a damn thing and it has punished the only thing that lets us have our illusion of correctly done autocannons (the multi AC/2 macro).

Add to this that PGI has punished energy based builds time and time again to the point that while they are balanced, autocannons are not. SRMs just barely are getting close. It's been 2 years and virtually little effort has gone to flamers. ECM was never done right. It still combines Electronic Warfare Equipment, Guardian ECM, Angel ECM, and Stealth Armor (this alone is 12 slots) for a meager 1.5 tons and 2 slots. The design pillars of information warfare, of role warfare, are frequently tossed out or disregarded or in some cases punished.

Spoiler

A member of our group, who was defending a base, was punished because of "obstructive" and "non-participative" gameplay. Non-participative because his role was to guard the base while we're away, and obstructive because after being disarmed he kept alive and kept taking abuse to stall while we got back to base to help him out. Seriously, punished for it! Okay, so it was a warning but the point is a warning for playing the game as originally designed! Defending the goddamn base! Oh sure PGI solved that, now we have turrets to make sure we our bases are safe since we can't protect our own bases!

It wasn't much different than what happens in this video.

So far, aside from that... We can't have diversity in our builds. We can't make a composition of the mechs we can afford (since everyone can run the top dog crap after removing repair and rearm the system gets nothing but abuse). We can't have SRMs that work like SRMs, instead we have glorified short range MRMs! Two years, we never got our mech mortars. Clans? Apparently they took a page from Front Mission and/or Armored Core there.

Yes, I know they are busy. But the guy who designs the weapons isn't the guy who has to program community warfare. He's working on Laser AMS! Okay, great so you take AMS, have it generate heat instead of drain ammo and you change one particle effect and sound effect for another light show and a rapid pew. Great! How about a flamer that works? Example: The hotshot Flamer variant; it fires a bit of napalm, has a cooldown, burns the target for a bit, and we don't have to worry about 'locking people down' because even if you boat the damn things you aren't gonna have enough to shut someone down for long. While we're at it, since we can't have burst fire or automatic autocannons with a damage over time mechanic, MGs at the moment are perfectly balanced -- yet the other guns aren't and never will be. So instead of a DPS-MG, why not a burst fire MG with a cooldown time? After all from the source material Flamers, MGs, and AC/2s do the same damage within a 10 second period.

Except... in 10 seconds on MWO, flamers do 7 damage. MGs do 10 damage. And AC/2s in excess of 38 damage. LRMs are apparently at 1.10 damage per missile. Streaks not only benefit from Artemis with no penalty (as they have for nearly two years), but now do 2.5 damage per missile while SRMs do 2 damage per missile, and we're about to see a lot more streaks when the Clans get here. Autocannons churn out huge chunks of damage and Clans... they don't have autocannons, they exclusively have Ultra Autocannons. Just picture two UAC/20s in the style that MWO has UAC/5s. Not at all a problem if say a UAC/20 took 6 shots to do 20 damage or 12 shots to do 40 and had two firing speeds (one that can jam at 12 shots in 4 seconds and one that can't at 6 shots in 4 seconds).

This is why the numbers in our group have moved to other games. We have pitched ideas, we have asked, we have pleaded. Upfront damage combined with pinpoint just isn't going to work on the grandiose scale that's coming up. This game either needs all weapons to convert to that scheme, or we need a LOT more weaponry to switch to damage over time mechanics. Otherwise every time someone combines a low heat and a high heat ballistic weapon (i.e. PPC + anything), we'll have people crying to nerf shit that doesn't need nerfing. It'd be nice if instead the styles of how the weapons work were different.

And if hit detection is an issue? Welp, stop pushing more speed from the damn mechs and work with the speeds we can have and rebalance the weapons accordingly -- speed isn't quite so important when weapons aren't taking 30% of the mech's health in single shots.

*Sigh.*

And I just ranted. Btw. The following scores were achieved with a fast 97-ish KPH Griffin 3M with 1 LRM-20 rack, 1 medium laser, 1 tag, and 3 streaks. And they were back to back.

Spoiler

Koniving, on 08 April 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

So second game of the day, first one with the Griffin (before that was a Wolverine).

Spoiler

Griffin 3M.
XL 255.
Endo Steel
LRM20 + Artemis.
3 Streaks.
Tag (LT)
ML (RA)
BAP (CT)
3 JJs.
4 tons LRM ammo.
2 tons streak ammo.
AMS and 1 ton AMS ammo.

10 DHS (none added; all from the engine itself.)

Second match for the Griffin.

Spoiler

Which brings me to my next point. Streaks are not physics defying missiles (and wouldn't need to be if the mechs were not faster than the 3150 era mechs). There isn't any reason to carry regular SRMs, if 1 SRMs have no guidance (when in lore they have guidance that doesn't require hard locks) and when Streaks never miss. Yes, streaks only fired when they could hit, but it's better that they can fire and miss instead of never fire or be able to do 9, count it 9 orbits around a mech before ramming its rear ammo dump and exploding!

I like playing this game. I loved it back then. Now, the skill required in this game is gone. Delayed convergence removed. The need for a steady hand, the need for tactics... Doing things like powering off to let an enemy walk past you to sneak by them to get to their base (ban!), coming out to do a false surrender to get the drop on your enemy (impossible), taking the long route to get to the enemy force from an advantageous position (bannable offense; non participation), old and awesome tricks to get by with low speed in a medium (doesn't matter; instantly destroyed with 35 to 60+ damage alpha strikes that ghost heat won't even touch because the heat system itself is jacked)....all of it... that's all gone.

And now, this is what it's come to. 3 assaults, 3 heavies, 3 mediums, and 3 lights. You know exactly what they will have. You know exactly what they are going to carry. And because of piss-poor map design, you know that they will be at 1 of 1 to 3 choke points per map because a map designed around NOT having choke points is too much to ask.

At one point we were even given the implication that weapon variants -- different versions of the weapons we can get, would become available. What do we have instead? Weapon modules.

I don't want a damn module, I want to switch out this damn Maxell medium laser for a Diverse Optics type 2 or Diverse Optics type 14. Maybe even switch it out with a Rassal Blue Beam. Don't know what that is? It's a medium laser variant known for its blue beam as it's a little higher on the damage per tick spectrum with a very short beam time and a longer cooldown that still manages the same DPS as any other medium laser. Or perhaps the Starflash Medium Laser? It's does very little damage per 'flash', but it makes many rapid flashes with a very short cooldown time (yet still does the same DPS).

But with that pipe dream out the window too... What I want to know is if the reinforcements thing, the dropship mode now replaced by the launch module... the whole I brought 3 other mechs with me thing... where's that now? I've been waiting more than two years for it.

Which reminds me... in two years.. "We have balance about where we want it," Paul said. "Flamers are getting a tweak." ...Not here. "We do feel that Autocannons are just a little bit more powerful than we intended." Hm? Really... I think it's been said for about two years now.

As you can figure I'm at my own wits end. I don't care of the other stuff comes before or after community warfare but for god's sake let's hear something about it. Let's see something. Let's know something. Those turrets don't have power plants or control stations as described. Because the maps are so small the turrets have all but halted any actual combat on those maps to Gears of War style pop-and-squat fights to see which mech can alpha strike the other mechs to death. Then of the maps we have only four of them can even handle Paul's one sided assault ideas and the mechs are too fast for that to work anyway.

You know what I miss? I miss not knowing what is around that corner when I'm playing. I miss when the minimap only updated once a second. I miss when I could walk in a Centurion, put my shield in front of me hook my cannon under the shield and briskly charge at someone at 64.8 kph and hear someone say "Centurions incoming!" I miss the days when I can be charging at someone and see that some of the enemies shots are flying by me -- not because he is incompetant with his aim but because he was rushing his system to fire before it fully converged on me from that long range target he was just shooting at. I miss having a reason to target someone's arm instead of their side torso. I miss when things didn't freaking die just because I blew off a shoulder. I miss when I could go into a match and see that an ally couldn't repair his mech all the way. I miss when someone thanked me for saving them instead of complaining about stealing their kill. I miss luring a team of two Atlases into a tight space between some buildings as a group of Hunchbacks only to emerge sandwiching them in and blasting them to hell. I miss the design pillars of this game. I miss the ideas and ambition the game had when it started. I miss the creativity, the originality of the battlefields. I miss going on a map and seeing that PGI had intentionally set up blatantly obvious points where destruction was likely to play a role in not only something for fun but in obstructing pathways.

...I miss Mechwarrior Online. The way it used to be.
I miss what Mechwarrior Online was striving to become.
3/3/3/3... isn't it. That's the opposite direction. That's Hawken. **** Hawken.

Edited by Koniving, 08 April 2014 - 10:17 PM.

[Roadbeer]

Koniving, on 08 April 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

...I miss Mechwarrior Online. The way it used to be.
I miss what Mechwarrior Online was striving to become.
3/3/3/3... isn't it. That's the opposite direction. That's Hawken. **** Hawken.

Hey, maybe in the downtime between Clans and the 4th Soon^TM for Community Warfare we'll be able to do some Parkour in our mechs... wait, that's been done too, and I think that would require collisions of some sort, not Ghost Terrain.

[Koniving]

Roadbeer, on 08 April 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

Hey, maybe in the downtime between Clans and the 4th Soon^TM for Community Warfare we'll be able to do some Parkour in our mechs... wait, that's been done too, and I think that would require collisions of some sort, not Ghost Terrain.

All I know is it's ******* depressing.


I saw this, thought it was cool... and instead of "Wow I can't wait to see the next one," you know what came to my mind?
"Those guys are really good at intentionally not hitting this Hunchback. In a real match, he'd be dead before he could even turn around."
If we can't get anything else, we need something to spread our fire. Though I'd prefer automatic fire with damage over time as opposed to losing single max upfront damage shots into the air.

[Roadbeer]

And all of this would be remotely forgivable if we could just play with our friends, but instead we get TS chatter like this.

Roadbeer: WTF just happened there?
Teammate 1 :Well, do you want to know about Bravo lance feeding into the PUGZAPPER one at a time, or the lights from Charlie lance that harassed the OP4s blob one at a time to die in a spectacular unmilitary like fashion?
Roadbeer: Well, we still have the other 2 from Charlie lance, lets post up here
Teammate 2: Nope, one just popped his top with a 70 tube Stalker standing in lava and firing an alpha, and the other is a DC
Teammate 5 (unsynced and in another drop somewhere): Want to go play Planetside after this?

Edited by Roadbeer, 08 April 2014 - 10:32 PM.

[Koniving]

My problem here, Roadbear, is my friends don't want to play.
PGI removed all the skill involved in the game. There was once a moment when Streaks required skill to use. Streaks! Skill! Can you believe it?


In this fight, 2013 early January... Watch the fire from my UAC/5. There's a moment when I rushed my weapon to fire after having aimed at something far away, where my convergence is completely borked and goes way off.


And here... Proof that with delayed convergence, it was perfectly viable to have a 64.8 kph Hunchback and last!


Some other good times. I really miss



5:30 and in this fight into this one with another catapult; the popcorn of ammunition exploding within the mech! (Happens at near 5:55) and then 6:20 in the commando match... Ever been a rag doll repeatedly thrown around the map? Hilarious!

Edited by Koniving, 08 April 2014 - 11:03 PM.

[Gasoline]

Koniving, on 08 April 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

Spoiler

My group has this issue or something similar. What's going on is we've had some serious balancing issues go on far too long, and while ghost heat helped for about 1 month, we quickly learned ghost heat doesn't mean a damn thing and it has punished the only thing that lets us have our illusion of correctly done autocannons (the multi AC/2 macro).

Add to this that PGI has punished energy based builds time and time again to the point that while they are balanced, autocannons are not. SRMs just barely are getting close. It's been 2 years and virtually little effort has gone to flamers. ECM was never done right. It still combines Electronic Warfare Equipment, Guardian ECM, Angel ECM, and Stealth Armor (this alone is 12 slots) for a meager 1.5 tons and 2 slots. The design pillars of information warfare, of role warfare, are frequently tossed out or disregarded or in some cases punished.

Spoiler

A member of our group, who was defending a base, was punished because of "obstructive" and "non-participative" gameplay. Non-participative because his role was to guard the base while we're away, and obstructive because after being disarmed he kept alive and kept taking abuse to stall while we got back to base to help him out. Seriously, punished for it! Okay, so it was a warning but the point is a warning for playing the game as originally designed! Defending the goddamn base! Oh sure PGI solved that, now we have turrets to make sure we our bases are safe since we can't protect our own bases!

It wasn't much different than what happens in this video.

So far, aside from that... We can't have diversity in our builds. We can't make a composition of the mechs we can afford (since everyone can run the top dog crap after removing repair and rearm the system gets nothing but abuse). We can't have SRMs that work like SRMs, instead we have glorified short range MRMs! Two years, we never got our mech mortars. Clans? Apparently they took a page from Front Mission and/or Armored Core there.

Yes, I know they are busy. But the guy who designs the weapons isn't the guy who has to program community warfare. He's working on Laser AMS! Okay, great so you take AMS, have it generate heat instead of drain ammo and you change one particle effect and sound effect for another light show and a rapid pew. Great! How about a flamer that works? Example: The hotshot Flamer variant; it fires a bit of napalm, has a cooldown, burns the target for a bit, and we don't have to worry about 'locking people down' because even if you boat the damn things you aren't gonna have enough to shut someone down for long. While we're at it, since we can't have burst fire or automatic autocannons with a damage over time mechanic, MGs at the moment are perfectly balanced -- yet the other guns aren't and never will be. So instead of a DPS-MG, why not a burst fire MG with a cooldown time? After all from the source material Flamers, MGs, and AC/2s do the same damage within a 10 second period.

Except... in 10 seconds on MWO, flamers do 7 damage. MGs do 10 damage. And AC/2s in excess of 38 damage. LRMs are apparently at 1.10 damage per missile. Streaks not only benefit from Artemis with no penalty (as they have for nearly two years), but now do 2.5 damage per missile while SRMs do 2 damage per missile, and we're about to see a lot more streaks when the Clans get here. Autocannons churn out huge chunks of damage and Clans... they don't have autocannons, they exclusively have Ultra Autocannons. Just picture two UAC/20s in the style that MWO has UAC/5s. Not at all a problem if say a UAC/20 took 6 shots to do 20 damage or 12 shots to do 40 and had two firing speeds (one that can jam at 12 shots in 4 seconds and one that can't at 6 shots in 4 seconds).

This is why the numbers in our group have moved to other games. We have pitched ideas, we have asked, we have pleaded. Upfront damage combined with pinpoint just isn't going to work on the grandiose scale that's coming up. This game either needs all weapons to convert to that scheme, or we need a LOT more weaponry to switch to damage over time mechanics. Otherwise every time someone combines a low heat and a high heat ballistic weapon (i.e. PPC + anything), we'll have people crying to nerf shit that doesn't need nerfing. It'd be nice if instead the styles of how the weapons work were different.

And if hit detection is an issue? Welp, stop pushing more speed from the damn mechs and work with the speeds we can have and rebalance the weapons accordingly -- speed isn't quite so important when weapons aren't taking 30% of the mech's health in single shots.

*Sigh.*

And I just ranted. Btw. The following scores were achieved with a fast 97-ish KPH Griffin 3M with 1 LRM-20 rack, 1 medium laser, 1 tag, and 3 streaks. And they were back to back.

Spoiler

Which brings me to my next point. Streaks are not physics defying missiles (and wouldn't need to be if the mechs were not faster than the 3150 era mechs). There isn't any reason to carry regular SRMs, if 1 SRMs have no guidance (when in lore they have guidance that doesn't require hard locks) and when Streaks never miss. Yes, streaks only fired when they could hit, but it's better that they can fire and miss instead of never fire or be able to do 9, count it 9 orbits around a mech before ramming its rear ammo dump and exploding!

I like playing this game. I loved it back then. Now, the skill required in this game is gone. Delayed convergence removed. The need for a steady hand, the need for tactics... Doing things like powering off to let an enemy walk past you to sneak by them to get to their base (ban!), coming out to do a false surrender to get the drop on your enemy (impossible), taking the long route to get to the enemy force from an advantageous position (bannable offense; non participation), old and awesome tricks to get by with low speed in a medium (doesn't matter; instantly destroyed with 35 to 60+ damage alpha strikes that ghost heat won't even touch because the heat system itself is jacked)....all of it... that's all gone.

And now, this is what it's come to. 3 assaults, 3 heavies, 3 mediums, and 3 lights. You know exactly what they will have. You know exactly what they are going to carry. And because of piss-poor map design, you know that they will be at 1 of 1 to 3 choke points per map because a map designed around NOT having choke points is too much to ask.

At one point we were even given the implication that weapon variants -- different versions of the weapons we can get, would become available. What do we have instead? Weapon modules.

I don't want a damn module, I want to switch out this damn Maxell medium laser for a Diverse Optics type 2 or Diverse Optics type 14. Maybe even switch it out with a Rassal Blue Beam. Don't know what that is? It's a medium laser variant known for its blue beam as it's a little higher on the damage per tick spectrum with a very short beam time and a longer cooldown that still manages the same DPS as any other medium laser. Or perhaps the Starflash Medium Laser? It's does very little damage per 'flash', but it makes many rapid flashes with a very short cooldown time (yet still does the same DPS).

But with that pipe dream out the window too... What I want to know is if the reinforcements thing, the dropship mode now replaced by the launch module... the whole I brought 3 other mechs with me thing... where's that now? I've been waiting more than two years for it.

Which reminds me... in two years.. "We have balance about where we want it," Paul said. "Flamers are getting a tweak." ...Not here. "We do feel that Autocannons are just a little bit more powerful than we intended." Hm? Really... I think it's been said for about two years now.

As you can figure I'm at my own wits end. I don't care of the other stuff comes before or after community warfare but for god's sake let's hear something about it. Let's see something. Let's know something. Those turrets don't have power plants or control stations as described. Because the maps are so small the turrets have all but halted any actual combat on those maps to Gears of War style pop-and-squat fights to see which mech can alpha strike the other mechs to death. Then of the maps we have only four of them can even handle Paul's one sided assault ideas and the mechs are too fast for that to work anyway.

You know what I miss? I miss not knowing what is around that corner when I'm playing. I miss when the minimap only updated once a second. I miss when I could walk in a Centurion, put my shield in front of me hook my cannon under the shield and briskly charge at someone at 64.8 kph and hear someone say "Centurions incoming!" I miss the days when I can be charging at someone and see that some of the enemies shots are flying by me -- not because he is incompetant with his aim but because he was rushing his system to fire before it fully converged on me from that long range target he was just shooting at. I miss having a reason to target someone's arm instead of their side torso. I miss when things didn't freaking die just because I blew off a shoulder. I miss when I could go into a match and see that an ally couldn't repair his mech all the way. I miss when someone thanked me for saving them instead of complaining about stealing their kill. I miss luring a team of two Atlases into a tight space between some buildings as a group of Hunchbacks only to emerge sandwiching them in and blasting them to hell. I miss the design pillars of this game. I miss the ideas and ambition the game had when it started. I miss the creativity, the originality of the battlefields. I miss going on a map and seeing that PGI had intentionally set up blatantly obvious points where destruction was likely to play a role in not only something for fun but in obstructing pathways.

...I miss Mechwarrior Online. The way it used to be.
I miss what Mechwarrior Online was striving to become.
3/3/3/3... isn't it. That's the opposite direction. That's Hawken. **** Hawken.

QFT

I miss keeping promises, I miss communication, I miss creativity, I miss dedication. I freaking miss the MechWarrior^TM in MechWarrior^TM Online.

I really just began to regain a little trust in PGI until they came along with this wrecking ball called 3/3/3/3. I'm a solo only player, since I have no team (and no friends btw ), but I always appreciate to have a well coordinated team on my side. Other than that I think everyone should be free to play with as many friends as one appreciates. This will change nothing. Abuse of the system is as easy as it is now. Maybe even easier, because you know more of those variables. Also I think it's definitely not a good idea to split the already dwindling community in even more queues.

Further 3/3/3/3 is (imho) just a lazy solution to ship around tonnage limit, which would allow dropship limiting, planning ahead, heck it would be a huge part of CW. And it allows for a little bit of tactical freedom. I'm not a programmer, so what I still don't get is, why is it easier to do 3/3/3/3 instead of a simple tonnage limit?

Since closed beta dedicated community members have made bazillions of really good and easy to implement suggestions for improving the game. PGI/IGP could already bathe in money. If they only would listen to their customers.

Clans are an example of how you can ruin a whole franchise just you because you can. I said it multiple times and say it again. Bring in CW, let the players do their thing for a while, then do a timejump to somewhere when tech has evened out a bit, instead of fiddling around with clan weaponry and omni tech in an already questionable balancing and broken systems.

Dunno if Niko is still following this thread. It's really time for another developer letter adressing the concerns of the community (for a moment I thought about leaving the word 'letter' out). Especially those of Roadbeer and Koniving in this thread. And please read this! Players really want something like that.

Edited by Gasoline, 09 April 2014 - 12:15 AM.

[Roadbeer]

Gasoline, on 09 April 2014 - 12:13 AM, said:

Dunno if Niko is still following this thread. It's really time for another developer letter adressing the concerns of the community (for a moment I thought about leaving the word 'letter' out). Especially those of Roadbeer and Koniving in this thread. And please read this! Players really want something like that.

I don't know, there is just SOOOO many things to point to.

Doing it again would come off like the last #savemwo, they had such a disjointed message that it came off like a bunch of random QQ, I sat through the introductions of those who were going to be 'making a case' and that was all I could stand. I knew it was going to go no where because there were just too many things that people weren't happy with rather than agreeing on a handful of topic that were the most serious to address.

I remember someone droning on about TT values and all I could think was "We're 18 months since that ship has sailed, move on".

And the response to it was very Clintonesque, amounting to "I feel your pain" but nothing came of it.

Even if you were to take the Forumite "experts", just those who have gone balls deep into the knowledge of how the game works, and narrowed it down to 3 "Critical Problems with MWO", not much would come from it. Production cycles are so slow between point A and point B, it would be up to 6 months before any tangible results.

Furthermore, it's only a problem if the "Top 3" see it as a problem. SRMs have been a thing for 2 years, Large groups have been over 500 "temporary" days removed, Pulse Lasers, Front loaded damage, and what the **** is the Command Console for coming on 3 years? On and on and on and the answer is always "But hey, look at this cool new mech"(Even though it basically looks like the last mech, FFS, they're not ALL "humanoid", I can't even remember the last one that wasn't something that looked like Forrest Gump lerping around the battlefeild. What was it, the Locust? before that, the Stalker? Arguably the Jager?)

ENOUGH ******* MECHS ALREADY!

Even then, there's nothing really unique about the mechs released, it all comes down hardpoint locations and it's agility (Don't even get me started about what a wasted opportunity the Quirk System is and how it's only used to NERF good chassis, but never used to BUFF mediocre ones. Oh, 6 PPC Stalkers on the field, how about you use the quirk system to make it attractive to NOT do that, like, oh I don't know, 10% reload speed on missiles, since they're designed to be a missile platform. God forbid you use a chassis's strengths, instead, we get Ghost Heat, ironically a much more complex system than just adding a quirk, but I digress)

So we here we have an almost equal ratio of artists to engineers, but when was the last time we got a map? Instead I can project out the entire line of mechs that will be released into 2015, no surprises, I used to look forward to the new mech announcements, now I can give you, with probably 75% accuracy the very day and chassis that will be released for the rest of the year. Yawn, wake me when something interesting happens.

Wow, got on an anti-mech rant for a second, where was I? Oh yeah, problems.

You can really track it back to the end of Closed Beta, IMO it was around that time when people were SCREAMING "Please PGI, please don't. There is so much that needs to be fleshed out a little, and to open the doors now, you're going to get bad feedback from the free FPS players who just want an easy button before they move on to the next Call of Battlehalo title" and then, the "Top 3" become afraid of their Forums and go from interacting to dictating from on high.

I don't remember exactly when IGP got involved, but it was around then that it seemed development was driven by marketing and not by a desire to make a good game. Get 'em in, get their money, retain what you can. Shovel out the avatars as that's all you really have to sell. So keep 'em coming and features be damned.

1 Game mode a year, it's become our Christmas present. (Archer's sarcastic voice) Hooray.

I don't know why I'm trying to write this at 3 in the morning, but it woke me up thinking about it and it's all so ******* depressing.

Edited by Roadbeer, 09 April 2014 - 02:05 AM.

[Gasoline]

Roadbeer, on 09 April 2014 - 01:39 AM, said:

(spoilered because of length)

Spoiler

I don't know, there is just SOOOO many things to point to. Doing it again would come off like the last #savemwo, they had such a disjointed message that it came off like a bunch of random QQ, I sat through the introductions of those who were going to be 'making a case' and that was all I could stand. I knew it was going to go no where because there were just too many things that people weren't happy with rather than agreeing on a handful of topic that were the most serious to address. I remember someone droning on about TT values and all I could think was "We're 18 months since that ship has sailed, move on". And the response to it was very Clintonesque, amounting to "I feel your pain" but nothing came of it. Even if you were to take the Forumite "experts", just those who have gone balls deep into the knowledge of how the game works, and narrowed it down to 3 "Critical Problems with MWO", not much would come from it. Production cycles are so slow between point A and point B, it would be up to 6 months before any tangible results. Furthermore, it's only a problem if the "Top 3" see it as a problem. SRMs have been a thing for 2 years, Large groups have been over 500 "temporary" days removed, Pulse Lasers, Front loaded damage, and what the **** is the Command Console for coming on 3 years? On and on and on and the answer is always "But hey, look at this cool new mech"(Even though it basically looks like the last mech, FFS, they're not ALL "humanoid", I can't even remember the last one that wasn't something that looked like Forrest Gump lerping around the battlefeild. What was it, the Locust? before that, the Stalker? Arguably the Jager?) ENOUGH ******* MECHS ALREADY! Even then, there's nothing really unique about the mechs released, it all comes down hardpoint locations and it's agility (Don't even get me started about what a wasted opportunity the Quirk System is and how it's only used to NERF good chassis, but never used to BUFF mediocre ones. Oh, 6 PPC Stalkers on the field, how about you use the quirk system to make it attractive to NOT do that, like, oh I don't know, 10% reload speed on missiles, since they're designed to be a missile platform. God forbid you use a chassis's strengths, instead, we get Ghost Heat, ironically a much more complex system than just adding a quirk, but I digress) So we here we have an almost equal ratio of artists to engineers, but when was the last time we got a map? Instead I can project out the entire line of mechs that will be released into 2015, no surprises, I used to look forward to the new mech announcements, now I can give you, with probably 75% accuracy the very day and chassis that will be released for the rest of the year. Yawn, wake me when something interesting happens. Wow, got on an anti-mech rant for a second, where was I? Oh yeah, problems. You can really track it back to the end of Closed Beta, IMO it was around that time when people were SCREAMING "Please PGI, please don't. There is so much that needs to be fleshed out a little, and to open the doors now, you're going to get bad feedback from the free FPS players who just want an easy button before they move on to the next Call of Battlehalo title" and then, the "Top 3" become afraid of their Forums and go from interacting to dictating from on high. I don't remember exactly when IGP got involved, but it was around then that it seemed development was driven by marketing and not by a desire to make a good game. Get 'em in, get their money, retain what you can. Shovel out the avatars as that's all you really have to sell. So keep 'em coming and features be damned. 1 Game mode a year, it's become our Christmas present. (Archer's sarcastic voice) Hooray. I don't know why I'm trying to write this at 3 in the morning, but it woke me up thinking about it and it's all so ******* depressing.

You're absolutely right and I share your pain. That's why I had this weak moment where I intentionally left out the word 'letter'.

I know that there're more threads and more people providing constructive criticism, but this seems the first one, that stayed mostly constructive for 21 consecutive pages. A rarity on these forums...

The most ironic thing is, look at the last maps we got... Mordor and a space map with -10 degrees... yeah... That makes me want to play Lord of the 'Mechs and throw PGI in the caldera.

Yep. The end of closed beta was pretty much where everything went downwards fast. 3PV, Ghost Heat^TM and the bunch of half interested fps players washing at the shores. Now everything feels like: "Hey, PGI, there is a problem with..." - "Have you seen that shiny new Banshee?" - " But you have a prob..." - "Here, look that awesome new Huginn." - " May we at least have an Urbie?" - "Yeah sure... Haha! April Fools!" - "Please? " - "No."

Long story short, I want them to communicate, to interact, to listen and finally to care. My hopes lay low at the moment, just as yours... and yes... it's definitely depressing.

[Magna Canus]

Craig Steele, on 08 April 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

<leadership>
< doubting that they lead to the "It's all PGI's fault" conclusion.>

<@ Magnakanaus, so with your background, you would understand why raw stats are not posted, even with commentary, Interpetive ability is not common. >

<On the money side, the companies annual report is probably all we get to see. >

"those that do not represent themselves may have to deal with ending up with the short end of the stick.
This I disagree with. Not only are those people a major portion of any F2P game revenue (cause they don't grind stuff, they are the $10 each market) it's also a point of view equally valid to any other minority.

For example, that could be rephrased as "Team Players are a minority so they may have to deal with ending up with the short end of the stick". If one side wants to be treated evenly then they should be willing to treat everyone else evenly.

Team play implies commitment (heck I have seen some guilds require certain "training times" and availability for "missions") to some level, and a lot of people already have that in their lives.

Craig Steele, on 08 April 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

If you want my personal opinion, I don't think its the team factor. I think players would be leaving more due to the lack of immersion in the game. There is no substance to the game and a many players (alledgedly) have very little ability to influence the outcome of their matches, it's stompville often.

The "mech stable" means there is very little emotional attachment to your 'toon'.

I don't think the barriers to "team play" helps that though. But if teamplay was the only driver, wouldn't the same group of players be all playing another game together. The team speak would still be active cause its the common denominator of the group.

Hey Craig,
this is getting more fun post for post. =)

On leadership; like most other situations a charismatic leader can open the door, but it is the substance behind that door, the actual team you play with day to day, that keeps you in the house.

On statistics; yes with my background it is evident for me that numbers without context and sufficient parameter reference can be incorrectly interpreted a thousand different ways. This is exactly why PGI needs to either expand on the numbers they present with sufficient complimentary information or just leave it be. There are a large number of unseen factors that even PGI is not able to determine unless they spend a lot more time on those stats; these include things like alt accounts (many people have them), or Unit/Team players dropping solo because of the same reasons you state for solo players (e.g. I have 30 minutes to drop before work). Yes, that person dropped solo, but they also drop with their unit when they have 1+ hours of time to game. I know that this is my personal situation and doubt I am unique in that situation.

Annual report; If you could get one or better those from 2000-2013 that would be great. I could not find any. About the best I have found were revenue estimates that averaged out to about CAD 3Mil. So just over 2,5 USD per year.

Short end of the stick; In a fair world with all things equal, yes everybody would be treated equally and be equally represented. Look at our world today, is this the case? No. To expect it to be the case here by some magnificent exception is not realistic. If you want to be represented then you need to get up and do it (e.g. if you don't vote don't complain). Right now I do think that team players are getting the short end of the stick, which is why Roadbeer, myself, and others are here to represent ourselves and our case. (Also see my closing statment as to why I find Founders/Units to be more "deserving" of representation)

Team play implies commitment; I believe you are singularly focusing on one kind of team with this statement. Yes, there are teams with a strict set of entry requirements and participation. This is fine for those that want that kind of thing, like minds are drawn to each other. That same statement is true for my unit with a broad casual core and a separate section set aside for our more competitive types. I have explained how it works in the Foxes a few posts ago so I wont repeat it. From what I gather Roadbeer has something similar going on with his unit, e.g. fun with a bunch of friends. So, when speaking about units you can't point to one type without also accepting that there are also other types.

Why people leave MWO; Yes, the team play factor is not the only factor. Though not directly mentioned in the OP what Roadbeer and myself are saying though that in the face of abysmal content/variety, many of those team-player BT fans that continue to play (I can't say all since I don't know for sure) do so because their unit/team provide a sufficient "fun anchor". That team/unit provides enough hold to keep them in game and still hoping that content with come and that without it they too would be long gone.

Same group of players; Yes, that is very true. The Golden Foxes belongs to the "Dark Jedi Organization" which was founded long before MWO was a sparkly in Russ' eye. We have a number of channels in our TS dedicated to other games that we all play together besides MWO. Many of the people I am playing MWO with now I will be playing Star Citizen with when the DFM comes out. I don't think that we are unique with that either.

I have to say that there are a lot of assumptions going around on both sides of the fence which is why I appreciate the effort Roadbeer put into this thread more and more. We need to break those barriers, dispel illusion, and find a common solution. Right now a solo only que and a group of any size que sounds like the best place to start. Once solo's experience intense 12-0 rolls without a team in sight they can start to reevaluate their bias vs. teams. Maybe a few will band together on a public TS server to try out the team que and get to like it, making up a casual, come as you like, unit of their own. Gods forbid, maybe someone actually makes a new friend in the process.

I reread a previous post of yours where you mentioned that MWO was "just another MMO FPS". I think this is also a big sore in the eye of BT fans, founders (those who paid to get the ball rolling), and those that invested in the vision of what MWO was "supposed to be". So, if this really is true that MWO is "just another MMO FPS" and is unlikely to become what it was supposed to be, then yes, team/units/groups really have no place here. If that is the case then this game was funded under a false premisis. MWO was supposed to be a team based game, with random groups of solo's being a kind of "place holder" until people chose a faction/merc unit as their team and formed regular groups. Random groups of solo's should not be the norm and would in fact not have an MWO to play in had it not been funded by the founders. So no matter how many micro-transactions are paid in by random solo's we all have to keep in mind that this game would not exist had it not been funded by the founders, that money would never have flowed into PGI's pocket.

[Roadbeer]

Gasoline, on 09 April 2014 - 02:59 AM, said:

Long story short, I want them to communicate, to interact, to listen and finally to care. My hopes lay low at the moment, just as yours... and yes... it's definitely depressing.

This is something that drives me absolutely batshit.

In NGNG 105b with Russ, at the end he asks what the community would rather have, polishing or CW?

Hey Russ, here's a thought, get the **** off Twitter, mosey on over to your own forums and put up a poll that includes things that could be polished up by the end of the year vs Community Warfare. Let us make an informed decision, rather than come back in a couple months after using the feedback on Twitter as your 'exhaustive research' and announce "Herp, the answer was Community Warfare, derp"

[Gasoline]

Roadbeer, on 09 April 2014 - 03:32 AM, said:

In NGNG 105b with Russ, at the end he asks what the community would rather have, polishing or CW?

Tbh, this question was a slap in every single player's face and it drives me nuts. It's not 'or' it's freaking 'AND'!

They're fixwrecking the game since closed beta and it became even worse. And yet they have achieved what? 50% of a system that should be online already since 2 years? New player experience 5%? Wow now that's something that should have been available at the start of OPEN BETA! I remember myself begging for tutorials since they announced open beta... what have we got? 3PV...

Oh and while we're at it... 50% of what? What is your idea of Community Warfare (since you razed every single pillar of the game design philosophy) right now? 3/3/3/3 skirmish/conquest/assault with steiners vs. kuritas/davions vs. liaos/FRR vs. gimped clans?

Spoiler

And the FWL will get World of Tanks...

Oh btw. Liao will have a problem with 3/3/3/3. They have no assaults... and since there'll be no UrbanMech anytime soon they won't get any...

Truth be told, all we have at the moment is Big Stompy Robot Instant Action FPS game with weird mechanics and vague numbers of something we have no idea of. Oh right... and 500 dollars 'Mechs with some goodies we also have no idea of (but they're already 26% to being finished and released in a little more than 2 months - why does this make me want to cry in vain?).

[Joseph Mallan]

Roadbeer, on 09 April 2014 - 03:32 AM, said:

In NGNG 105b with Russ, at the end he asks what the community would rather have, polishing or CW?

Yes.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 09 April 2014 - 04:21 AM.

[Jacob Side]

East Indy, on 06 April 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

People will notice and players will get banned, and there may be a helpful, neighborhood watch-style list of units/clans so groups larger than four can be easily identified.

Remember, we're dudes playing a game run by other dudes actively monitoring us. It's not like there aren't social controls to prevent cheating.

Banned for what???? Playing the game with the limits they're forcing on us.
If it happens that it ends up with more synch drops, well PGI gave us the means to "accidentally" do it.

[Craig Steele]

Magnakanus, on 09 April 2014 - 03:01 AM, said:

Hey Craig,
this is getting more fun post for post. =)


<stats>

<Short end of the stick>

<Team play>

<people leave>

<previous post>

<Stats>, but you can't be critical of them not releasing the data though. If they release it to you (and put yourself in PGI's shoes about that decision) then they release it to everyone and we both agree that interpretive ability is not common. If it was you wouldn't have a job after all So while you may appreciate it and draw some substance, there is 10, 20, 100 (?) others that making mountains out of mole hills. Then, every one is going to insist their understanding is correct and the circles spin faster and faster.

<Short end of Stick> Nope. Just no. We have already discussed that relying on anecdotal evidence leads to distorted conclusions and now you seem to be hinting that you're not even interested in the other side of the fence's position. I get that you're standing up for your 'side' but whether it's 10% or 20%, team players are the minority. You simply can not have it both ways and be fair. If you sit back and say "well they are not saying anything ergo we are right" and they are sitting there saying "we don't have to say anything, we are happy with it" who loses? The onus is on the minority to make a fair argument the majority can empathise with if they want change, not bleat about how unfair it is. There is no point in the minority all getting together and patting each other on the back, you are already in agreeance. Just because someone is challenging your assumptions, that doesn't mean you're wrong, it doesn't mean they are either. It is an opportunity to think outside of your anecdotal evidence.

If you want to make an argument, you need to embrace the majority and understand what the middle ground is. That means asking questions. It means testing your assumptions and deuctions. That may not have to be even with the other side, it just may need some critical thinking. Ie. "I see this and I conclude that, but what else could cause that." This is exactly why I think that alarmist extreme inflammatory statements don't help, they crush critical thinking when everyone jumps on the bandwagon.

<Team Play> I don't think so. I use my own values (and I don't think I am extreme) and if I join a team game I feel a sense of belonging. Lets be honest, thats the whole point "team players" are arguing, its more fun in teams. Then someone says "one more run" I go, ok, one more. And then theres no one to take my spot next game, so I play another waiting for someone to log in, and so on and so on. And before I know it I am cleaning the BBQ tomorrow or I am 2 hours late to bed. Now I know many teams don't ask that, but that is exactly what teams are about. It is about creating an environment where people want to support each other. Some teams are more black and white but all of them imply commitment. Otherwise there's no point to them.

That implied commitment is why (imo) many players don't join team games as often as they play. It's all well and good when you have the time, but when rl is knocking and you only have an hour, you do your drops and move on.

<People leave> your argument here is better presented (imo). It is a lot different to the alarmist "The game is hemarogging players and it's all PGI's fault because they make team play (5-11) hard" which has been uttered in this thread. Imagine the solo PUGGer reading "It's hemmaroging ....." and thinking, but I like the game, whats your problem, go if you don't like it go, no one cares, compared to this presentation here.

<previous post> "just"?? I don't think so. I think the point I was making is that MW:O is competing for a player demographic and the majority of other succesful MMO games focus on accommodating smaller teams / solo's, ergo it's one of the reasons that I think 70% / 30% is a more realistic split. I wasn't going into the space you have.

But to address your points (OMG, me addressing someone's well presented and though out points?? What is world coming to ).

So as I understand it, it's not just founders money that starts a show like this up (happy to be corrected). Even before the invites go out, cash has been raised for premises, salaries, recruiting, systems, hardware, IP, licences, registrations, legals and whole heap of other stuff. Now we cannot quantify the ratio which is where the "I'm a founder, I'm entitled" gets a little hard. For example, if Founders money represented 80% of the first years operating cash, I can understand why Founders would expect the product they 'funded" in 12 months. If an Investment group represented 80% of the operating cash for the first 12 months, I can understand why they would want their agenda items met (whatever they might be).

I'll never take away from someone that for an investment they make they should get the return they expect, but that's not always a commercial reality. Everything is a balancing act.

But then the other side of the coin, what I put into MW:O I don't look on as an investment. I paid for a stable of mechs and some MC and I got it. It came with some fruit (faction thingy's, camo etc) but thats not what I paid for (in my mind). I paid my money knowing that I would be playing those mechs in a certain type of game. That doesn't mean I don't want more, far from it.

Put it another way. If I get a guy to lay a new concrete driveway for me, and he does it then comes to me and asks for payment before he's painted it, I don't care what story he spins me. The most he is getting out of me is the quoted cost of the concrete. I'll pay for what I see value in, but I am not paying him on the promise he comes back and finishes the job.

None of which invalidates concerns about poor communication, delays or delivery on milestones / commitments, but those weren't your points.

[Craig Steele]

Jacob Side, on 09 April 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:

Banned for what???? Playing the game with the limits they're forcing on us. If it happens that it ends up with more synch drops, well PGI gave us the means to "accidentally" do it.

While your sentiment I don't mind, I think your view here is pretty callous.

It disregards the experience of the opposition that have to play against that lop sided team.

Your car can do 100kph, but if you get pulled over doing that in a 60kph zone you're getting a ticket cause the limit is there for a reason (school nearby, houses etc).

If you want to be blase and disregard the "limits" that are there for everyones benefit and "use the tools", don't expect the community to embrace your actions.

[giganova]

You know what they say... One man's 'abuse' is another man's 'metagame'...

[Joseph Mallan]

Craig Steele, on 09 April 2014 - 04:40 AM, said:

While your sentiment I don't mind, I think your view here is pretty callous.

It disregards the experience of the opposition that have to play against that lop sided team.

Your car can do 100kph, but if you get pulled over doing that in a 60kph zone you're getting a ticket cause the limit is there for a reason (school nearby, houses etc).

If you want to be blase and disregard the "limits" that are there for everyones benefit and "use the tools", don't expect the community to embrace your actions.

Does it? I dropped with 3 Lawmen Yesterday... Coastal map. We were 1 Stalker, 3 2Centurions(I was 1 of the 3... well 2 that didn't get disconnected), We went up against, a Orion, 2 stalkers & Highlander and the turrets. I died after 2 Turrets, an Orion and then got slammed between the stalkers... didn't realize the second was there... thought it was another turret

Anyway, no complaint we killed one of the Stalkers, and the Highlander before succumbing to the superior weight. But we gave a great fight and I have no regrets.

[Craig Steele]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 April 2014 - 05:12 AM, said:

Does it? I dropped with 3 Lawmen Yesterday... Coastal map. We were 1 Stalker, 3 2Centurions(I was 1 of the 3... well 2 that didn't get disconnected), We went up against, a Orion, 2 stalkers & Highlander and the turrets. I died after 2 Turrets, an Orion and then got slammed between the stalkers... didn't realize the second was there... thought it was another turret

Anyway, no complaint we killed one of the Stalkers, and the Highlander before succumbing to the superior weight. But we gave a great fight and I have no regrets.

Did quote the right post? I don't get the point you are making here Joseph, sorry