101 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

You are not supposed to peak over hills because with no lateral movement you risk being hit by all the weapons your opponent fires at you. That's a feature not a flaw. It creates a more complex game where you have to move your mech to spread damage rather than having the Devs do it for you.

I guess the natural thing to do with a Mouse-piloted mech is move forward and backward over a hill, but any fool will be able to hit you. You start moving laterally and you force the other player to execute difficult shots.

So the problem is not pin-point alphas, it's players who can't move laterally while shooting. And this is nothing new. Everyone has to learn how to pilot their Mech, but I think it's easy with a joystick and a PIA with a mouse. Anyway, you folks need to accept that Mechs can aim and accurately and start defending your own by being a hard target to hit.

Anyway, I don't have the problems you describe. By the end of the match my mech is damaged all over, but if I had not spread that damage out there would be enough to destroy the mech 2 to 3 times over or more.

[Mazzyplz]

DaZur, on 08 April 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

I almost fell out of my chair when I read this...

Welcome to MW:O pillow fight edition.

i don't really mind if you fall out of your chair, any lego pieces lying around???

when two players shoot a component THEN it should blow up, or require multiple passes to destroy one.
not just bang it's gone because my mech has the good hardpoints

it just cultivates teamwork, sorry if you like being rambo but thats not what battletech should be

[Dirkdaring]

It's funny, the ones that I always see complaining about pin point damage die from standing in one spot or barely moving.

You need to rethink your solution.

[DaZur]

Mazzyplz, on 08 April 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

i don't really mind if you fall out of your chair, any lego pieces lying around???

when two players shoot a component THEN it should blow up, or require multiple passes to destroy one.
not just bang it's gone because my mech has the good hardpoints

it just cultivates teamwork, sorry if you like being rambo but thats not what battletech should be

Not real sure where your drawing your source material from but In battletech, be it TT, cannon or fluff... mechs and their weapons are devastating.

Actually, if you want to be technical about it, PGI's iteration of MW:O is ultra liberal in the provision of mech survivability. In TT your run of the mill light and some mediums would fold like a deck of cards from a single AC/20 round, let along any protracted exchange of weapons fire...

So yeah... Your premise that weapons are too powerful is laughably inaccurate and contrarian to anything relative to mechwarrior.

[Mazzyplz]

oh really? lets half the armor values again then my friend, i guess you're right!!!!!!!!!!

somebody already pointed out last page some interesting stats might wanna check those out.

this isn't call of duty, if i wanted insta kills i wouldn't drive such a slow mech as i do, this is armored combat and in tank games 1 shot kills are not a given.

[Jess Hazen]

op: where is the dislike button?

i still want normal armour points back.

[DaZur]

Mazzyplz, on 08 April 2014 - 07:28 PM, said:

oh really? lets half the armor values again then my friend, i guess you're right!!!!!!!!!!

somebody already pointed out last page some interesting stats might wanna check those out.

this isn't call of duty, if i wanted insta kills i wouldn't drive such a slow mech as i do, this is armored combat and in tank games 1 shot kills are not a given.

Wishful thinking and math out of context does not a salient stat make...

We are talking about the apex weapons (because few people complain about composite mLas damage) AC/10s, AC/20s, Gauss, PPCs... All of them represent the top of their class respective front-loaded damage weapons. 10s do what?... 10 points of damage. 20?... 20 points... Gauss?... 15. The singular weapon and their respective damage is not the problem. It's the composite damage issued by multiple weapons to a singular target location.

Is there a problem with PPD?... Kind of. But it most definitely is not because any one weapon is too powerful.

Don't know what your experience is with older MW titles but I assure you the 5 minute circle of death while trying to leg your enemy - protracted damage attrition scenario is not the solution either...

[Mazzyplz]

yes and that's what i am saying.

if you lower all their damage a little bit and you shoot a compound of several weapons at the same area, you're still doing huge ammounts of damage to an area. which would be fine and fair and not artificially gimp player skill

if you get rid of convergence, you would have even longer battles with people trying to line up a single gun to the leg...
circle battles become even worse.

my guess is you haven't thought this through, if you want to shoot many lasers on a leg it is my opinion you should.
just maybe need 2 salvos instead of 1 to blow it apart,
it is really unfortunate you have to twist what i am saying to make it seem like i want all weapons to do 1 damage.

do away with that strawman and see what else you can come up with

besides, most weapons are fine as they are now.
only uac5, ac5 and ac2 are unbalanced from my point of view

maybe slow down convergence, but to do away with it completely introduces more problems than it solves

[DaZur]

Mazzyplz, on 08 April 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

it is really unfortunate you have to twist what i am saying to make it seem like i want all weapons to do 1 damage.

Mazzyplz, on 07 April 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

The real problem is the weapons are doing too much dmg... that's it.

Twisting? Strawman?

I'm mostly with you on not doing away with convergence... I took umbrage in your inference that weapons are doing too much damage.

That said, The problem isn't even pin-point damage... It's the bastardization of the alpha or more specifically the ability to selectively pick ones weapons and fire those and only those at a given target.

2 x PPC + AC when a player has to click three individual buttons to fire that shot is a world of difference that issuing that same shot with a single button click. (Some folks will argue it is the same... In CB before grouping was implemented, the "meta shot" was not an issue because it was not a perfect harmonious shot mechanic.

PGI's logic is "macros"... and folks were clamoring for the grouping to be included so it was inevitable...

Problem is the alpha shot was intended to be a one-shot all weapons fire desperation shot... not a surgical implementation with only the the choicest weapons.

Try playing with no weapon groupings and you will get the desired effect you are advocating...

[Jess Hazen]

I'm going to go out on a limb right now and say that for this game to be balanced with the upcoming introduction of the clans and their unchangeable paradigm(engine armour and the like). Pgi's only chance at balance it is going to have to include the reverting of armour changes back to normal armour point totals.

I'd just like to see them try and balance this son of a ***** without reverting their armour changes back to the norm.

[Firewuff]

As a couple of other people have suggested, torso weapons dont converge or only converge at their maximum or optimum distances. This spreads the alpha over several sections at a distance. Arm or pod weapons converge at any distance to a min range (you shouldn't physically be able to shoot through a Stalkers nose but right now you can.

Mechs with no arms have a longer min convergance distance than those with arms which gives them the advantage of a high firing position, more hardpoint slots but smaller optimal range than mechs with arms with a low position and less slots.

Arms should also track with convergance, currently they dont and you get weird shit like an Altas shooting at point blank range with a laser beam coming out its weapon at a 45% angle straight up. If the arm can't swing that far you lose convergence.

[Monkeystador]

Lightfoot, on 08 April 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

You are not supposed to peak over hills because with no lateral movement you risk being hit by all the weapons your opponent fires at you. That's a feature not a flaw. It creates a more complex game where you have to move your mech to spread damage rather than having the Devs do it for you.
...

Your argument is wrong right from the start. You can spread the current meta pinpoint when peaking over a hill with lateral movement.

Current AC/PPC meta is way to fast as to spread PPC from AC damage. You lateral speed must very high. Even if you can run that fast, you wont hit anything anymore. Because ridges are bumpy and there are no ridges that long and if there were, even though teh chance is miniscule, there will be another mech in your way, or you cross line of fire or..
So forget about that, it not a skill, it not even in the game. You made it up.

Firewuff, on 09 April 2014 - 02:30 AM, said:

As a couple of other people have suggested, torso weapons dont converge or only converge at their maximum or optimum distances. This spreads the alpha over several sections at a distance. Arm or pod weapons converge at any distance to a min range (you shouldn't physically be able to shoot through a Stalkers nose but right now you can.

Mechs with no arms have a longer min convergance distance than those with arms which gives them the advantage of a high firing position, more hardpoint slots but smaller optimal range than mechs with arms with a low position and less slots.

Arms should also track with convergance, currently they dont and you get weird shit like an Altas shooting at point blank range with a laser beam coming out its weapon at a 45% angle straight up. If the arm can't swing that far you lose convergence.

ahh, glad to see another sensible post on the real matter of the thread.

Edited by Monkeystador, 09 April 2014 - 04:02 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 08 April 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

Any of those are better than an AC/2.



I've never been the type to place bets on things I don't have an almost guarantee of working. Here is a nice video that sort of explains it:


I like reliability.



See above.

Again... I would never use that Ultra AC2 build. Its not my style. I am a risk reward kinda player. I weigh the risk against the reward and decide if I like it. That's why my favorite Mech is MY Stone Rhino. 3x Gauss 2x ERPPC. 16 Dubbs, Full armor 9 tons of ammo total. The peashooter has never beaten it... very few things have!

[YueFei]

Monkeystador, on 09 April 2014 - 04:04 AM, said:

Your argument is wrong right from the start. You can spread the current meta pinpoint when peaking over a hill with lateral movement.

Current AC/PPC meta is way to fast as to spread PPC from AC damage. You lateral speed must very high. Even if you can run that fast, you wont hit anything anymore. Because ridges are bumpy and there are no ridges that long and if there were, even though teh chance is miniscule, there will be another mech in your way, or you cross line of fire or..
So forget about that, it not a skill, it not even in the game. You made it up.

Nope. Lightfoot is absolutely right.

If you're moving laterally at 500 meters in a HBK going 25 meters/sec (90 kph, which is by no means blazingly fast), it will take PPC fire 333 ms to reach you, and AC/5 fire 384 ms to reach you. In the time it takes for a PPC shot to reach you, you'll have moved 8.3 meters. With the AC/5, you'll have moved 9.6 meters. Both of those are a larger distance than the thickness of a Hunchback. Your opponent *must* lead his shot into the background behind you, thus losing pin-point convergence on you.

If you move from left to right, against a "right-handed" mech, and he leads the shot into the background, that also causes further de-convergence between his PPCs and his AC/5's, with an amount up to the distance offset between his weapon ports.... which is in itself already the difference between two hitboxes (an arm hitbox and a shoulder hitbox). There's already a 1.3 meter difference in the hit location because of differences in projectile velocity. Add in the fact that the weapons originate from different locations and by not giving your opponent convergence, and you avoid letting him put all his damage into a single hitbox of yours.

[Karl Streiger]

YueFei, on 09 April 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

Nope. Lightfoot is absolutely right.

If you're moving laterally at 500 meters in a HBK going 25 meters/sec (90 kph, which is by no means blazingly fast), it will take PPC fire 333 ms to reach you, and AC/5 fire 384 ms to reach you. In the time it takes for a PPC shot to reach you, you'll have moved 8.3 meters. With the AC/5, you'll have moved 9.6 meters. Both of those are a larger distance than the thickness of a Hunchback. Your opponent *must* lead his shot into the background behind you, thus losing pin-point convergence on you.

If you move from left to right, against a "right-handed" mech, and he leads the shot into the background, that also causes further de-convergence between his PPCs and his AC/5's, with an amount up to the distance offset between his weapon ports.... which is in itself already the difference between two hitboxes (an arm hitbox and a shoulder hitbox). There's already a 1.3 meter difference in the hit location because of differences in projectile velocity. Add in the fact that the weapons originate from different locations and by not giving your opponent convergence, and you avoid letting him put all his damage into a single hitbox of yours.

Sounds reasonable - means when firing from a upper position its easier to lead the shot?

But what about this HSR - second chance roll? Sometimes I know that i miss fired - and still HSR is detecting a hit... so again the difference in projectile speed is not existent. It would be a matter - with out HSR and ping issues.

And of course there is the question of the missing convergence time from closed beta - it was much harder to lead - mostly because you had problems to neutralize your own movement. Last time i had seen it was in the "Training Ground" where i moved 80° to a Commando...and i moved the mousehair only a second - difference was instead of missing the target left - i did miss the target to the right.... because the "correction" of range and convergence did need longer.

[cSand]

I love all this hand wringing over a non issue


At most you can have 3-4 of one type of weapon on a mech (even extreme case of 4 AC5 if you somehow did that would still only be 20 damage), since all projectiles move at different speeds, PPD is no an issue if you're moving and twisting.

end of story, LTP, have yourself, a wonderful day



(cmon that was a sweet poem)

Edited by cSand, 09 April 2014 - 07:09 AM.

[Mechteric]

If PPC got a splash component

And all AC's became DPS weapons (rather than 5/10/20 points to one spot)

Then you wouldn't need to worry about convergence.

[cSand]

CapperDeluxe, on 09 April 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

And all AC's became DPS weapons (rather than 5/10/20 points to one spot)

that's called a laser mate

[Mechteric]

cSand, on 09 April 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

that's called a laser mate

Lasers don't fire once every 0.5 seconds. Think AC2's but scale up to do more damage as you get the higher AC caliber.

[Ultimax]

CapperDeluxe, on 09 April 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Lasers don't fire once every 0.5 seconds. Think AC2's but scale up to do more damage as you get the higher AC caliber.

A Large Laser does 9 damage over 3 pulses (3, iirc) that takes 1s.

An AC 5, broken into 3 'shots' at 0.5s each, would take 1.5s to deal 5 damage (1.667 per shot).
An AC 10, broken into 3 'shots' at 0.5s each, would take 1.5s to deal 10 damage (3.33~ per shot).

That would make an AC10 completely inferior to a weapon that
> Has nearly half the weight
> Is a hitscan weapon, no projectile speed
> Has no ammo requirement
> Takes up only 2 slots as opposed to 7.



Also, technically, every weapon is already DPS weapon.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 09 April 2014 - 08:15 AM.