90 replies to this topic

[Modo44]

Red Line Pilot, on 23 April 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

mmm, i was under the impression that there was some absolute weight balancing coming on top of the weightclass. Maybe some others can clarify?

Yes, but the matchmaker is trying that already, and it is not very reliable. There is always some "acceptable" Elo and weight delta because otherwise the search would take too long. We currently have no way of knowing whether bringing a lighter mech will reliably pull team mates with heavier stuff in. It may just lead to overall lighter teams being matched, or even have no effect at all (if the "acceptable weight delta" variable is high).

Edited by Modo44, 28 April 2014 - 04:47 AM.

[Trystan Thorne]

Interesting thread. I can’t say much on this as I don’t have a Dragon, but from the first time I saw it introduced to MWO, I thought with those smaller side torsos and the huge centre torso it surely looks like that the XL engine is viable (if the new hitboxes haven’t ruined that now).

I found that playing difficult Mechs increases my skills, so really tempted to play a Dragon.
And if I’m already increasing my skills, why not do it with style and get the Flame (the livery looks great on it).

Been thinking a few weeks about that now. Did loads of OT at work recently, so I might go crazy and spend some MC on it.
Or I might wait a bit and hope for a sale. Though technically speaking it’s on a sale now if I buy the MC for it today.

My plan would be the following:
AC20 + 4 Medium Lasers with the build in 300STD engine at start.
That should give me some nice firepower and I can see how the incoming damage spreads over my Dragon during the first matches.
That should help me prepare for my possibly final build where I will sacrifice some firepower for speed and get an XL engine (should also help me get the CBills for it).
Will go for the 350XL in there and replace the AC20 with an LBX10 and max my armour to full.

Hopefully I’ll be able to master the Flame which should make me a better player.

EDIT: Just remebered that they haven't adjusted the Dragons with the dynamic weapon slots yet and no matter what loadout we have they always show the stock loadout, I might actually wait anyway.
Call me fussy, but I kind of care for such things.

Edited by Trystan Thorne, 05 May 2014 - 03:22 AM.

[Dunning Kruger Effect]

XL all day. (Unless you want an AC20 Flame, in which case I'd suggest there are far, far better AC20-carrying mechs, that do not cost real $$$)

#1. The centre torso is so huge compared to the side torsos, it makes it a no-brainer.

#2. If you need another reason - speed.

If you play PUGs like me, speed is premium. It allows you to escape bad situations caused by idiotic team mates, to ambush enemies or flank them, and to zoom across the map to add your firepower to "tip a battle" in your side's favour.

I find Dragons to be a decent mech. Not great, not "meta" but certainly not as hard to use as an Awesome or Locust.

[Red Line Pilot]

I still find Dragons one of the most fun mechs to play. They are not the ubrpwnzrs one-click to kill em all mechs. But they way they move and make you work for your battles makes driving them so much more gratifying :-)

On topic: YES, run XL's. Otherwise you are either too slow or have no weight left to take weapons with you.

Only exceptopn is the AC20 Flame. But tbh, i don't think that is the best Flame build around. For AC20 brawlers the HBK's and the BJ can do it better imo.

[Vellinious]

Amsro, on 13 April 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

Dual AC/5 + Dual PPC + JJ = Easy Button = One click = Now you get it

Dragons are an easy target so it requires skill to use it. Jenners are also easy to CT core. Definately requires skill to not get dead.

Except there's one big difference. The Jenner is easily the best light mech in the game. As for heavies, there are many other options that are better. Why put yourself at a distinct disadvantage from the very beginning? Are you THAT good, that you must make the game harder for yourself, because it just comes so easy? Funny that I don't know your name, if that's the case...... = )

When the dragon first came out, it was a novelty....a fast heavy when there were no really fast heavies. They're fun to play sometimes, if you don't mind being part of the reason your team loses...but hey, to each their own. When the 3/3/3/3 rule starts in effect, I'm guessing you'll start drawing a little more fire from your teammates for choosing to put THEM at a disadvantage as well. Better pull some serious weight..../shrug

Edited by Vellinious, 06 May 2014 - 11:55 AM.

[Amsro]

Vellinious, on 06 May 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Except there's one big difference. The Jenner is easily the best light mech in the game. As for heavies, there are many other options that are better. Why put yourself at a distinct disadvantage from the very beginning? Are you THAT good, that you must make the game harder for yourself, because it just comes so easy? Funny that I don't know your name, if that's the case...... = )

When the dragon first came out, it was a novelty....a fast heavy when there were no really fast heavies. They're fun to play sometimes, if you don't mind being part of the reason your team loses...but hey, to each their own. When the 3/3/3/3 rule starts in effect, I'm guessing you'll start drawing a little more fire from your teammates for choosing to put THEM at a disadvantage as well. Better pull some serious weight..../shrug

Not really, either a jenner or a dragon I will CT both, the jenner even faster actually. Better change at a lucky headshot on the jenner too.

Good dragon pilots do exist, same with awesome and ANY mech in the game.

I've met TERRIBLE victor and jenner pilots. The mech doesn't win the match the pilot does.

All the rest of the rationalizing is just hot air.

[Dawnstealer]

Dragon, Catapult, and Battlemaster all run an XL well. For that matter, the Wolverine and Griffin run them well, too, but aren't quite the "well...duh" that they are in those first three.

[Vellinious]

Amsro, on 06 May 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

Not really, either a jenner or a dragon I will CT both, the jenner even faster actually. Better change at a lucky headshot on the jenner too.

Good dragon pilots do exist, same with awesome and ANY mech in the game.

I've met TERRIBLE victor and jenner pilots. The mech doesn't win the match the pilot does.

All the rest of the rationalizing is just hot air.

It's hot air, saying it's not a good mech? That there are other heavy mechs in the game that can do exactly what it does, and do it better, without having the enormous CT sticking out in front? lol Ok

[Amsro]

Vellinious, on 06 May 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

It's hot air, saying it's not a good mech? That there are other heavy mechs in the game that can do exactly what it does, and do it better, without having the enormous CT sticking out in front? lol Ok

Yeah, a good dragon pilot doesn't use the shape as an excuse. Instead they kill people.

The Jenner has an "enormous" CT sticking out in front... and I'm pretty sure it is one of the best lights. But of course that one doesn't fall into your cookie cutter rationale though.

[Koniving]

Current Dragon hitboxes. Note that this does not include legs or pelvis. It is after the Dragon tweaks.

Cerulean: CT.
Violet: ST.
Note that STs are the "shoulders" and backside-half of the Center Torsos. The exposed 'belly' up front is still very much CT, but it's not as bad as many often think. Your ST takes a big risk if you lose the arm, however almost unanimously it's better to have an XL than not to in a Dragon.

Edited by Koniving, 06 May 2014 - 04:14 PM.

[Fang01]

Can we stop calling it a belly? Its clearly a snout. That said Dragons are awesome with both layouts.

[Vellinious]

Amsro, on 06 May 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Yeah, a good dragon pilot doesn't use the shape as an excuse. Instead they kill people.

The Jenner has an "enormous" CT sticking out in front... and I'm pretty sure it is one of the best lights. But of course that one doesn't fall into your cookie cutter rationale though.

No, of course it doesn't, because there's not another mech that can do what it does. The Jenner is the best light chassis...the Dragon is far, FAR from the best heavy chassis. Trust me...if there was another light mech that could do what the Jenner does without the huge CT, the light pilots would be all over it. There's just not. There's a reason you don't see many Commando's and Locusts running around...same with the Dragon. Because they suck.....

[ArchSight]

Vellinious, on 07 May 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

No, of course it doesn't, because there's not another mech that can do what it does. The Jenner is the best light chassis...the Dragon is far, FAR from the best heavy chassis. Trust me...if there was another light mech that could do what the Jenner does without the huge CT, the light pilots would be all over it. There's just not. There's a reason you don't see many Commando's and Locusts running around...same with the Dragon. Because they suck.....

Firestarter...

[BOWMANGR]

Vellinious, on 07 May 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

No, of course it doesn't, because there's not another mech that can do what it does. The Jenner is the best light chassis...the Dragon is far, FAR from the best heavy chassis. Trust me...if there was another light mech that could do what the Jenner does without the huge CT, the light pilots would be all over it. There's just not. There's a reason you don't see many Commando's and Locusts running around...same with the Dragon. Because they suck.....

Do you know why people think that Dragon sucks?

Because every time they meet in the same match with a good Dragon pilot, they don't even knοw what killed them. Because that's what Dragons do.

Therefore, you never know when a Dragon performs.

Edited by BOWMANGR, 12 May 2014 - 11:46 PM.

[DarkonFullPower]

Vellinious, on 13 April 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

Question: Why would anyone want to use the dragon, when there are other mechs out there that are far more capable?

Because, at this time, there is no other mech in the game that has a Dragon level of speed, tonnage, ease of XL use, and crazy well placed torso energy weapon hardpoint all at once.

Follow up edit: My fav trick when using a Dragon is to torso twist TO THE CT, because everyone tries to focus the sides. I am amazed at how effective this simple trick is.

Edited by DarkonFullPower, 11 May 2014 - 03:23 PM.

[Vellinious]

ArchSight, on 07 May 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

Firestarter...

The Firestarter is good, but the Jenner is still the top light. Piloting skill being equal, in a head to head matchup, the Jenner will win that fight 9 times out of 10. The FS9 has slower acceleration, less maneuverability, and has bigger heat issues than the JR7. Due to it's max 295 engine size, you can only put one heat sink in the FS9, but you can put 2 in the JR7's 300. Leaving critical space for extra heat sinks in the torsos.

There's a reason the top teams use mostly Jenners.... You'll see an Ember occasionally, but they're there as a crit seeker / finisher. Each of them have their place and role to fill within a drop, but the Jenner is almost always the primary light.

[ArchSight]

^ That doesn't dispute what you said before very well.

Vellinious, on 07 May 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

No, of course it doesn't, because there's not another mech that can do what it does. The Jenner is the best light chassis...the Dragon is far, FAR from the best heavy chassis. Trust me...if there was another light mech that could do what the Jenner does without the huge CT, the light pilots would be all over it. There's just not. There's a reason you don't see many Commando's and Locusts running around...same with the Dragon. Because they suck.....

In competition a mech pilot will likely have almost the same amount of skill shooting their oppenent but differences in strategy and map starting locations will always affect the outcome to some degree.
Speed in competition doesn't matter as much because you'll likely get hit more often with good pilots shooting at you. If those shots can be forced to hit an area that doesn't matter as much the mech will last longer than the other mech that's getting shot. Jenner's are laser boats and fire starters are laser boats that rely on tracking the same spot for one second. The jenner has a CT that sticks out making it easier to track and the fire starter doesn't have a CT that sticks out. The fire starter has Arms that are low slung and stick out at different angles to get in the way of shots.

I'm medium pilot and recognize this weakness on jenners when I blow them up with a couple AC 5's and medium lasers. Jenners CT is not hard to hit at all. I don't even leg them as much as I leg Firestarters, Spiders, Commando's and Ravens.

Dieing faster, better heat effiency, and speed VS not dieing faster, more weapons, and wider angle arm actuators. (Both with jump jets) The speed is almost the same though from a 295 to a 300. Not much of a difference with speed. Plus the firestarter can be equiped with same armement as the jenner-F and have a TAG laser to assist in scouting/spotting while jenner would have to loose firepower or more tons for a narc or bap to do the same job. That difference in engine lets that tag laser be put on.

As much as you debate for the jenner the more your debating for the dragon's big ct. The dragon has better Speed, heat effiency, and die's just as fast.

Edited by ArchSight, 12 May 2014 - 12:09 PM.

[Vellinious]

ArchSight, on 12 May 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

^ That doesn't dispute what you said before very well.


In competition a mech pilot will likely have almost the same amount of skill shooting their oppenent but differences in strategy and map starting locations will always affect the outcome to some degree.
Speed in competition doesn't matter as much because you'll likely get hit more often with good pilots shooting at you. If those shots can be forced to hit an area that doesn't matter as much the mech will last longer than the other mech that's getting shot. Jenner's are laser boats and fire starters are laser boats that rely on tracking the same spot for one second. The jenner has a CT that sticks out making it easier to track and the fire starter doesn't have a CT that sticks out. The fire starter has Arms that are low slung and stick out at different angles to get in the way of shots.

I'm medium pilot and recognize this weakness on jenners when I blow them up with a couple AC 5's and medium lasers. Jenners CT is not hard to hit at all. I don't even leg them as much as I leg Firestarters, Spiders, Commando's and Ravens.

Dieing faster, better heat effiency, and speed VS not dieing faster, more weapons, and wider angle arm actuators. (Both with jump jets) The speed is almost the same though from a 295 to a 300. Not much of a difference with speed. Plus the firestarter can be equiped with same armement as the jenner-F and have a TAG laser to assist in scouting/spotting while jenner would have to loose firepower or more tons for a narc or bap to do the same job. That difference in engine lets that tag laser be put on.

Yeah, the arm mounted weapons on the FS9 help in some ways, but they can also be taken off a lot easier. There are positives and negatives for both mechs, but again, piloting skill being equal...the Jenner's gonna win more than not. I pilot primarily lights, and was VERY excited when the FS9 came out. Unfortunately, for comp matches, we still run Jenners...because they're just better. And it's not even really close.

I think you're confusing speed, with acceleration...the Jenner accelerates faster than the Firestarter, and has much more maneuverability. The Firestarter almost has a "fast medium" feel to it...which is probably why you like it, being a medium pilot. But for the dedicated light pilot, it's an odd ball that feels out of place. Great little mech, and fits well in drops where we need a crit seeker / finisher. But if we're looking at having to hunt down a bunch of lights....we take Jenners.

Edited by Vellinious, 12 May 2014 - 12:15 PM.

[Bromineberry]

Koniving, on 06 May 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:

Current Dragon hitboxes. Note that this does not include legs or pelvis. It is after the Dragon tweaks.

Cerulean: CT.
Violet: ST.
Note that STs are the "shoulders" and backside-half of the Center Torsos. The exposed 'belly' up front is still very much CT, but it's not as bad as many often think. Your ST takes a big risk if you lose the arm, however almost unanimously it's better to have an XL than not to in a Dragon.

Thank you for this picture. Just look at the giant size of the side torsi...so easy to hit.

[Koniving]

Bromineberry, on 14 May 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Thank you for this picture. Just look at the giant size of the side torsi...so easy to hit.

Surprisingly it's the CTs that are easy to hit. The STs are rather difficult, given the way the Dragon "bounces" when it walks and runs (though not so much run). Keep in mind those angles are bad, looking straight on at you the "shoulders" that count as STs are barely the size of the center torso vertically. It's not until the arms are gone that you can really hit the from the side.

Most aim for the CT, which you can hit from the side, front, top, bottom, etc. STs mostly from the front and top unless you remove an arm.