66 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

OK, so yeah, we all know that PGI has their ideas, and ....well, not that well received in general it sound like.

But, as a FOS based game, inherent balance has to be maintained to a reasonable degree, or we see the MetaSurges. We know that the Btech Line Developers, and Devs for MWO all feel the same, that Clan Tech was WAY OP, as implemented, and worse, TBH, simply did not fit into the Clan Mythos.

Clan Warriors fight primarily through Honor Duels, and feel support weapons, Sniping and such to be cowardly and dishonorable (Though taking vastly superior Mechs against their opponents is somehow OK with their honor). Yet..that majority of their weapons are elegant, long range strike weapons. ER Large Lasers, Gauss, ER PPCs and LRMs, which allows them to effectively out-range their IS opponents (especially with the crutch of a targeting computer.... how dishonorable is that?)

​Anyhow, enough preamble.

Clan LRMs are half the weight of IS LRM racks, and have no minimum ranges. Simply put, the Clan Missiles are the most egregious balance breakers, compared to their (eventual) IS counterparts.

I'm OK with that , TBH. But they should have limitations to their use to not only balance them, but fit Clan Ideology better (much as the Heavy Laser concept was meant to do). To do this, I propose:

1) Clan LRMs cannot lock using other mechs targeting data. Hence, no Indirect or "Support" fire, which the Clans supposedly find cowardly anyhow. This lack of extra computers and such might help explain some of the weight discrepancy, too.

2) Have a much flatter firing arc, again, removing them from the realm of "Support" weapon, and making them a LoS Long Range Dueling Weapon.

3) Reduce their Ammo loadouts to TT figures. Clans were notorious for not having enough ammo for long engagements. Clans should dominate the first 5 minutes of a match, and be out of ammo pretty much for the rest (which if played well, the fight should be over, in theory, anyhow)

4) Modules. They should not get Modules that boost inherently "dishonorable" weapons, like Advanced Target Decay.



Just a few of my thoughts. Engaging FlameShield^tm now. Fire for effect.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

Engaging FlameShield^tm now.

Anyways, the main thing that sticks out to me is the ammo part. I can get that it's to counteract the lighter weight and stuff, but all weapons in the game right now already need waaaay more ammo than you ever needed in TT -- LRMs in particular suffer from this harder than any other weapon system. IIRC, being able to last roughly 10-12 turns or so was considered "good." But in MWO, you'll be out in like two minutes with that amount of ammo. It might make people have to either stuff themselves to the gills with ammo for just a few launchers or skip LRMs entirely.



And on a side note, the whole Clan arsenal should probably use different weapon mechanics. Having them just be IS weapons with less weight or w/e is boring. Give me things like Clan SSRMs with MW4 targeting and laser machine guns for Clan pulse lasers!

Edited by FupDup, 14 April 2014 - 10:16 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 14 April 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

Anyways, the main thing that sticks out to me is the ammo part. I can get that it's to counteract the lighter weight and stuff, but all weapons in the game right now already need waaaay more ammo than you ever needed in TT -- LRMs in particular suffer from this harder than any other weapon system. IIRC, being able to last roughly 10-12 turns or so was considered "good." But in MWO, you'll be out in like two minutes with that amount of ammo. It might make people have to either stuff themselves to the gills with ammo for just a few launchers or skip LRMs entirely.



And on a side note, the whole Clan arsenal should probably use different weapon mechanics. Having them just be IS weapons with less weight or w/e is boring. Give me things like Clan SSRMs with MW4 targeting and laser machine guns for Clan pulse lasers!

Well,

IS LRM20 10 tons, 5 crits, 180 meter minimum range.
Clan LRM20, 5 tons, 4 crits, no minimum range.

Seems to me they can afford to toss a ton or two of extra ammo on there if they need to.

Just saying. (And they would still be more powerful that their IS counterparts, which need almost the exact same ammo, ad the ammo count is not much different...actually, I forget, did Missiles get an ammo buff in the first place? ) and still weigh twice as much.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Well,

IS LRM20 10 tons, 5 crits, 180 meter minimum range.
Clan LRM20, 5 tons, 4 crits, no minimum range.

Seems to me they can afford to toss a ton or two of extra ammo on there if they need to.

Just saying. (And they would still be more powerful that their IS counterparts, which need almost the exact same ammo, ad the ammo count is not much different...actually, I forget, did Missiles get an ammo buff in the first place? ) and still weigh twice as much.

IS Lurms got 50% more ammo here in MWO (120 missiles in TT, 180 here). SRMs are unchanged. I could settle for giving Clanners our current ammo and buffing Inner Sphere ammo counts (IS Lurms could use a nice little buff anyways)...

[Bobzilla]

The only thing they can do to balance them really is add a ton of heat to em. Which will suck cause the heat is so messed.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bobzilla, on 14 April 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

The only thing they can do to balance them really is add a ton of heat to em. Which will suck cause the heat is so messed.

lolwut?

Umm, yeah, lots of other things that can be done. I listed 4, maybe actually think outside the box?

[SweetJackal]

One of the biggest concerns I have seen from the Devs is that without a minimum range Clan LRMS would be oversized SRM launchers at point blank range. Most of what Bishop has here I do agree with (not the ammo though)

I do believe that missile flight path could be used to prevent the above situation which is a concern to the developers. By having the missiles blossom out of the launchers in all directions for Clan LRMS then reroute themselves into a proper grouping as they move down range you can prevent the majority of the missiles from hitting a mech within what they want to be minimum range while still keeping true to their design.

To compare, IS LRMs are straight shooters: ||||


Clan LRM's having a blossom flight path would start like this: \\||//

[Goose]

… If "minimum range" was a function of lock-on time for all tracking weapons in the game, the same way a Gauss has a wind-up now, how would you feel?

Also: We asked Sam Lewis at the "Meet FASA" seminar, in Origins the year they rolled out TRO:'50, about that, and he made it clear it was a left hand-meet-right hand error.

FTFM

Edited by Goose, 14 April 2014 - 12:54 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Goose, on 14 April 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

Also: We asked Sam Lewis at the "Meet FASA" seminar, in Origins the year they rolled out TRO:'50, about that, and he made it clear it was a left hand-meet-right hand error.

Asked Sam about what, exactly? Kinda lost the context here, sorry if I am being thick.

[Haakon Magnusson]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

1) Clan LRMs cannot lock using other mechs targeting data. Hence, no Indirect or "Support" fire, which the Clans supposedly find cowardly anyhow. This lack of extra computers and such might help explain some of the weight discrepancy, too.

2) Have a much flatter firing arc, again, removing them from the realm of "Support" weapon, and making them a LoS Long Range Dueling Weapon.

Actually was thinking about same problems with Clan weapons and LRMs are one of the worst. Beat me to it, but two first points were which immidiately sprung into mind that would make sense. (Do agree on latter ones as well)
It would also be very much IC for Clanner point of view


Although I still can't shake tha idea that we should get some degree of RoE enforcement into the game.

For example mech targetting sticking to first target pilot engages (Until target runs away, dies or no fire for some time etc.)

In addition, no other clan mech targetting computer locks on an engaged fellow warriors target, merely displays tag that it is chosen target of XX (until it is lost as in previous)
Also allow target change if it engages you.

.. of course Clanners can then choose to ignore these and just fire untargetted, but atleast have their mech systems softly imply RoE they should be following.

Guess this is wishful thinking and sooner I realize most won't ever intend to follow their RoE, the less I'll be irritated in the end.

Edited by Haakon Magnusson, 14 April 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

SuckyJack, on 14 April 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

One of the biggest concerns I have seen from the Devs is that without a minimum range Clan LRMS would be oversized SRM launchers at point blank range. Most of what Bishop has here I do agree with (not the ammo though)

I do believe that missile flight path could be used to prevent the above situation which is a concern to the developers. By having the missiles blossom out of the launchers in all directions for Clan LRMS then reroute themselves into a proper grouping as they move down range you can prevent the majority of the missiles from hitting a mech within what they want to be minimum range while still keeping true to their design.

To compare, IS LRMs are straight shooters: ||||


Clan LRM's having a blossom flight path would start like this: \\||//

This really makes a lot of sense for minimum range, because with a system like IS LRMs at close range they can be fairly easy to dodge with more nimble 'Mechs even if there was no medium range. Casting a wide net inside the traditional IS LRM minimum range raises hit probability while reducing damage output. An acceptable trade off from a design standpoint.

[Goose]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

Asked Sam about what, exactly?

… Teh minimum range on Clan LRMs.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

Clan Warriors fight primarily through Honor Duels, and feel support weapons, Sniping and such to be cowardly and dishonorable (Though taking vastly superior Mechs against their opponents is somehow OK with their honor). Yet..that majority of their weapons are elegant, long range strike weapons. ER Large Lasers, Gauss, ER PPCs and LRMs, which allows them to effectively out-range their IS opponents (especially with the crutch of a targeting computer.... how dishonorable is that?)

Slight nit pick here, I know its not the purpose of your post

The fluff you're referring to was meant to conserve resources and reduce collateral damage. To accomplish the goal with minimal force, not to give the other side a fair fight.

As for your ideas, I don't like taking away indirect fire all together. I wouldn't mind seeing the arc greatly reduced though. High enough to get over other mechs and smaller obstructions.

However that would be tricky when firing on a target much higher than yourself, I'm not sure our current missiles check to make sure they've climbed high enough before they divebomb, they just happen to be so high its fine in most cases.

Another issue (although I wouldn't mind this one) is that a lower arc means faster time to target.

Another option I like is making them fire in a stream rather than all at once (as seen in mechwarrior 2) this would allow AMS more time to pick them off.

So how would Clan LRMs sound with a low arc, streamed, and 180 min. range sound?

Edited by Rouken, 14 April 2014 - 12:43 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Rouken, on 14 April 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

Slight nit pick here, I know its not the purpose of your post

The fluff you're referring to was meant to conserve resources and reduce collateral damage. To accomplish the goal with minimal force, not to give the other side a fair fight.

It also evolved into Zellbriggen, which was about "fighting honorably" hence the Clanners rage when IS warriors used combat tactics instead of dueling rules.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

It also evolved into Zellbriggen, which was about "fighting honorably" hence the Clanners rage when IS warriors used combat tactics instead of dueling rules.

Zellbriggen is a different facet of that topic. While it is ostensibly for the purpose of controlling collateral damage and conserving resources it seems to be much more about the honor that comes from it. Also Wolf uses Zellbriggen much more loosely and opportunistically than Smoke Jaguar.

Fluff is fun, but it gets hard to justify it for game purposes. After all, Ulric was killed by a bunch of hidden LRM boats and a small laser converted into a TAG unit.

[Bishop Steiner]

Rouken, on 14 April 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

Zellbriggen is a different facet of that topic. While it is ostensibly for the purpose of controlling collateral damage and conserving resources it seems to be much more about the honor that comes from it. Also Wolf uses Zellbriggen much more loosely and opportunistically than Smoke Jaguar.

Fluff is fun, but it gets hard to justify it for game purposes. After all, Ulric was killed by a bunch of hidden LRM boats and a small laser converted into a TAG unit.

I am aware of that. Doesn't negate the point it makes more sense for the actual clan ideology and gives a good balancing point. And there is a reason that since inception, even the Product Line Developers have had issues, because the Clans, Their Military Doctrine, Cultural Ideology and Technology largely made no sense when viewed together.

[Viges]

I like the idea to balance thing using roleplaying. Like "Hey man, you were not suppose to kill me from 900m you know?" - "Lolololololololo-lololololo....."

Yea, that always works, right? Especially in f2p games, yea.

Was the splatcat the first clan mech we saw?

[Bishop Steiner]

Viges, on 14 April 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

I like the idea to balance thing using roleplaying. Like "Hey man, you were not suppose to kill me from 900m you know?" - "Lolololololololo-lololololo....."

Yea, that always works, right? Especially in f2p games, yea.

Was the splatcat the first clan mech we saw?

hmmm...wow what a meaningful contribution?

[xCico]

IS mechs will not have a single chance vs clans due extreme clan weapons and im pretty sure clan mechs will be very expensive with cbills...

IMO there should be mode for clan mechs only and IS mechs only...

Edited by Almighty Cico, 14 April 2014 - 01:14 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Almighty Cico, on 14 April 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

IS mechs will not have a single chance vs clans due extreme clan weapons and im pretty sure clan mechs will be very expensive with cbills...

IMO there should be mode for clan mechs only and IS mechs only...

iI think that opens up other issues, but hey speaking of issues, can we discuss the one in the OP? K, thx!