156 replies to this topic

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Ghost Badger, on 18 April 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

I'm sorry, you missed my point. I don't care about the picture. Can you apply the experience to some of the conversations in this thread? Namely regarding game balance, or player skill vs. uncontrolled factors?

Nice game, btw.

Idk what you mean about that but I was just giving an example of a build that looks bad (to me) on paper but can perform really well. I also think the LPL is a lot better than people give credit for but it could use a better heat curve for multiples since it has such limited range.
On the subject of balance: I really hate lrms boating and the stagnant and boring cover hump they inflict upon the average PUG, dislike pop tards, don't really like lights damage vs survivability, hate FLD meta, dislike dual ac/20/gauss and similar builds, oh and hate artillery. I realize they have their place in the game but certain playstyles are polarizing in the fun had by players.

Lrms, artillery, and to a certain extent pop tarts and lesser extent ECM light snipers are not as fun to play against because they either work to kill you from afar and behind cover (lrms) and/or work to snipe out components via high alpha and pinpint damage, such that even one or two (un)lucky shots can cripple the survivability just about any XL using heavy or assault for the rest of the match. Meanwhile lasers a degree of damage spreading based on player skill I think lasers are the most balanced weapon and where other weapons should be balanced toward atm but if they rework the heat system to actually allow decent sustainable damage with lasers/energy only mechs that don't use hit and run tactics then there may be a place for the heavier FLD weapons but idk.

basically I want these occurrences to rarer:
https://onedrive.liv...nt=photo%2c.jpg
https://onedrive.liv...nt=photo%2c.jpg
and these occurrences to be more common:
https://onedrive.liv...nt=photo%2c.jpg
https://onedrive.liv...nt=photo%2c.jpg

Getting gibbed before you can contribute is not fun or healthy for the community. More damage spread makes each player able to contribute more and more likely feel like they actually did something in the match. When I gib out a weakened ilya side torso I don't feel happy about about an easy cheap kill, I feel bad for them because I know how frustrating it is when you have one critical area stripped in an otherwise full health brawler before you really are able to get into a decent fight, and then you can't afford to get into a brawl for the rest of the match.

Maybe they could have a "hardcore" mode or something that allows groups of any size and allows FLD ACs and faster lrms etc. and have separate balancing mechanics that favor requiring more significant teamwork to overcome than is typical in PUGS. That way more people can get what they want, since one way can't please everyone.

[El Bandito]

Ghost Badger, on 17 April 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

I see people complaining about ALL KINDS of things here on the forums. Nerf autocannons! Nerf tonnage! Nerf teamwork! Nerf ECM! ETC. They also complain about what isn't any good. Lasers suck! They nerfed AC2 and AC5, wtf!?!? Jagers get blown up too fast! ETC. ETC. Ad nauseum. I'm tired of it. This game isn't a bunch of arena matches...(channels Joseph Mallan) it's a futuristic WAR with no real basis in science. Last night I took out my Firebrand...my 6xML, 2xAC5 Firebrand. In my last match we started with a guy who disconnected. We had NO assaults. The other team out-tonned us by 115 tons. We had only 1 ECM cicada to their FOUR ECM mechs. We started on the FAR side of Alpine away from "The Hill" at I9. Half the people on these forums would be screaming about how unfair it is. Instead, me and my 2 guys bucked up and carried hard. Go Kell Hounds. So please, everyone, stop with the hyperbolic whining. It's tiresome.

So basically, PREMADES ARE OVERPOWERED? Hell, if I had a couple of clanmates with VOIP, I can do decent job myself.


Nerf groups!

Edited by El Bandito, 18 April 2014 - 07:36 AM.

[Viges]

YueFei, on 17 April 2014 - 11:02 PM, said:

You've flubbed the math a bit there. 10 DHS dissipates 20 heat over 10 seconds. That's 2 heat per second.

Viges, on 17 April 2014 - 08:48 PM, said:

2ppc+2ac5=22heat, with double dissipation and 10 (!) dhs (2*10*0.2=4) you can fire this s*** every 5-6 secs - almost on cooldown NONSTOP. With more dhs just every 3-4 sec - anything else will become obsolete.

2 hps - as dhs now. With double dissipation its 4hps. Please read posts more carefuly.

YueFei, on 17 April 2014 - 11:02 PM, said:

Unless, of course, reducing massive burst damage isn't the goal, in which case, carry on.

I hope you see now that high dissipation wont solve this problem. Even if you reduce heat threshold to 20 meta will be ppc+ballistics, reduce more - just ballistics boating. I think game will be very boring that way. And people will still find builds with max alpha and use it, because its the most effective way.

As I understand the only way is to remove the pinpoint damage: give ppc charge mechanics (smth different from gauss) and make acs deal damage over time - how it was proposed many times by many people.

[Viges]

Mcgral18, on 17 April 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

If JJs produced heat, you would shutdown while jumping, costing you quite a few seconds.

The biggest advantage would be energy weapons no longer being gimped. Sure, the dakka builds could fire more often, but so could energy. You could actually effectively use a boat for more than 2 alphas, or 10 seconds.

As I understand JJs produce heat already, but I dont really know how much. You can increase it sure, well people will be jumping with ac then or smth else. Or not jumping but still use ppc-ac combo. Pinpoint damage is the problem not heat.

[AlmightyAeng]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 18 April 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

On the subject of balance: I really hate lrms boating and the stagnant and boring cover hump they inflict upon the average PUG, dislike pop tards, don't really like lights damage vs survivability, hate FLD meta, dislike dual ac/20/gauss and similar builds, oh and hate artillery. I realize they have their place in the game but certain playstyles are polarizing in the fun had by players.

Wow...since that leaves...brawling...I'm kinda suprised you still play.

Quote

When I gib out a weakened ilya side torso I don't feel happy about about an easy cheap kill, I feel bad for them because I know how frustrating it is when you have one critical area stripped in an otherwise full health brawler before you really are able to get into a decent fight, and then you can't afford to get into a brawl for the rest of the match.

Why should you feel bad about reading their build correctly and targeting their XL engine? They CHOSE to take it?

If you're using an XL in your 'chainsaw' Ilya build for 3 UAC5's (like you showed in your picture) you aren't using a 'brawler' build. There's a reason why brawler builds use STD engines. In taking an XL you're trading that survivability for firepower, and should be adjusting tactics accordingly.

Thank you for your informative post and views on balance.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 18 April 2014 - 07:50 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Viges, on 18 April 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

As I understand JJs produce heat already, but I dont really know how much. You can increase it sure, well people will be jumping with ac then or smth else. Or not jumping but still use ppc-ac combo. Pinpoint damage is the problem not heat.

It just produces a flat rate, just like moving. It depends on the amount of JJs you have, but it will never go over that. Lets say you have the spider 5V, load 12 JJs and fire them. You jump to 20% heat (fictional number). If you fire your 2 Meds and go to 25% heat, then use your JJs, nothing happens. Your heat with JJs will never go above 20%.

My proposed change is making JJs do heat whenever they are used, proportional to the amount of time, or amount of jets used.

MWLL did this, and you could overheat with JJs when you were running hot.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Ghost Badger, on 18 April 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

Wow...since that leaves...brawling...I'm kinda suprised you still play.



Why should you feel bad about reading their build correctly and targeting their XL engine? They CHOSE to take it?

If you're using an XL in your 'chainsaw' Ilya build for 3 UAC5's (like you showed in your picture) you aren't using a 'brawler' build. There's a reason why brawler builds use STD engines. In taking an XL you're trading that survivability for firepower, and should be adjusting tactics accordingly.

Thank you for your informative post and views on balance.

Oh, I forgot to mention I hate JJ being so powerful in battle vs more of a terrain and positioning aid, such that JJ mechs are almost always better than non-JJ mechs. I primarily use chain fire on my UAC5 and only switch to alphaing when i am trying to burst down that last bit of health, and with the ilya's low-slung arms you can't really pop over hills to shoot without taking more damage than you dish out so I use it for hit and run tactics and brawling.

I enjoy my 2 PPC 350 xl dragon 1C which is all I have run on that variant since the stats reset, though I have found it to be less survivable now that i die to side torso coring out much much more often. I guess because of the hitbox adjustment, I have had and entire volley of lrms hit only a side torso and putting it into orange-red internals from like yellow-ish orange armor while leaving the arm and CT nearly untouched.

I think PPCs are fairly balanced by their heat and weakness to close range/brawling, but their synergy with ACs is an obvious problem. I could be for cutting the damage and fire rate in half as long as it isn't as much HPS with the nerfed front-load so can hold it's own in sustained fire better than current. I also like changing to like 60-70% damage with complementing splash damage but people seem convinced that it is too hard to implement or something.

I also found success in a banshee 3M using 3 ML and 4 LPL with a 400 xl. and a 5s stalker with 2 ams + 3 tons ammo (kinda of underwhelming considering i could still get hit by base turret what? lrm5s?) and 2 LPL 2 PPC. I have always liked my 4 PPC 3F but lately it runs a little to hot especially on maps like terra therma. and obviously the 2 (U)AC5 2 AC2 banshee 3E is pretty reliable. There are plenty of options to play outside of the ones i listed as not liking haha, just not that many "meta" ones i suppose.

Aslo, I'm glad you found my post interesting haha

Mcgral18, on 18 April 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

It just produces a flat rate, just like moving. It depends on the amount of JJs you have, but it will never go over that. Lets say you have the spider 5V, load 12 JJs and fire them. You jump to 20% heat (fictional number). If you fire your 2 Meds and go to 25% heat, then use your JJs, nothing happens. Your heat with JJs will never go above 20%.

I was not aware of this, that seems like a pretty big issue... JJ need to always add heat and an non-negligible amount at that.

[Artgathan]

Mcgral18, on 18 April 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

It just produces a flat rate, just like moving. It depends on the amount of JJs you have, but it will never go over that. Lets say you have the spider 5V, load 12 JJs and fire them. You jump to 20% heat (fictional number). If you fire your 2 Meds and go to 25% heat, then use your JJs, nothing happens. Your heat with JJs will never go above 20%.

My proposed change is making JJs do heat whenever they are used, proportional to the amount of time, or amount of jets used.

MWLL did this, and you could overheat with JJs when you were running hot.

When JJ's are being used they actually do generate heat about the threshold level - it's just so small that it only reduces your cooling rate (it won't cause you to actually generate heat). Even then the difference is pretty negligible - you'll only notice the change if you're looking for it (get your heat up to 90% then JJ to see how fast is decreases vs 90% + no JJ).

[YueFei]

Viges, on 18 April 2014 - 07:33 AM, said:

2 hps - as dhs now. With double dissipation its 4hps. Please read posts more carefuly.

It seems we are misunderstanding each other.

I assumed "high dissipation" meant having TRUE double heat sinks, not that we should double the dissipation of all heat sinks. Currently only the in-engine heatsinks are true doubles.

The common suggestion I have seen is to make a hard cap of 30 heat, and use true DHS (2.0 DHS), rather than the 1.4 external DHS we currently have.

Under this model, using a common build with 16 DHS, you could fire 2xPPC every 6 seconds and remain heat neutral, assuming you did not move and you were on a heat neutral map and you fired no other weapons. Firing 2xPPC as quickly as you can on cooldown every 4 seconds would shut you down on your 3rd salvo.

[Noesis]

Skill + Meta > Skill

Skill + Meta + Recon > Skill + Meta

[AlmightyAeng]

Noesis, on 18 April 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

Skill + Meta > Skill

Skill + Meta + Recon > Skill + Meta

Skill + Meta + Recon + Beer > EVERYTHING

[Nemesis Wolf]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

The problem I see with those ideas is that they expect to have all the killing ability and endurance as an Assault while piloting a Light. My skills in a Jenner are as bad as I was in an Atlas at the start of closed Beta. I don't complain that the Jenner needs a buff, I look in the mirror and tell myself, "You suck in Lights!" And go back to my Centurion, and Battlemaster.

And Rex It is a Futuristic WAR game. Thus it should make players feel kinda like they are in a war. With all the simulated Panic and Confusion that takes place in a war zone!

I couldn't have said this better myself. Admittedly I want to pilot lights, sadly I suck in them do the need to be nerfed, no, they seem to work how they should, I just suck. Same goes for Assaults, fo some reason I feel I just painted a big sign on me reading "Kill me first" as thats usually what happens if I get into an assault. In a Medium I do remarkably well, I started a Second account and managed to get that account a Griffin, I've gotten more Kills/Assists in that then I have in any other mech, including the mech I pilot on this account (A Cataphract). Though I don't have many Kills in the Cata, I do get a buttload of Assists every match... You're all welcome by the way.

I will say that ECM really should be restricted to lighter mechs though (Lights and Mediums) as C'mon PGI, The Heavies and Assaults shouldn't be sneaking around. I've died more times to an ECM equipped Atlas than I can count and as a former Battletech/MEchwarrior gamer I know for a fact that the original game rules stated they couldn't equip it due to EM interference from the energy output of their oversized engines and chassis, and yet you have given them ECM anyway. Please..Stop it. Stop taking the recon role away from the Mediums and Lights and let them do their jobs and leave the "Tanking" to the big boys.

[Viges]

YueFei, on 18 April 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

I assumed "high dissipation" meant having TRUE double heat sinks, not that we should double the dissipation of all heat sinks. Currently only the in-engine heatsinks are true doubles.

The only thing this will do is forcing people to use 1 ppc instead of 2 and as many acs as possible.

2xAc10+ppc 3d
3-4xAc5 jagers/phracts/bansh
etc

Ghost Badger, on 19 April 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

Skill + Meta + Recon + Beer > EVERYTHING

Beer > Skill + Meta + Recon + Logic

[Viges]

Btw I know some "funny" and easy way to balance ballistics (in parallel with heat discussion): allow them to use ammo only from the mech parts that they belong. Transiting ammo from legs to arms has no sense anyway.

[Jet Black Dog]

I'd like to add, "free to play" or not,
it's not going to be 'fair' - setting it in clan invasion makes all sense of a 'level playing field' a complete joke, anyway.
On the other hand, you have to expect people to want a level playing field.
WHile they then try to min max and exploit their way out of it.
Don't let people get to you. ?

Viges, on 20 April 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Btw I know some "funny" and easy way to balance ballistics (in parallel with heat discussion): allow them to use ammo only from the mech parts that they belong. Transiting ammo from legs to arms has no sense anyway.

YES THAT...or, as I said on my thread to ac's and dps,
simply make them battletech canon AUTOcannons, firing that damages over a time, like the pulse lasers.
hell, the pulse lasers sound& act more like an AC than the AC's.
It's a burst not a single-damage lump shell, fix that and Jango.
They already have a heat advantage since heat is still ten seconds based ( ?or was? is it still? ) and most firing is @3-4 seconds based.

Edited by Mercier, 20 April 2014 - 07:23 AM.

[Viges]

Mercier, on 20 April 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

I'd like to add, "free to play" or not,
it's not going to be 'fair' - setting it in clan invasion makes all sense of a 'level playing field' a complete joke, anyway.
On the other hand, you have to expect people to want a level playing field.
WHile they then try to min max and exploit their way out of it.
Don't let people get to you. ?

YES THAT...or, as I said on my thread to ac's and dps,
simply make them battletech canon AUTOcannons, firing that damages over a time, like the pulse lasers.
hell, the pulse lasers sound& act more like an AC than the AC's.
It's a burst not a single-damage lump shell, fix that and Jango.
They already have a heat advantage since heat is still ten seconds based ( ?or was? is it still? ) and most firing is @3-4 seconds based.

On Burst fire AC's

But I don't really understand the difficulties because we already have mgs that work that way and they're doing fine. Why is it harder for bigger ballistics is mystery for me...

[Mcgral18]

Viges, on 20 April 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

On Burst fire AC's

But I don't really understand the difficulties because we already have mgs that work that way and they're doing fine. Why is it harder for bigger ballistics is mystery for me...

Actually, MGs are heatless, ammo powered lasers. Same 2x max range, same hitscan method of applying damage. They just have a Cone of Fire added in.

But the 3-10 shot ACs would be pretty simply to implement. Change the sound effects and a few lines of the .XML so it fires multiple shots to deal the rated damage. Hit detection should be fine for the lower shot count, since they won't be striking simultaneously (the problem SRMs face).

Edit: I certainly wouldn't want them to be heavy lasers. That is something I'm against.

Edited by Mcgral18, 20 April 2014 - 09:05 AM.

[Crucifier]

Ghost Badger, on 17 April 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

I see people complaining about ALL KINDS of things here on the forums.

Nerf autocannons!

Nerf tonnage!

Nerf teamwork!

Nerf ECM! ETC.

They also complain about what isn't any good.

Lasers suck!

They nerfed AC2 and AC5, wtf!?!?

Jagers get blown up too fast! ETC. ETC. Ad nauseum.

I'm tired of it. This game isn't a bunch of arena matches...(channels Joseph Mallan) it's a futuristic WAR with no real basis in science.

Last night I took out my Firebrand...my 6xML, 2xAC5 Firebrand.

In my last match we started with a guy who disconnected. We had NO assaults. The other team out-tonned us by 115 tons. We had only 1 ECM cicada to their FOUR ECM mechs. We started on the FAR side of Alpine away from "The Hill" at I9.

Half the people on these forums would be screaming about how unfair it is. Instead, me and my 2 guys bucked up and carried hard. Go Kell Hounds.

So please, everyone, stop with the hyperbolic whining. It's tiresome.

You probably played against me, I have less that 40 games total, and a win/loss of .80, and still have to play trial mechs (I wasted my money on a hunchback and an xl engine, and cant afford anything else). I have been trying to win a thunderbolt this weekend, but have lost every match.

So before you whine about being a subpar player and how everything is balanced, consider that there are player who don't have a firebrand, and who are forced to play trial mechs, but still have to play against all thing you mentioned (I played in a match in the catapult and didn't get to fire a single weapon due to ecm).

Hope you feel like a big man, congrats on your win.

[Mcgral18]

Crucifier, on 20 April 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

You probably played against me, I have less that 40 games total, and a win/loss of .80, and still have to play trial mechs (I wasted my money on a hunchback and an xl engine, and cant afford anything else). I have been trying to win a thunderbolt this weekend, but have lost every match.

So before you whine about being a subpar player and how everything is balanced, consider that there are player who don't have a firebrand, and who are forced to play trial mechs, but still have to play against all thing you mentioned (I played in a match in the catapult and didn't get to fire a single weapon due to ecm).

Hope you feel like a big man, congrats on your win.

Use the Hunch or the Victor, or even the jenner. Avoid the Cat like the plague unless you get some spotters on TS. Those are all decent enough mechs.

[Aresye]

If skill were the ultimate factor, we wouldn't have so many people complaining about getting handed abysmal teammates. It doesn't matter how much you try to lead, or how sound your tactical plan is. Your teammates are either going to follow it, or they will completely ignore it (most often) and do things that get them killed instantly.

It doesn't matter how good of a player you are, or how good your group is. Hell, even if a premade group hypothetically ran all aimbots, it still wouldn't matter when 8 teammates die in a single file line and it ends up being 12v4.

Considering that bad teammates are just a nature of the draw, Bad Luck > Skill. Obviously there are exceptions, hence the, "Carry Harder," meme, but for the most part an individual player's skill has little impact on the outcome of a match.

When it comes to meta, it's always fluctuating (although the current PPC/AC/JJ meta has stayed consistent for quite some time).

Meta builds will change as balance changes, but one thing will always remain consistent. The current meta will benefit players, new and old.

To better clarify what I'm saying, this is basically how it works:

Skilled Player + Non-Meta = Low-Moderate Influence
Skilled Player + Meta = Moderate-High Influence

There's a reason that most competitive 12-mans run the meta like it's going out of style. From a win/loss perspective, there's simply no reason to not run with the current meta. A player running a non-meta going up against their equivalent running the meta is most likely going to lose, and when it comes to solo/small premade drops, a skilled player running the meta is going to benefit their team more than a skilled player in a non-meta build.

So while I do agree that a lot of people overly complain about many aspects of the game, having good luck when it comes to your team and running the meta both improve your chances of winning more than personal skill. Skill is just a small factor that compounds on existing balance and matchmaking issues.

Meta + Good Luck = Success
Meta + Bad Luck = 50/50
Non-Meta + Good Luck = 50/50
Non-Meta + Bad Luck = Failure

Edited by Aresye, 20 April 2014 - 04:00 PM.