127 replies to this topic

[kiriage]

Scurry, on 21 April 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

Repeatedly alpha-striking a hill.

Thanks Scurry..that one gave me a good laugh! In all fairness though..those hills do take some wearing down.

[Sephlock]

kiriage, on 21 April 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

Thanks Scurry..that one gave me a good laugh! In all fairness though..those hills do take some wearing down.

You have to show those hills who's boss.

[bar10jim]

Have you tried different game modes?

[Cion]

Only read the first page although usually I read the whole thread. (long day)
Please post your win/loss ratio. If it's as bad as it sounds, some dev should look at it and find out why.
Second thought: I did horrible at the beginning for a long time. I'm a Mechwarrior 2:mercs, Mechwarrior 3 and Mechwarrior 4:mercs campaign player. When this game came out I was like just as excited as you were. I played and played and sucked bad. My w/l ratio was like 0.6 (that's loosing a lot) with a worse k/d ratio. Months passed like that. I actually lost the enjoyment, life happened and I quit for months.
Then life got a bit better and I tried the game again. I got better. No, not the get better by "practice", but the "better" cause I finally understood that although this game is called Mechwarrior, you cannot play it like other Mechwarrior titles I played. It's a completely different play style.

Dunno if you have a similar thing like I did, but take a break, get some new air, and come back and you may find what's wrong. The game is fun, but different. When I got better I started winning like 5 games and loosing 4. My w/l was so low for those bad months that it did not matter if I won 5 games in a row or got like 6 kills, my stats would be unchanged (so I really did loose a lot back in the day)

Good luck bro, may you find what you need.

[ThatBum42]

Scurry, on 21 April 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

I can vouch for the fact that the player experience can differ greatly between new players and old players.

Seconded. I didn't start an alt account so I can't personally speak for the new player experience, but after ~700 games most of them are enjoyable at this point (some of them are exceptional).

So...I dunno what to say, OP. Such extraordinarily bad luck is very rare, even for the new user experience. I certainly don't recall getting stomped so much. Granted, there was a lot of stomping, but it was about even with giving/receiving. In my experience, there's less stomps and more close games as time wears on as well.

[Jon Gotham]

Daekar, on 21 April 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

This is one of the best arguments I've heard for single player games in a while. Makes me want to go play Final Fantasy X.

Aye the sad thing it's largely true:(
Sometimes, I'd love to interview people I have spectated just to try to understand exactly what kind of creature I just witnessed play:)
But OP, seriously we all have bad runs-it could just be that this particular one for you is a doozy or it might be you are focusing on the negative results more than any positive. If I had focused on this week especially, I'd have quit. I've had 4-5 weeks of winning a lot, I figure I'm due some losing.
It happens, it's life.


If you don't stick at something, you'll never get any better. Take some of these fine people up on their offers-no need to be stubborn take the helping hands offered to you and profit. Good luck.

[maniacos]

Koniving, on 21 April 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

Jherej, you have encountered one of two things.
Either you encountered Alpha lance (the larger premade group on the team), or quite potentially there's someone on the other side who took charge. It does not happen so much in higher elements of matchmaker, but in the earlier ones the players are usually very new and very cooperative.

This the best example I have on video (pugging commander), but I've had matches with even better outcomes from taking command.

This is really great, but in my whole time in MWO I saw commands only *once*.

I am totally not the stratetical leader guy, I work better of my position and try to do what my Mech was made for. In a LRM boat, I stand behind hills and rain missiles over targets, in my light laser, I try to dodge, spot, and pick the backs of enemy mechs or what else is possible.

I am happy following combat orders when they are given and my mech can actually do it (for instance I won't rush alone on an assault line with my light, but I could circle them and try to spend some distraction with my lasers), but the problem is, that hardly someone commands at all. Sometimes you get spot reports in chat but no one really ever uses the command options.

The whole point however is, that besides all the commanding problems and lack of team play, if the Matchmaker was even and fair, no matter of my own skills and the actual team, there should be only a very very tiny chance to lose 0, 1, 2-12 in a row of 10 or more games. The odds always should even out around 50% win/lose. Unless you are always in lances/team with the same people. But since I am totally random, the win/lose odds should be totally random and move around 50% at all times.

The problem is, that no one but the developer knows what the Matchmaker is really doing and I can imagine, that it is a hard thing to test. You would have to test the algorithm with mockups in all variants running a few thousand matches and see, if the odds spread equal (it's possible to run that without actually opening matches, just feet input into the algorithm and report the results, so called unit testing), because there are so many aspects to the algorithm. I don't know how well the devs did that but seeing other have the same problems or report a win ratio of more than 80%, the algorithm is much likely messed up.

Edited by Jherej, 22 April 2014 - 12:14 AM.

[CCC Dober]

Jherej, on 22 April 2014 - 12:11 AM, said:

...
The problem is, that no one but the developer knows what the Matchmaker is really doing and I can imagine, that it is a hard thing to test...

I doubt that even the devs know what's happening half of the time. Here is why:

random population
random play times
random pings
random disconnects
random hit registration
random maps
random Mechs
random loadouts
random pilot skills
random 'actual' skills
random modules
random game modes
random team play

In short: the whole system is a steaming pile of random that cannot be predicted. The only defense against that is to try and eliminate random elements and hope for a ping advantage. Which is why teaming up yields the best results (less random BS to worry about).

[wanderer]

Here's why. When you start, your ELO is dead center. This means the matchmaker finds you to be ideal fodder for sticking in teams...with people who are equally inexperienced, but have a high enough ELO to pad out the "scraps" after the matchmaker makes the one decent team it can usually generate.

You get stuck on Bad Team #402. And get stomped. And stomped. And stomped, until your ELO actually drops low enough. What's worse is if you're predicted to lose by the MM...your ELO rating doesn't go down until you're on a team the game predicts you'll win- and you lose. This leaves you in the same place and getting kicked....



...over and over again. That's why it's happening.

[Water Bear]

Creovex, on 21 April 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

@OP

I think you need to step back and forget about wins. This game will piss you off if you are new and pugging and you start to believe the game sucks because you lose every round. The view your should be looking at is the "other stats".

This. Do not get obsessed with stats. If you were having a good time otherwise, but get upset when you find out you lost, that's understandable. Most people need to win at least occasionally to remain satisfied. But you get this way, usually, after you've played the game for a while.

If you only have fun when you win, then you're going to have a tough road ahead of you. This game has a pretty steep learning curve, and you won't have the necessary skills to influence the outcome of a match much until you've played a good bit. It helps to enjoy playing and not just winning. I lost a lot at first but didn't really notice, since I love playing. Besides, my K/D and other performance numbers are crap, but I'm satisfied with my MWO experience.

This game is also prone to wipes. If a low ELO lance suicides itself doing something stupid, a 12v8 is quickly lost by the team with 8 -- usually as soon as the last member of the enemy team has looked up and seen the score.

[Will HellFire]

Believe it or not, it may be just bad luck.

Yes after a month. Even a year.

The ball DOES roll in to the black in the roulette for 63 times in a row.

It happens. Its just not very likelyand it doesnt happen very often, but it does happen - I myself have seen people lose a lot of money in a hilarious night at the casino when the ball rolled 30 times in to the black. Then 31. Then 40....

I wouldnt be surprised if a combination of ELO and bad luck threw you in to the losing team for a whole month in a row.

[Joseph Mallan]

Koniving, on 21 April 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

For once I get to post something short and quick.

Panicking is the fastest way to get everyone killed. See it all the time in games, in shows, movies, etc., but for some reason it never clicks with people. Maybe it's army training, maybe it's just that common sense isn't common. Whatever the case, don't panic.

Fight or flight an instinct, and requires lots of training to break... I don't see a lot of training going on.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 April 2014 - 06:49 AM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Onyxian, on 21 April 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

@ Rouken

My mech build shouldn't matter... That's making the assumption my teams losses are all my fault because of poor mech builds. Yeah, if they're bad, maybe that does cost a game here or there, but it can't explain the constant hammering. Teams with DC regularly beat me, and even a bad build is better than a DC, isn't it?
And I do have a group, but none of them were on when I was last night.

Well, I assume you came here for help and not to mope about a feel sorry. Your mech build and play style are things you have direct control over. Posting them will allow us to give advice and suggest alternatives.

The human mind is very good at playing tricks on itself. On nights where I'm losing I feel like I always lose. On nights where I win I feel unstoppable. My win/loss is about even but I rarely ever feel I win as often as I lose. Do your numbers agree with how you feel?

Now, I'm not trying to come down on you. But every post from you has a theme. You almost always seem to say "My team always loses, why do I always get put on the bad team." This is a terrible way to think. That is your mind trying to protect itself from feeling inferior. The problem with that is it stifles growth.

I do it too. And I'm sure most everyone here has thought the same thing. So what I did is created a mental trigger. Whenever I feel frustrated or start thinking about how my team let me down I use that feeling to tell me I need to do something. I take a deep breath and think about how I could have played better. Sometimes it is my team's fault but I almost always find at least one thing I could have improved upon.

Now, I'm happy to offer help as long as you have need of it. But don't fall into the trap of automatically blaming others to protect your pride.

[Wildstreak]

Scurry, on 21 April 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

I can vouch for the fact that the player experience can differ greatly between new players and old players.

This is my main account. A decent, slightly positive win rate, people generally know what they're doing, usually decent games.

And I started an alt account fairly recently. And my goodness - the things I see when I spectate - Battlemasters with nothing but 2 LRM20s, a Catapult with a small laser and nothing else, 3ERPPCs on what had to be standard heatsinks......and that's just the loadout.

And the behaviour? Bumping into an enemy Mech at 200m and standing still. Repeatedly alpha-striking a hill. Firing 2 PPCs, an AC20 and an SRM6 at 800m. Ignoring a Victor with his back to the player and hitting a weaponless Blackjack instead. Charging across the map in an Atlas DDC and wasting ammo on a DC with Ultra-ACs at 900m. Being unable to maintain an LRM lock on a Jagermech at 600m.

There is a huge, huge discrepancy between the level of players you are teamed with as an experienced player, and as a new player.

Interesting, I may even start a thread because of this story.

[Daggett]

Onyxian, on 21 April 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

I want to know, and no one can answer this, is why the red team is *always* ALWAYS perfectly coordinated while my team never is?
.
.
.
Every. Single. Game.

This really old image came to my mind reading your post:



You are not the only one with that perception and MWO is not the only game. This applies to ALL competitive games out there

I guess it's a mix of bad luck and steep learning curve which requires more than a month of playing to really get a hang of it.

But you can be absolutely sure that PGI will not manipulate the matchmaker in a way that makes you loose more often.
It would be totally counterproductive for them to frustrate new/less skilled players by denying them victories on a regular base because without motivated new blood every MMO will die sooner or later.

Edited by Daggett, 22 April 2014 - 09:09 AM.

[maniacos]

Will HellFire, on 22 April 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

Believe it or not, it may be just bad luck.

Yes after a month. Even a year.

The ball DOES roll in to the black in the roulette for 63 times in a row.

It happens. Its just not very likelyand it doesnt happen very often, but it does happen - I myself have seen people lose a lot of money in a hilarious night at the casino when the ball rolled 30 times in to the black. Then 31. Then 40....

Thats what I thought too, but then more people started to complain about their win ratio, it seems not to be so random anymore.

[Jon Gotham]

Jherej, on 22 April 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

Thats what I thought too, but then more people started to complain about their win ratio, it seems not to be so random anymore.

It could also be two factors, and before I continue I'm NOT directing this directly at you, ok?
#1 People tend to think they are better than they are. I do it, you do it-we all do it. When you lose because of this tendency people tend to look outside of themselves. It could quite easily be true however but just as likely not.

#2 People usually tend to only remember negative experiences. They remember those 5 losses but forget that epic game they has 2 days ago.

[IshanDeston]

OriginalTibs, on 21 April 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

I'd say for a pilot's first 20 matches they should stay at the bottom of the ELO list. For the 21st match and thereafter compile their standing and drop them accordingly.

That would be very unfair. There are people that have been playing Mechwarrior games for 25 years (gosh that makes me feel old), throwing us into 20 matches with newbies is extremely unfair. And even if you disregard the MW Series veterans.. there are still MWO veterans that might just start a new account for whatever reason. Locking them in a game with complete newbies and watch them wreck face... that wouldn't be a fun experience for the people that are actually newbies.

[Alaskan Nobody]

wanderer, on 22 April 2014 - 03:41 AM, said:

Here's why. When you start, your ELO is dead center.

Actually, it isn't.

When you start (your trial period) you are several hundred Elo points below center - and they track (but do not apply) those changes during the trial period.
After the trial period you are then modified - and while you are near center, you are far more likely to still be below center.
Not dead center.

[Koniving]

Jherej, on 22 April 2014 - 12:11 AM, said:

The problem is, that no one but the developer knows what the Matchmaker is really doing and I can imagine, that it is a hard thing to test. You would have to test the algorithm with mockups in all variants running a few thousand matches and see, if the odds spread equal (it's possible to run that without actually opening matches, just feet input into the algorithm and report the results, so called unit testing), because there are so many aspects to the algorithm. I don't know how well the devs did that but seeing other have the same problems or report a win ratio of more than 80%, the algorithm is much likely messed up.

Unfortunately this is what the last two years have essentially been. The upcoming 3/3/3/3 system is supposed to assist in removing more random elements. To me, this kills the tactics of the game even further. For matchmaker, it makes balancing considerably easier.

The sad nature of the chosen system, ELO, requires a mixture of skill sets to 'judge' the player's quality. It quite literally sets up a fight and makes predictions. If Jherej engages Player A, then Jherej should win. If it's true, your points go up slightly, if you lost against that player your ELO score drops significantly and the game does some experiments to reevaluate. But if Jherei engages Player B then Jherej should lose. If it's true the score only adjusts slightly. If it's false, your score sky rockets and the game begins throwing you curve balls.

Either way it's kind of screwy like that. One nice thing is that the game separates this system for each weight class. The reason the game wants you to play 25 matches is to try and get an understanding of your skill set. However, that's got to be 25 matches with just a medium or just a heavy, etc to actually begin to gauge where you might belong to actually put you into fair matches.

Now, far as commanding.. Kind of an issue is that the more experienced players don't believe in commanding because "nobody listens" or the very act of trying to distribute commands is something that will get players killed because MWO is getting faster and faster paced. The command system in the original closed beta was this way because combat was slower paced, a Hunchback might survive a 3 on 1 beating for almost a minute and so a commanding unit - usually an Atlas - would have all the time in the world to command. Now newer players either don't know how to command, or no one trusts them to know what they are doing. Obviously this leads to a paradigm of issues.

If you want, add me. If we group up together the enemies might be a little higher in experience for you but at the same time it'll reduce the player experience that I have to face and so the two of us working together could get pretty far.

Til then, on the 29th you should experience considerably fairer matches.