126 replies to this topic

[Graugger]

They bring back collisions and every light pilot on the planet will complain... assuming they haven't already.

[PhoenixFire55]

Can't even imagine all the whine from the so called light "pilots" who facehug all the time. But ... I'm all for the knockdown, and not only mechs with mechs, but mechs with buildings and terrain as well. If your Raven runs full speed into a wall, I expect it to be knocked on its butt and take some damage as well. That'll separate the real pilots from the bandwagon broken hitbox abusers.

[Windsaw]

Graugger, on 21 April 2014 - 11:54 PM, said:

They bring back collisions and every light pilot on the planet will complain... assuming they haven't already.

I am a light pilot and IMO I have been one of those who was hurt most by the removal of knockdowns.

Back then I used well timed deliberate knockdowns to take out Jenners in my Commando. Had knockdowns still been in there, the ECM-Streak-Ravens would never have gotten so overpowered like they were. As a Commando I would still have a disadvantage, but I could have defended myself.

Besides that, using full speed lights could knock down heavier opponenets when needed.

Although I suspect that that many who want knockdowns back just want that only light mechs will be able to be knocked down...

[ArmandTulsen]

Knockdown is something that desperately needs to come back.

The current system (lack of knockdown) gives lights carte blanche to recklessly and brazenly throw themselves in the fray and then weasel their way out. With knockdowns back in, they will crap their pants at the thought of leaping before (and after) looking into a bunch of mechs.

Plus, lights won't be playing as offensively trying to hunt down slow mechs by rear coring them. They will play more cautiously and stick to their role of scouting, fending off against other lights, and participating in the objectives where needed.

[Windsaw]

ArmandTulsen, on 22 April 2014 - 01:01 AM, said:

The current system (lack of knockdown) gives lights carte blanche to recklessly and brazenly throw themselves in the fray and then weasel their way out.

Let me guess: You are not primarily a light pilot, correct?

ArmandTulsen, on 22 April 2014 - 01:01 AM, said:

With knockdowns back in, they will crap their pants at the thought of leaping before (and after) looking into a bunch of mechs. Plus, lights won't be playing as offensively trying to hunt down slow mechs by rear coring them.

This is funny: When knockdowns were removed, this is something that didn't change at all, at least in my experience.
While your are doing that (picking assaults apart that are separated) you rarely ran into any danger of being knocked down. With knockdowns back in you wouldn't notice much difference here.
What DID change were reckless scouting/distraction runs into the enemy midst and avoiding being hit by constantly moving. You needed much more awareness where everybody is. Which is kind of ironic since getting this awareness is what scouting originally was intended for. Which means the scouting role would potentially be more hurt by knockdowns than stricking or the circle of death.

ArmandTulsen, on 22 April 2014 - 01:01 AM, said:

They will play more cautiously and stick to their role of scouting, fending off against other lights, and participating in the objectives where needed.

What "role of scouting"? What "other objectives"?
There is barely anything like this in this game. At least not enough to warrant more than one slot in each game.
Besides: It is hardly rewarded.

[Hawks]

Foxfire, on 21 April 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

And none of the other MW games had melee. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be attempted.

No, but it does mean that it's absurd to complain about the lack of melee as if it's some kind of affront to the natural order of things.

Anyway knockdown was attempted. It made the experience abysmal. It was removed.

[Windsaw]

Hawks, on 22 April 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

Anyway knockdown was attempted. It made the experience abysmal. It was removed.

Says who?
As I see it, the game was never as fun as it was back when it was still in.
Sure, it had a couple of problems, but what feature didn't? Problems should be fixed, not the complete feature removed!

(and I say this even though I think the total removal of ECM would be the best thing that could happen to the game. But I still say it should be fixed and not removed)

[Hawks]

Windsaw, on 22 April 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:

Says who?
As I see it, the game was never as fun as it was back when it was still in.
Sure, it had a couple of problems, but what feature didn't? Problems should be fixed, not the complete feature removed!

(and I say this even though I think the total removal of ECM would be the best thing that could happen to the game. But I still say it should be fixed and not removed)

Says anyone who enjoys playing video games rather than watching jittery animations of mechs flailing about on the floor like copulating transformers whilst having control stripped from the player for about ten seconds.

[Ultimax]

xMEPHISTOx, on 21 April 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

Your account was created in March of 2014, how could you possibly know what the cause for collisions removal was, as it was waaaaay back in CB>?
Unless ofc your posting on an alternate account in which case my apology is extended, however much I doubt this being the case.

I also know who Julius Caesar was, what the names of Columbus' ships were and when the Wright brothers took flight - yet all these things happened before I was born.

I learned all of that through books, but now you can find most things on the internet.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 22 April 2014 - 06:27 AM.

[Windsaw]

Hawks, on 22 April 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

Says anyone who enjoys playing video games rather than watching jittery animations of mechs flailing about on the floor like copulating transformers whilst having control stripped from the player for about ten seconds.

That's funny.
Avoiding mess-ups through skill is for me the definition of "playing a video game".
Take that away and it becomes less of a video game.

If I understand your correctly, you also want overheat shutdowns removed. They also have your control stripped from you.
Oh, and if you die, you also lose control. According to your definition of a video game it would be best to remove all opponents.

Edited by Windsaw, 22 April 2014 - 05:52 AM.

[Bobzilla]

They should put it back in.

Refine the animation if need be and put in place a mechanic that does not allow a mech to be constantly helpless (can't be knocked down for 5 seconds after getting up maybe). This timmer is somewhat silly, but no where near as silly as causing a player to not be able to do anything constantly.

It would cause problems for a lot of people, but they would adjust and get used to it.

[Hawks]

Windsaw, on 22 April 2014 - 05:50 AM, said:

That's funny.
Avoiding mess-ups through skill is for me the definition of "playing a video game".
Take that away and it becomes less of a video game.

If I understand your correctly, you also want overheat shutdowns removed. They also have your control stripped from you.
Oh, and if you die, you also lose control. According to your definition of a video game it would be best to remove all opponents.

Reducto ad absurdum, nice

[DemonRaziel]

Corwin Vickers, on 21 April 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

All you knock down proponents need to be honest. Just say "I'm an assault pilot that likes to put 200 class engines in my mechs and I can't aim for shit so light mechs kill me all the time so please give me an I win button because I don't want collisions to be based on physics or the table top game rules, I just want light mechs to instantly explode when I look at them because again I am horrible at this game and believe that light mechs are more powerful than assault mechs when it is clear to anyone who actually has any skill that the opposite is true."

Sadly I believe this is the main reasoning behind cheering for the knockdowns.

So many players are stating this will help "identify and remove the crappy light pilots", while in fact they're hoping this will add another advantage to the heavier 'Mechs.

I would welcome the Implementing a well fleshed out mechanic that is not suffering from technical, nor balancing issues, be it collisions, knockdowns, melee combat or whatnot. But we are currently far from the point where knockdowns would work as intended in the game.

Windsaw, on 22 April 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

Had knockdowns still been in there, the ECM-Streak-Ravens would never have gotten so overpowered like they were.

It would only mask the actual issue of ECM and SSRM brokenness behind another (broken) feature, that would blanketly screw over all the Lights and we would never see any balancing done on the actually broken items.

Edited by DemonRaziel, 22 April 2014 - 11:06 AM.

[Screech]

There is no need for some immunity timer on knockdowns. They just need to up the damage on collisions. Turn it into a weapon of last choice which it should be. Making collisions potentially deadly would fix many of the exploitable issues with knockdowns.

I am not sure why some people think that they removed collisions to help out lights though. If you can't hit a light with a laser I doubt you can hit them with your mech. At least that was my experience during CB.

Edited by Screech, 22 April 2014 - 11:34 AM.

[Graugger]

It wasn't so much an issue of a heavy running into a light mech but a light mech running into a heavy mech and merely passing through them to get out of the heavy mech's firing arc.

I mean why can a Jenner run right into the front of an atlas and just pass through it to get out of that atlas's AC/20 fire?

Edited by Graugger, 22 April 2014 - 11:42 AM.

[Hans Von Lohman]

From what I saw with beta videos people have posted collisions were pretty silly, and easily abused by griefers.

I'm not advocating they come back any time soon on that alone.

[Prezimonto]

Foxfire, on 21 April 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

There should be no arbitrary knockdown timer.. but knockdown should be damaging for both mechs.. dependent upon the speeds of the mechs and the masses, of course. A mech running at 150 kph running into a mech at Zero should be a bad day for both mechs.

Or worse a couple of mechs running head first at each other at 150kph or better.

On the first page of the thread I suggested that a real physics based damage model would help a LOT. 100 tons moving at 50kph is about equal to 50 ton mech rolling at 100kph is about equal to a 35 ton mech moving at 143 kph, about equal to a 20 ton mech moving at 250 kph.

So a true assault still has to worry about equal damage from a full speed 35 ton mech, but in this game a 20 ton mech isn't going to build up enough steam to equal the force of a full speed assault.

The thing is, if damage is proportional to force of impact, light mechs won't want to go bowling for enemies and heavy/assault mechs won't often be able to catch anything smaller than themselves. It's actually the middle weight mechs that become more dangerous as they'll be able to go fast enough to hit like a truck, and survive a hit, if it means disabling a larger mech.

I would argue that collisions, with a full physics model and knockdown only help medium mechs be more viable. A good medium pilot will be able to pick the engagement, has the offensive capacity and manuverability to keep a light away from them, and is fast enough with enough mass to actually pose a threat to large mechs.

[Armored Yokai]

i know knockdown has it's ups and downs but it would be best for the community

[CDLord HHGD]

On one hand, I am all for this, and on the other I am totally against.

A recent tactic has been to bull rush your opponent into a wall so they cannot escape and maneuver and pound away until someone dies.

As a counter, I really want to see melee added into the game.

[Tynan]

As a pilot who's only any good in lights, I'm completely for this. Just make sure it damages everyone involved.

Also, the all-or-nothing knockdown was clunky. I'd prefer to see the outcome more graduated...light shake -> heavy shake -> stagger -> fall or something along those lines, depending on speed / size of the mechs involved in the crash.