51 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

ACH75, on 22 April 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

You can have your speed! ...but don't stay out of reach with twin long range weapons... come closer

Assaults are already too fast? lol... everything under 65Kph without JJ is pure crap in maneuvrability...

Yes...assaults are pretty darn fast. A low engine atlas, then you're lumbering, but for the most part they are very reactive.

Then again...I pilot an XL400 Banshee for fun. With pulse lasers....It's very amusing.

[DONTOR]

ACH75, on 22 April 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

I think that engine's weight scaling has to be adjusted a bit...

Many lights mech can pair long range weapons while still equipping the bigger XL engine they support and it's not fair!

150Kph + tiny shape + twin long range weapons + JJ + ecm + lag shield + twin strike modules seems to me very OP cause they have all the advantages the game can offer without sacrificing
almost nothing...

#1 NO

#2 The only mech with ECM and JJs is the spider and I rarely see it with 2 ERLL (though it is possible) its not really a problem.

#3 What they sacrifice is the ability to fight off other lights. Any properly equipped light should be able to wreck those ranged lights with ease.

[Durant Carlyle]

Drake Grayson, on 22 April 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

Another point to lights and engines is, that a light like the jenner can mount an 300 XL. The standart version STD 300 is stock engine in an atlas. So an Atlas = 100 t and a jenner = 35 t can use the same engine. For me that is like a VW Käfer use a Truck engine. I think they can review this a little.

They've had almost 30 years to review this. Not going to happen now. Even in tabletop, if you can spare the weight and six extra critical slots, you can shoehorn a big engine into a light.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 22 April 2014 - 09:05 AM.

[Ultimax]

flipover, on 22 April 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

I beg to differ:


Not that I'm saying the OP is right, but someone who knows how to use a light with snipping weaponry can and will be a tough opponent to destroy and he/she might very well destroy half of your team (Mind you the picture's example was in a small map).
Btw without JJ, the RVN can do those 150kph.

Edit - I do support the idea of not letting a small 'mech equip too heavy or large weapons...

Seen plenty of that.

In truth it's not the ER LLAS on their own, or the speed, or being hard to hit - the ECM is the real troublemaker in that set up.

I don't know how many matches I've had pulling my hair out telling PUGs to stop chasing the ECM sniper to watch them all get picked apart one by one.


My opinion is that it's in the game, so use it and use it well.

It's frustrating as hell for me when for no reason I can tell I'm the assault in that sniper's crosshairs from the very start of the match (maybe its my paintjob ) - but I'm sure it's equally as frustrating for that light when they stand still for a second or two and didn't realize I was waiting with 2x PPCs and an AC 20.


Lagshield seems to be markedly improved since the recent patch, nearly invincible spiders don't seem so invincible anymore.

[FlipOver]

FupDup, on 22 April 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

Underlined/bolded for emphasis.

Having a good match with something doesn't make that something overpowered or imbalanced. Otherwise, my Streaktaro would be a destroyer of worlds and a metabeast because it's broken 1000 damage on more than a few occasions. Maybe you're just good, and/or maybe the enemy team is babies. Or maybe a bit of both. But, there's nothing morally wrong about getting a high score unless you were able to achieve that high score substantially easier with that loadout than any other loadout you have available.



That doesn't fulfill the OP's conditions, though.

Althought I got tired of running the RVN with 2ERLL, that was just a quick example, could very well get other ones for over 1100 dmg (using 4 module slots for arti and air strike and other ones).
All in all, if you know what to do and how to do it, using a light with such big weapons like ERLLs can really be a problem for the enemy team.

Again, you are right when saying the OP is wrong, but believe me, something should be done to prevent things like 2ERLLs (10 Tons) on a 'mech with less than 40 Ts...

[Tombstoner]

Durant Carlyle, on 22 April 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

And that's the way assaults are SUPPOSED to be.

I will presume that your referring to slow and lacks maneuverability. not the time to kill... personally survivability of assaults is severely lacking since speed and maneuverability doesn't scale well with tonnage.

One assaults cant lead a charge against 2 mechs let alone. they can only charge a single mech of lesser tonnage. The assault designation is an oxymoron due to PGI's implementation of TT and lack of role warfare. light mechs are OP

[FupDup]

flipover, on 22 April 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Althought I got tired of running the RVN with 2ERLL, that was just a quick example, could very well get other ones for over 1100 dmg (using 4 module slots for arti and air strike and other ones).
All in all, if you know what to do and how to do it, using a light with such big weapons like ERLLs can really be a problem for the enemy team.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Experienced pilots getting good scores is perfectly fine and normal.

flipover, on 22 April 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Again, you are right when saying the OP is wrong, but believe me, something should be done to prevent things like 2ERLLs (10 Tons) on a 'mech with less than 40 Ts...

There have been lights equipped with heavy weapons for a long time in Battletech, this game simply allows all of them to do it rather than just a few. The most extreme example is a 35 ton Hollander carrying a 15 ton Gauss Rifle at its only weapon.

[Der_Goetz]

Egomane, on 22 April 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

Changing the reactor weights around, will break canon loadouts.

That said, I added tags to the thread.

Fact is that the Stock engines of light are a lot lower that what you can put in the mech.
For the Jenner it is equiped with an 245 Std and you can put an 300 in it or Raven 3L Stock 210 XL you can put an 295 in it. So there is nothing canon with the mechs on the battlefield.

[ACH75]

Mcgral18, on 22 April 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Yes...assaults are pretty darn fast. A low engine atlas, then you're lumbering, but for the most part they are very reactive.

Then again...I pilot an XL400 Banshee for fun. With pulse lasers....It's very amusing.

I Pilot BNC and ATLAS too... Your BNC-3E with XL400 is very good in speed but i prefer XL375 cause i like to have AMS, BAP, 2PPC and 2LPL and don't like unsustainable HEAT builds...

For ATLAS the XL400 is the perfect one for maneuvrability and speed but i can't use it anymore cause the metagame have ruined any survivability chance...

Edited by ACH75, 22 April 2014 - 09:29 AM.

[Durant Carlyle]

Tombstoner, on 22 April 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

I will presume that your referring to slow and lacks maneuverability.

I directly quoted what I was referring to. There shouldn't be any confusion.

Tombstoner, on 22 April 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

light mechs are OP

...which explains all of the lights I see in matches with less than 100 points of damage, yes? Wow ... you're right, they're OP.

Lights are only really effective in the hands of a superior pilot. When the current meta can cripple you in one shot and kill you in two, you have to be good to survive. The learning curve of lights is much worse than that of assaults.

I would estimate that I have 4,500 to 5,000 drops in lights since I started playing in August 2012. I have good matches (900+ damage in a Spider armed with two Medium Pulse Lasers) and bad matches (<10 damage).

You guys are all acting like lights are boogie men. There aren't that many of us, compared to the number of heavier 'Mechs. Those of us who stick with lights tend to get very good, very quickly.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

If you think light mechs with long range weapons are OP have you tried hunting them in a more traditional light (medium lasers and streaks)?

I'm just thinking we should look at what we can do to counter "OP" tactics before we start calling for nerfs.

Edited by Rouken, 22 April 2014 - 09:38 AM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Engine weights not only should not change, but will not and cannot change. Doing so would break stock builds, and would violate the underlying rules of the setting and the system.

Even aside from that, though, there is nothing broken about the current engine system, unless it's tying maneuverability to engine rating. I'd much prefer that maneuverability be a variant-specific thing, and that engines relate to throttle alone. This would allow for far more detailed differentiation among variants, as quirks would become defining aspects of a variant's performance, instead of being modifiers to whatever base state your particular build's engine rating provides.

[Khobai]

Quote

Even aside from that, though, there is nothing broken about the current engine system

Tell that to the commando/locust who both get screwed because they cant take 250 engines. The one change id like to see is to allow ALL engines below 250 to still have 10 internal heatsinks. That way the locust and commando dont get screwed out of crit slots for not being able to take 250 engines. Its a deviation from tabletop but I think we all agree commandos/locusts need all the help they can get.

Quote

Lights with 2 ERLL are annoying for sure, but hardly gamebreaking or overpowered in any way/shape/form.

ERLLs definitely need a range reduction. All these long range weapons are whats killed brawling. ERLLs need their range reduced to ~600m. And Autocannons need to come down to x2 max range. ERPPCs also need their max range reduced to ~700m as well as their heat (13.5 heat would be good I think). SRMs need fixin' too. The game is just not as fun as it used to be without brawling.

Edited by Khobai, 22 April 2014 - 09:54 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 22 April 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

ERLL definitely need a range reduction.

All these long range weapons are what killed brawling off. Autocannons need to come down to x2 max range. And ERLLs need their range reduced to like 550m-600m. ERPPC needs its max range reduced too as well as its heat.

If you reduce the range too much on either ER weapon, they become basically downgrades to their non-ER counterparts. And if you try to reduce their heat to compensate, then they become direct upgrades to their non-ER counterparts.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Khobai, on 22 April 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

ERLL definitely need a range reduction.

All these long range weapons are what killed brawling off. Autocannons need to come down to x2 max range. And ERLLs need their range reduced to like 550m-600m. ERPPC needs its max range reduced too as well as its heat.

Ranges in Battletech have always been absurdly short. I hardly think that the ERLL and ERPPC are problems. Their heat per damage is high enough that only certain specialized builds can really handle them, and they're not particularly high dps options. Plus only a little bit of effort is generally required to get close enough to render their extra range a moot point.

ACs being generally reduced to 2x max instead of 3x would be worth trying (I won't be using the AC2 ever unless this happens now that it's max got cut so severely; the AC5 is now superior in all circumstances).

What most needs to happen, though, is a rate of fire rework that slows down the pace of combat and leaves pulse lasers and standard srms with a clear RoF advantage. Make the long range guns fire more slowly and the brawler weapons fire more quickly, and you'll see brawlers start winning in their own specialized range bracket, whereas currently most long-range builds do just as well as dedicated brawlers up-close. The pending SRM fixes should help a lot with that, of course, but even so brawling could use a bit of an edge in knife-fighting range when it comes to damage output over time.

[Rofl]

Khobai, on 22 April 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

The only change id like to see to engines is to allow ALL engines below 250 to have 10 internal heatsinks. That way the locust and commando dont get screwed for not being able to take 250 engines. Its a deviation from tabletop but I think we all agree commandos/locusts need all the help they can get.



ERLLs definitely need a range reduction. All these long range weapons are whats killed brawling. ERLLs need their range reduced to ~600m. And Autocannons need to come down to x2 max range. ERPPCs also need their max range reduced to ~700m as well as their heat (13.5 heat would be good I think). SRMs need fixin' too. The game is just not as fun as it used to be without brawling.

No. There needs to be different ranged weapons for different kinds of engagements. I can understand the AC2 nerf (2k range, even if piddly damage, hurts), but some weapons are just meant to reach out and touch you. ERLL, ERPPC, AC2, Gauss, and LRM to name just a few should be able to be used effectively beyond 700m.

Brawling is great, don't get me wrong, and it's a vital part of the game. But just because it's awesome and important doesn't mean other parts aren't awesome and important. It's supremely gratifying to snipe the head off a mech with dual gauss at 700+ meters.

[Durant Carlyle]

The only thing that needs reduced is the extra range every weapon gets. All weapons should act like missiles do -- at their max range, they do full damage. One meter past that range, they do zero damage. And by "max" range, I mean BattleTech range.

A weapon's range should be its range, period. Not 2x, or 3x.

There. Immediate improvement in the game.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 22 April 2014 - 09:58 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

No. There needs to be different ranged weapons for different kinds of engagements.

You are contradicting yourself. You claim we need different kinds of engagements. Right now the only kind of engagement we have is long range. The game is decided at long range.

The way to bring different kinds of engagements back to the game is to strengthen brawlers. Both long range and brawling should have a place in the game. And currently they do not.

The two options for strengthening brawling are to increase damage on brawling weapons or decrease range on long range weapons. Since increasing damage on brawling weapons lowers the already pathetic time to kill, thats obviously not a good option. So the best option is to decrease the range of long range weapons.

We dont want to overdo it on strengthening brawlers though. Last thing we need is splatcat 2.0.

Quote

A weapon's range should be its range, period. Not 2x, or 3x.

Then light mechs would be utterly impossible to kill because they could run out of your weapons range so easily. The reason why weapons are x2 range now is because of the absurd speed light mechs run at. I see nothing wrong with x2 but x3 is overkill.

Quote

If you reduce the range too much on either ER weapon, they become basically downgrades to their non-ER counterparts. And if you try to reduce their heat to compensate, then they become direct upgrades to their non-ER counterparts.

I think its pretty clear the ERLL is preferred over the LL at this point. The ERLL gets too much of a range advantage not to use it.

Edited by Khobai, 22 April 2014 - 10:05 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

FupDup, on 22 April 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

Lights with 2 ERLL are annoying for sure, but hardly gamebreaking or overpowered in any way/shape/form. "Proper" lights built around MLas (with maybe SSRMs thrown in) munch them for breakfast and they die easy enough if you can get close to them. Otherwise, wear them down from a distance and try to make your alpha strikes count.

Oh, and by the way, no light in the game can mount 2 ERLL at 150 kph, with ECM, with JJs. The only light with ECM + jets is the Spider 5D, and the fastest I can make it go in Smurfys with 2 ERLL is 130 kph. And that isn't counting the fact that the XL220 engine doesn't even have enough sinks to be legal to drop, meaning you'd have to downgrade the engine even further.

It still doesn't change the fact they are superior to mediums in every way.

Edited by lockwoodx, 22 April 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[FupDup]

lockwoodx, on 22 April 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

Spoken like a true meta-abuser.

Lights haven't been the meta in a loooong time, and when they were it was 3 ML + 2 SSRM2 ECM Ravens during the lagshield days.

Today, though? Not really. The meta now is heavies and assaults using front loaded alpha strikes, staying exposed just long enough to hit you but not long enough for you to get a good bead on them (at least, that's how the experienced ones try to play).

lockwoodx, on 22 April 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

It still doesn't change the fact they are superior to mediums in every way.

Bro, do you even Shadow Hawk? (Or Griffin, for that matter). The only mediums inferior to 2 ERLL lights are the bad mediums like the Trebuchet and Cicada.

Edited by FupDup, 22 April 2014 - 10:04 AM.