536 replies to this topic

[Nyte Kitsune]

Daekar, on 23 April 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

I have to say that anybody having trouble with stomps should try Conquest. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a team (mine or someone else's) almost completely stomp through the match and still lose on caps. I haven't played anything but Conquest in months, and if they took it out I would quit that day, because it is the only mode in which tactical objectives are even a possible element. Yes, you still have deathballs sometimes, but if the other team plays their cards right, especially on larger maps, they actually lose! I just wish they would move the cap points in Alpine further apart - most of the map is unused because they're so damn close together. Never understood why they changed them.

Conquest is my favorite, and I was a victim of exactly what you mentioned here. My Team though doing an excellent job killing the other team, failed to bother with Caps. Their last 3 Mechs managed to make a circuit of the field securing 3 points and stood on the last one to win. I and 2 lights were the only 2 mechs who even attempted to backtrack and try to drop the mechs before they could cap to no avail. Many times people focus on stomping around blasting everything, mostly because they either...

A: Have no idea what mode they're playing
B: Are Trigger Happy only going for kills
C: Assume someone else is capping
D: All of the Above

All joking aside, though those 4 are likely true, Instead of all lances heading for the same cap, monkey see monkey do, All 4 members of 2 lances should stick reasonably close together and head to different caps. The 3rd Lance should support whichever lance requires the most support as I've seen in several battles 2 Lances rush one cap while the 3rd just runs around shooting at everyone to distract the other team. Using the 3rd Lance to flank an opposing team using this tactic could be devastating (I suggest a faster lance doing this though as honestly 4 assaults won't move fast enough to flank a rock ).

[Jun Watarase]

Conquest still favors premade teams though. You need lights in that, and premades can ensure they have ECM lights.

Meanwhile what do the randoms have...no lights? A single locust that tries to charge the enemy force and dies?

[Budica Heavy]

+1 OP

[Pygar]

Jun Watarase, on 23 April 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

Conquest still favors premade teams though. You need lights in that, and premades can ensure they have ECM lights.

Meanwhile what do the randoms have...no lights? A single locust that tries to charge the enemy force and dies?

You are part right on that, however...

Oddly, most 4vPUG'ers I run with, including myself...are strangely allergic to playing Conquest mode. It's not that I dislike it as a play mode, I just don't like to play it when I haven't specifically prepared for it, so I usually opt out in the launch process.

And IMO solo PUGs can and do run with lights fairly frequently.

[Craig Steele]

Whats really funny (imo) is that the OP made a humourous reference to group / veteran players saying "L2P, get on comms, join a team" and what reads as the slice of responses in the thread from group players is

"L2P, join a team, get on comms"

Guess the OP was right on the mark in some ways?

[Sephlock]

LRM boats and (to a lesser extent) ballistics don't belong on that list . Also, you forgot about those terrible terrible people who complained about the pure fun that was knockdown.

Jun Watarase, on 23 April 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

Conquest still favors premade teams though. You need lights in that, and premades can ensure they have ECM lights.

Meanwhile what do the randoms have...no lights? A single locust that tries to charge the enemy force and dies?

Thus, 3:3:3:3!

[Ardney]

I'll offer a slightly different perspective. The problem may be the new player experience. It just takes WAY too long to grind out a decent mech. The difference between a mech with Elite masteries and one with only basics is night and day, particularly for energy builds. As a player since CB I had actually completely lost sight of this as I'm currently sitting on ~100m cbills and I'm easily one of the poorer Founders due to long stretches where I wasn't playing.

So sometime after PGI started touting the improvements they'd made to the new player experience I made an alt account and decided to see how long it'd take to ramp up in my favorite mech. It wasn't pretty. Even knowing how to pilot my mech, what tactics to watch for, what equipment to purchase and use, it still took ages to be able perform at the levels I could on my main account because exp for the efficiencies was coming in so slowly, not to mention C-bills for purchasing and kitting out the necessary variants to get Elites unlocked and maxed. But I did it, got my 4P up and running. It was a surprisingly painful experience.

Afterwards I attempted to use that account to train up on light mechs as I'd never done it before. I didn't make it through all the Elites for my Commandos. Having to run them at 90kph (no Speed tweak) with subpar loadouts (barely any C-bills) was just too much of a pain.

And that experience is from someone who more or less 'knows what they're doing". Imagine someone trying the game out and not knowing that DHS is all but mandatory, not immediately grasping that Elite efficiencies make massive differences in how a mech plays, let alone the basic feel of how matches play out. Yes, the knowledge can be imparted by friends trying to recruit someone but this does not remove the grind. Yes the process of acquiring mechs and even experience can be shortcutted to degrees by making MC purchases but would someone be likely to invest in the game if they are not yet having fun? And is someone going to be having much fun if they arrive on the field of battle to see people ostensibly in the same mech as they are, with the same loadout, performing far better than they can because of the efficiencies? Or perhaps they can't even field the same loadouts as those they're facing because they don't have the C-bills for XLs, endo-steel, and DHS. Add to this the imperfections in the MM system and it becomes a hard sell. Some will stick it out. But it's understandable when some don't.

It's a tough problem. Getting new players ramped up while keeping vets interested isn't an easy task. There are a lot of factors involved though. It isn't as simple as 'groups are keeping new players down'. Neither is the solution as simple as telling all players of the game they must join an organized group to have any chance of enjoying themselves.

Tangent: I've seen several posts in this thread and others before it expressing how baffled they are that people don't 'just join a unit, i mean getting on TS isn't that hard'. No, getting the program isn't that hard. But using it might be. Not everyone is in an environment where they are free to speak. More to the point though, not everyone wants to deal with the cost of interacting extensively with other people.

First, let's be real for a second: While there are plenty of decent people out there there are just as many if not more who present as obnoxious when they are ingame. I've been guilty myself at times even though I generally try not to be. Some folks don't even try. Finding a group that is free enough of those types to fit your individual tolerance is a lot of work. Then, even if you do find such a group, there's the matter of objectives (competitive or just for fun?) and existing group dynamics (it always takes time for people to warm to the new guy and integrate him into the routine, if it ever happens). And even if all that is overcome there is the matter of time. Its just flat out faster to drop solo. Period. Sometimes time isn't an issue, but sometimes it is. But are you likely to feel more or less obligated to drop with others if they 'recruited' you?

Each of the above factors is a point of friction and while the amount generated by each one will vary from person to person the fact is that they exist. And since the primary reason people generally play games is to have fun they are going to do all they can to minimize friction for themselves. Sometimes the cost of interacting with others is simply too high to be worth it. That isn't hard to understand at all.

Edited by Ardney, 23 April 2014 - 09:40 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

Here's an example of a terrible match up.

It was actually 10v12 in the enemy team's favor, because the spider disconnected when he was the last person alive and two people on our team were spending most of their time talking instead of playing (one of whom later disconnected). And despite it being 10v12, half the enemy team didn't even break 100 damage.

[WarZ]

I organize a local lan group. Even with me being the organizer, and talking our guys into playing MWO, NO ONE sticks with it.

Thats 11 players locally that I know who have tried the game and wont even touch it anymore. And I tried really hard to not let my misgivings cloud their choice (aka, I didnt bad talk the game or its various issues). Tried to put a positive spin on it. They still wouldnt stay. And thats just my local group. Of the people I know in game only a fraction are still present.

And honestly I cant blame them. Ive gone so far as to stop playing regularly. For almost a year, I'd only play 1-2x a month at most. I skipped 2-3 months at a time hoping the game would be patched and fixed up and issues addressed.

The issues are dont get addressed. They still persist. Its agonizing waiting literally YEARS for obvious fixes and balancing. Much less actual game features.

It's beyond sad.

Edited by WarZ, 23 April 2014 - 09:26 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Ardney, on 23 April 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

*snip* for space

You keep talking sense like this and some of the "Pro Group" / "Hate on PGI" faction are going to label you a White Knight for daring to highlight that other people might have a different view / want from the game than they do.

Good luck with that

[Nyte Kitsune]

Jun Watarase, on 23 April 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

Conquest still favors premade teams though. You need lights in that, and premades can ensure they have ECM lights.

Meanwhile what do the randoms have...no lights? A single locust that tries to charge the enemy force and dies?

Sad but true, I always see one or 2 lights run off on their own, only seconds later to see the message that someone on the team was taken out and lo' it was the mech that ran off. Mind I'm always in PUG groups but I do admit my team does get stomped alot so I'm inclined to believe that a purely random group is partially to blame. Some PUGs do have good teamwork so it balances out sometimes.

It would help if there was a dedicated chat server to chat inbetween matches to make prebuilts instead to try to get friend invites,which currently I have no-one on my list. Unless my mech is disabled we rarely have time to chat during a match and after a match everyone just drops out right away. I'd say, "Hey guys, add me to friends" so I don't have to pug all the time,but TBH my comp doesn't run MWO as well as I'd like and would contribute less to a team than I'd like. Still, if that doesn't bother you then, well... knock yourselves out..some actual teamwork would be refreshing.

[Pygar]

Craig Steele, on 23 April 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

Whats really funny (imo) is that the OP made a humourous reference to group / veteran players saying "L2P, get on comms, join a team" and what reads as the slice of responses in the thread from group players is

"L2P, join a team, get on comms"

Guess the OP was right on the mark in some ways?

Yes, but I changed my mind. Now I say "Do what ever you want, be a special snowflake, and blame everybody else when you lose or the game is no longer fun for you somehow."

The OP sure taught me a lesson eh? How clever of them.

Edited by Pygar, 23 April 2014 - 09:49 PM.

[-Natural Selection-]

I like to play in group with friends, and could care less about "pug stomping". Buuut the post like this now make me just want to punish them all.

[Davers]

Craig Steele, on 23 April 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

You keep talking sense like this and some of the "Pro Group" / "Hate on PGI" faction are going to label you a White Knight for daring to highlight that other people might have a different view / want from the game than they do.

Good luck with that

I don't think a single person claimed the New Player Experience is a good one. Have you changed your stance and now support a 'Solo Only' que and a 'Premade' que, or do you still think 4mans should still drop with pugs?

[Craig Steele]

Davers, on 23 April 2014 - 10:17 PM, said:

I don't think a single person claimed the New Player Experience is a good one. Have you changed your stance and now support a 'Solo Only' que and a 'Premade' que, or do you still think 4mans should still drop with pugs?

Pretty sure I said 2 / 3 mans should have the option to drop with Solo's capped at one such group per team (and maybe 4 man's too but that was stretching it) because I believe there is a demographic that are Fathers / Sons, Significant Others and so forth that are have a "Plug and Play" attitude to the game. They are looking for a more casual and less restrictive environment to spend their limited entertainment time and will not have the same capacity / desire to Stomp.

I also think that giving smaller groups that option will enable them to play mechs of their choice instead of being limited to light and medium mechs when the Heavy and Assault Classes are "snatched up" largely by the bigger groups in their team.

This structure imo gives small groups better mech choices, less MM wait times and still protects the Solo player from facing a mass of concentrated firepower / synchronised builds.

So no, I don't think I have changed my view at all.

My preference is still 2 / 3 man groups having the option to play in the Solo queue, I'd be prepared to listen to arguments supporting 4 mans in the Solo queue but I think its a stretch.

EDIT: Spelling

EDIT 2: Added link

Craig Steele, on 17 April 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

I prefer

PUG QUEUE

• Solo players
  
• Small groups (2 & 3 man) capped at one per side

TEAMPLAY QUEUE

• Groups with 2-12 players and Solo players that have opted-in*
  
• MM tries to match groups 1:1 starting with the largest groups first
  
• Then tries to find 1-2 equal or smaller groups to fill in any gaps (if any)
  
• Any leftover spots are filled with 1-2 solo players per team
  
• Max of 3 groups per team
  
• 1-2 solo players maximum per team (to minimize PUG stomps)

So as small groups (2&3?) can also have faster MM times, better mech selection opportunities / usage and the Solo PUG player experience is protected from stomps.

Edited by Craig Steele, 23 April 2014 - 10:49 PM.

[Slepnir]

Don't feed the troll people Jun Watarase is the queen of the whiners about the premade boogyman. in fact Jun has been at it since closed beta I believe. Look at all the threads and comments he has had deleted by the mods on this very subject. Jun perhaps if you actually played the game instead of disconnecting the moment you think your at a disadvantage mabey things would go better for you. When I drop solo and I end up in Bravo or Charlie lance I am like "cool perhaps we have a group on our team who knows what they are doing". sometimes they do and sometimes they do jack all and get the lowest scores on our side. The matches are 15 minutes, ready up another mech and drop again. its not the end of the world. Winning the pug lottery isn't a sure thing and blaming a group of 2-4 players on the other team for your teams failings is pretty stupid....I'm still enjoying MWO, warts and all, even if I solo or group play(however group play is a lot more enjoyable because I like to play with my friends).......PS I also don't run meta builds

Edited by Slepnir, 23 April 2014 - 11:57 PM.

[Kutfroat]

really good and true post op. put every premade 3+ into the 12 men premade queue. at least people like Pygar will get their praised "teamwork is op" gameplay he likes so much to refer to when facing pugs. but i think the real problem is, people that "abuse" the current system dont really want competition, they want to brag. it´s not only about playing to win, it´s all about winning...if they suddenly dont win as much as they are used to, they will most likely quit. but many of them are people that invested and still invest much money into the game, so pgi wont be pleased if they leave. and for pgi it´s all about the money, not fair gameplay. but in theory, it should´nt be a problem for all those well organized and highly skilled 4 man premades, filled up with various other 3 or 4 man premades, to face a 12 man premade. because that´s what they face when currently joining a game, but on the "recieving" end. but hey, they are all well organized and skilled...

Edited by Kutfroat, 24 April 2014 - 12:22 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

WarHippy, on 23 April 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

I'm a pug and I agree with Pygar, and get the distinct impression that you and the OP are both full of crap.

go over to the carry harder thread

there you will find MM putting newbies and ubervets in the same matches/teams on a fairly regular basis. unfortunately we can't split the player base isolating players from one another to match skillsets {the loosening of elo suggests to me that to keep people finding matches quickly anybody of anyskill within a wide pointless net of 3 score blocks has been made, playebase is low} so the other option is to get the constant sub 200dmg players up to speed with inbuilt training. proper tutorials compulsory before you can enter a match, this learning, all weaps equipment, how to use how to dodge and build shouldn't be the players responsibility, join guilds get on TS etc this should be training modes so players are informed before even launching a match.

it's pgi's responsibility to create fair matches but they constantly skirt around leveling skill sets of the players, elo is bad because it relies upon teams creating the statistic, people's elo drops because they did twice better than all their teamates but still lost or noobs got carried to victory then rage quiet when GGclose is set on them next match. when all the time pgi just need some missions against ai {even turrets} to get newbies used to what their mech can do and how it should be used. that's why pgi is failing to encourage players, they're relying solely on MM to do everything for them like 3/3/3/3 instead of understanding skills defines players, match and build up the skill of the playerbase with better tutes and stop relying on us to do the job for you, especially when you limit the tools needed for it. pay2train private lobbies...

totally agree with the OP, pgi can't build their game for newbies properly and have dragged the rest of us through the dirt to try and let children play and win first time out but have failed everytime and annoyed everyone in the process.

note i don't blame premades at all i encourage them, cause it's just skills and a bit of experience that seperates puggers from premades.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 24 April 2014 - 12:48 AM.

[ElCadaver]

I've had similar experience with a few friends. One guy I got to play with my guild on teamspeak, and he was like "wtf is all this military BS and orders and such. I said "This is how you survive in MWO. Stay in a pack and beat on people". Hey was "KthanksBye MWO"

You just know if you want to win one of those free mech and mechbay deals, you jump online with your guild and ROLFstomp your way to 5 wins syncdropping.

I tried to do the thunderbolt challenge pug dropping, and lost 15 games in a row, and I'm a good player. I'm blasting away with 3-4 kills, and then it's "hey what happened to my team...oh SH&*(^^*&." as 10 mechs stomp over the hill towards you. How many Leroy Jenkins Atlai have people seen recently? Geez!

I'm just playing on the basis that I'm not spending any more money until we get what all the diehard fans who funded the game in the first place were expecting ( community warfare and some kind of plot device resembling the battletech universe), or until MWO shuts down.

Sad, cause I like big stompy robots.

Totally Agree with Galaxy Bulestar on PvE training scenarios for new players.

Edited by ElCadaver, 24 April 2014 - 12:57 AM.

[Nightfire]

Alexandrix, on 23 April 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

first game...i saunter in...what's the first thing I see? a premade with 2 poptarts (victor/ctf3d)....12-0 pugstomp,game ends in less than 3 minutes,with the poptart premades trollololol'ing in chat.So,I turned MWO off and went to play titanfall instead.

You complain about the MWO Matchmaker being so abysmal and setting up so one sided matches that you say you go off an play Titanfall instead?

The irony is strong in this one!