8 replies to this topic

[Sprouticus]

With the comments by Paul in the NGNG podcast, we have confirmation that a burst AC is possible and will probably be part of the game. I had always assumed PGI would never expend the effort do this so I never really worried about it.

However it appear that they are leaning towards it at a bare minimum. It also appears that they will be allowing mixed config lbx's. Both of these are things I think would help balance quite a bit.

However, Paul indicated that only clan weapons would be getting this treatment. I woulld like to voice my feelings on this and give some suggestions:

IMO PGI shoulds:
1) Make the IS AC's burst fire as well. This will go a LONG way towards alieviating the high damage alpha issues in the game.

• some folks claim that high damage single point of damage for AC's is not an issue. It IS an issue at the highest levels of play. Same with the PPC (but that's another topic.
  
• Some folks say making Ac's burst would make the game boring. Perhaps, but burst is different than DoT and it also would make the game a lot easier to balance.
  
• Making the IS AC/UAC's and the clan UAC;s operate the same is ok IMO.
  
• Make the DPS the same.

2) Allow IS mechs to use slug rounds in the lbx10 (and others if the timeline gets moved forward)

• If the lbx10 shelves the AC10, you are no worse off than today
  
• You could lower the recycle on the AC10 slightly if it still underperformed.
  
• If the slug rounds are burst (see #1 above), you could make the slugs for the lbx10 have a higher # of shots (2.5/2.5/2.5/2.5 in the lbx and 4/3/3 in the AC10). That gives the lbx slug rounds slightly less value than a pure AC10 and gives each weapon value.

My suggested weapons values for AC/UAC (# of slugs x dmg per slug)

AC2- 1x2dmg slug (same as today)
AC5- 2x2.5 slug (1 shot every 0.33sec, 1 sec cooldown)
UAC5(IS or clan)- 2x2.5 + 2x2.5 slug (if 2nd shot is taken, it has the same 0.33s burst)
AC10- 3x3.33 slug (1 shot every 0.5 sec, 1s cooldown)
UAC10- 3x3.33 + 3x3.33 alug (same 0.5s burst on 2nd shot)
Ac20- 4x5 burst (0.33 seconds, )
UAC20- 4x5 + 4x5 (0.33 sec, 2.68s cooldown)

This would work out really well because

• you get some damage spread but not as much as lasers (which have 10 ticks per beam)
  
• The AC20/UAC20 still concentrates the most damage
  
• At lower Elo's where torso twist is less common the game really doesn't change much
  
• At higher Elo's it will increase TTL. (still need to fix PPC's but that is another story)

My suggested values for lbx's would be

LB2x- 2x1dmg slug. (0.25s per shot, 0.16s cooldown after 1nd shot)
LB2x- 1x2 pellets (2 pellets, almost no spread out to 3/4 range)
LB5x- 2/2/1 slug (0.4s per shot, 0.4 s cooldown)
LB5X- 5x1 pellets (5 pellets)
LB10X- 4x2.5 slug
LB10X- 5x2 spread (IS or clan, yes this is fewer pellets, but the damage is much better, might want to bump the internal HP damage to make up for fewer pellets)
LB20x- 5x4 slug (0.33 seconds, )
UAC20- 4x5 + 4x5 (0.33 sec, 2.68s cooldown)



As you can see, the slug rounds on the lbx slightly underperform the UAC slugs by having 1 additional slug in the burst (2 for the lbx2, 3 in the lbx5, 4 in the lbx10, 5 in the lbx20). It is not perfect because the damage is not linear so the lbx2 & 5 are more impacted than the lbx10 oe 20, but it is still significant enough IMO.


For the IS, the Ac10 is the weapon you use for pure DPS, but the lbx10 is more flexible and the pellets crit.




Would this change the feel of the weapons? Yes. Is that a bad thing? Not IMO. In MW3 the burst still felt like an AC, not a machine gun. I think if done correctly these would feel the same.

Edited by Egomane, 24 April 2014 - 12:02 PM.

[AlmightyAeng]

The point of them doing this is so they can point out that Clans are "different, but equal" which has been their party line all along for balancing clans.

Lore, and the idea that IS should also have these fancy toys, isn't a consideration.

Edit: This is not me defending PGI...this is me saying PGI finds your argument irrelevant.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 24 April 2014 - 11:27 AM.

[Madw0lf]

Ghost Badger, on 24 April 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

The point of them doing this is so they can point out that Clans are "different, but equal" which has been their party line all along for balancing clans.

Lore, and the idea that IS should also have these fancy toys, isn't a consideration.

Edit: This is not me defending PGI...this is me saying PGI finds your argument irrelevant.

"Burst fire ACs"

And I agree with PGI

[Sprouticus]

One additional thing using burst does is make the pellet far more appealing.

Right now you sacrifice a LOT of coring power to use an lbx.

But with a burst based design, you have the choice of either a stream of slugs (AC/UAC) or a tight spread of pellets. The amount of coring potential lost is far less. That is a really big deal.

[Sprouticus]

Ghost Badger, on 24 April 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

The point of them doing this is so they can point out that Clans are "different, but equal" which has been their party line all along for balancing clans.

Lore, and the idea that IS should also have these fancy toys, isn't a consideration.

Edit: This is not me defending PGI...this is me saying PGI finds your argument irrelevant.

Perhaps, but there is no reason for this. For instance, the clan lasers will operate EXACTLY the same as the IS lasers, just a longer beam (at least that is the plan right now). clan LRM's operate exactly the same as IS, except no minimum range (rmap up to max damage is the plan right now).

• UAC's already work differently than Ac's for IS weapons (jamming). No need to make them work differently for clans.
  
• The only stated reason that the IS lbx cant use slug rounds is shelving the AC10. I suggested some really good fixes (IMO) above which mitigate that risk. And even if it does occur, you just end up where we are today (one weapon shelved).

Edited by Sprouticus, 24 April 2014 - 11:42 AM.

[Charons Little Helper]

I still just wish they'd let Clanners have better mechs - have the two sides never grouped on the same team - and then give us IS pilots NPC backup to balance it out. (tanks/choppers/missile trucks etc) This would be the easiest way to balance the two sides - as they could easily increase or decrease the # of NPCs if either Clan or IS was winning more than 55% or so of the matches.

It'd fit the fluff as well - as the IS side could say - "Sure - we'll match your 12 mechs on the field of honor or whatever." - and along with the 12 mechs - they bring a bunch of other military resources.

[Sprouticus]

Charons Little Helper, on 24 April 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

I still just wish they'd let Clanners have better mechs - have the two sides never grouped on the same team - and then give us IS pilots NPC backup to balance it out. (tanks/choppers/missile trucks etc) This would be the easiest way to balance the two sides - as they could easily increase or decrease the # of NPCs if either Clan or IS was winning more than 55% or so of the matches.

It'd fit the fluff as well - as the IS side could say - "Sure - we'll match your 12 mechs on the field of honor or whatever." - and along with the 12 mechs - they bring a bunch of other military resources.

I agree, but I am trying to keep the discussion to things that might actually happen. That is why I never really worried about the burst fire Ac's til now, I didnt think PGI would take the time to code the burst fire mechanics. Since they are, I am suggesting a way to fix existing weapon balance issues. (The PPC being the onlly weapons left to fix if they fix the AC's).

[DONTOR]

Charons Little Helper, on 24 April 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

I still just wish they'd let Clanners have better mechs - have the two sides never grouped on the same team - and then give us IS pilots NPC backup to balance it out. (tanks/choppers/missile trucks etc) This would be the easiest way to balance the two sides - as they could easily increase or decrease the # of NPCs if either Clan or IS was winning more than 55% or so of the matches.

It'd fit the fluff as well - as the IS side could say - "Sure - we'll match your 12 mechs on the field of honor or whatever." - and along with the 12 mechs - they bring a bunch of other military resources.

That would be the most IMMERSIVE and BADASS thing to ever happen to this game! I would support this 100% bt it wont happen I dont think.

[Daekar]

Accept that the IS LBX will never be dual ammo and move on.

I would rather see them make the spread shape cylindrical rather than cone shaped - the LBX would then be useful. Barring that, kick up the crit rate and/or damage per pellet. It's so situational it's useless right now... I love it when I go to attack an Atlas and it's packing LBX... I know I'm safe.