53 replies to this topic

[Geeks On Hugs]

Iqfish, on 25 April 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

I would like to see the return of moving feet accordingly to terrain, as much as I finally want to see destructible environment, I mean it's 2014 and this is CryEngine 3

I'm against destructible terrain after I saw the performance penalty it caused it BF3. It was great on my friends machine but made me sad to play on mine. It was one of my most anticipated features but I realized that it's not essential if it detracts from the fun and that would include the majority of us without cutting edge gaming rigs. As it stands I think one of MWO's shining points is great performance on modest hardware.

Now someday when I again have a bleeding edge gaming rig I'll come back and totally edit this to say the opposite. :-P

[Geeks On Hugs]

9erRed, on 26 April 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

what the pilot see's as the actual ground may not necessarily be what is physically out there.
- Terrain geometry being drawn and actual environmental mesh may indeed be two separate heights.
~ what we see as a small structure from the cockpit may actually be an 8 to 10ft high well embedded object, and could be in the area of 4 to 8 tons of mass, think iceberg here.
- The Mech's model and how the actual legs/feet interact with the terrain mesh need work.

Also, I think, along the lines of how things "appear": the designers need to be more careful about how things are scaled. Some objects look appropriate but then some look appropriate if I were a person's view and not looking out of a 'Mech. Also some objects are not scaled with each other. For example there are building doors ostensibly for people that could just about be entered with a Locust.

[Nirankar]

9erRed, on 26 April 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

Greetings all,

BattleTech lore wise;
- The Mech's in Lore, do know what is around them and do walk, step around objects as part of the Mech's Di computer avoidance systems, all with out pilot input. The pilot directs the Mech to walk this direction, the Mech plots its route and moves, but can be overridden by the pilot at anytime to actually crash its way forward. (say walking through woods)

Game wise;
- what the pilot see's as the actual ground may not necessarily be what is physically out there.
- Terrain geometry being drawn and actual environmental mesh may indeed be two separate heights.
~ what we see as a small structure from the cockpit may actually be an 8 to 10ft high well embedded object, and could be in the area of 4 to 8 tons of mass, think iceberg here.
- The Mech's model and how the actual legs/feet interact with the terrain mesh need work.
- Articulating the model may not have any physical relationship to that surface mesh.
(as we see with a Mech only employing it toes in contact with the "ground" to walk up any incline)
- Nothing changing in the angle of any Mech's feet with relation to the current terrain, coding the Mech's feet to terrain angle follow is not happening, again this may be related to the mesh and drawn terrain.
- The lack of deformation of any terrain while a Mech moves through it, which would require destructible terrain and objects. ( requiring quite a few resources and taxing most systems.)
- giving the Mech the ability to push or crush smaller objects in its path requires deformable or destructible objects, and retaining all those separate objects in memory. (I don't think we are at that point yet.)

Some of the Mech models we have now do have restricted movement in the legs and height they can lift there feet, the "Stalker" and "Atlas" probably being some of these. Although both of these Models appear to have knee joins that could actually lift the feet higher when required. Movement collision with errors in the maps, causing a movement stoppage, again mostly related to objects in the mesh not really being where they are designed to be. (read: errors in the map/mesh)

- There is the entire Lore related component that isn't modeled yet, that most of the current Mechs were able to kneel down or squat to one leg. (one leg to the knee, the other forward.) This posture was for stability as well as concealment, and sometimes had or brought additional benefits to the computer related gameplay. (stabile platform for firing, quicker lock on to targets) Now with the games it required a full stop and selecting the key to assume that position, both assuming it and returning to standing posture. [Note: The Atlas doesn't kneel] Fluff wise, the Mech had to be stopped for the gyro to compensate for the large shift in mass/weight to kneel.

So quite a bit of game modeling, artwork, and map cleaning up to be done yet. What we have now works, mostly, and as I stated, most of these objects that some are getting stuck on are not actually suppose to be there. (map errors) The sooner that QA and the designers have identified these issues, the quicker they go away. This requires assistance from us, the players, to actually report them. And a quick F9 and screen shot to log the location.
(I'm sure the backlog of these objects is growing, and as they complete map pass's are corrected.)

We would probably need to hear from David Bradley, Omid Kiarostami, Alexander Schmidt, and Brian Windover to understand were the design limits are in the current game. And what we may see in additional content, design as the game and the code progresses.
- Some of these in-game Mech models were designed a while ago, as the Dev. engineers, designers, build the newer Clan Mechs there skill and talent is improving. We do need another few pass's on all the models, but that is a rather time consuming process and costly. It will probably lead to structural model and armature changes not just art work. As the Dev.'s work with the CryEngine they are also showing improvement so it may just be a time and resources issue now. Get the core elements out then refine the design.

Just some thoughts,
9erRed

Adding more on the terrain/mesh issues: How about getting stuck to a wall for no apparent reason, and not being able to throttle/jj. Just sitting there turning your torso. Congrats, you're now a 100t turret.

[CDLord HHGD]

Those Goddamn statues in River City.... Make them destructible, pass through, or remove them please.

[Stardancer01]

Even if the mech doesn’t have Jump Jets we should still be able to make our mech jump normally, (normal jump height dependent on weight). Or Equivalent to a quarter of one jump jet.

Edited by Stardancer01, 11 May 2014 - 07:25 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Stardancer01, on 07 May 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Even if the mech doesn’t have Jump Jets we should still be able to make our mech jump normally, (normal jump height dependent on weight).

That's a tough one... I cannot recall ever reading about a mech jumping without jets in any novel and there are certainly no rules for it in TT....

Having said that... JC! We're big stompy robots! We shouldn't get hung up on a sedan or statue or small rock.

Edited by cdlord, 07 May 2014 - 11:20 AM.

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Indeed there is precedence for some of this in the novels.
- Some of the Mechs were able to squat to one knee,
- Some of the Mechs were actually able to go prone, although any torso weapons were now useless.
(from 'Decision at Thunder rift', where Mech's were in a defensive position on the side of a mountain pass)
- I seem to remember reading in one of the novels about a DFA movement by one Mech against another who was in a lower valley pass, walking off the edge would not have moved the attacker far enough out to conduct that move.

What we are not seeing within this game is the Mech actually plotting a safe route when it moves, as the Lore states that the Di computer actually drives the Mech and the pilot control where he wants to go. Similar to 'fly by wire' controls, move where you want to go but the machine actually steers the vehicle.

But what we are seeing in the game with Mechs getting 'stuck' on terrain has nothing to do with that, it's real 'Errors' in the map and the mesh, collision box's not being tight enough on some objects and the Mech model not actually lifting it feet high enough to clear some terrain. Where at other times the Mech model seems quite capable of lifting or extending it's legs or feet, say during the sequence of stepping off a cliff edge. I'm sorry but the Mech movement code for the legs and feet just barely keeps the feet on the surface of the terrain, quite a bit of slightly hovering over the ground happening sometimes.

9erRed

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

As much as it pains me to see a tiny rock, log, ledge, or statue stop a 20-100 ton war machine, it should slow us down.

Think about it like this, you're in your Jenner and you step on a rock that's ankle high and it slows you down or jostles you just long enough to get you killed. Your mech mech was moving full tilt boogie, 152 kph.

Now, compare it to the human body. I weigh in at 180lbs/81.5kilos and I'm 73"/1.85m tall and can run a 4:55 one mile. If I'm moving at that speed and step on a rock the size of a tennis ball, It's going to hurt and damn near bring me to a complete stop as I hop, skip, and swear for a few meters before continuing my run.

Legs and feet are very susceptible to even minor terrain variations.

[depreciator]

slope climbing is more related to engine power and speed :
its all about step upstairing
an assault mech can have a bad leg folder design but a light mecha too
still a assault is always more tall an at equal design quality must pass step more heighty than others class
is speed will allow to pass more sloppy way it mean hard stop damage if the foot can be lifted to the required height of wall and such
some of the biggest tank pass far less slopes than trial competition motorcycles (steps too but it more a skill affair) but noway to pass trench without jumping else the footprint long enought

[Grimmrog]

how cqn 100t not pass a 4t rock? they would push it away simply. But yet we just get stuck. Not so nice and also feels a bit unrealistic. Same foe some very fragile and tall looking stuff that you still can not pass because its kinda indestrucable.

[Veranova]

AUSwarrior24, on 25 April 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

Wait... this was in the game in the first place? This is one of my little gripes I have when I see a 'Mech kick a hill-- I mean walk up it. Why was it removed?

I agree though, while it's something fairly core and unlikely to change, for too long MW has felt like a tank with leg animations. The whole idea of legs is to be extra maneuverable around obstacles.

CPU usage.
The angle of the foot on every 'mech in a game had to be calculated by the client.

There are a lot of things that PGI had to back off in early beta for this reason.

[Kalimaster]

Yes we need to be able to step over these small rocks as easily as we can cars and other objects. I think we need a height parameter for these abilities. Yeah, been there, done that, got blown apart because my Mech was stuck. I also have been behind the guns, laughing my head off because someone was stuck and they could not even turn enough to bring their weapons to bear on me. In fact, I've seen several kills done because someone is stuck on a minor feature. I know they wanted to make the hill sides more challenging, and prevent Mechs from going every which way, but it also causes some problems..

[Chihuahuablend]

JohanssenJr, on 08 May 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

As much as it pains me to see a tiny rock, log, ledge, or statue stop a 20-100 ton war machine, it should slow us down.

Think about it like this, you're in your Jenner and you step on a rock that's ankle high and it slows you down or jostles you just long enough to get you killed. Your mech mech was moving full tilt boogie, 152 kph.

Now, compare it to the human body. I weigh in at 180lbs/81.5kilos and I'm 73"/1.85m tall and can run a 4:55 one mile. If I'm moving at that speed and step on a rock the size of a tennis ball, It's going to hurt and damn near bring me to a complete stop as I hop, skip, and swear for a few meters before continuing my run.

Legs and feet are very susceptible to even minor terrain variations.

Therein lies the fault; The mech is not a person. The mech is a far more advanced sensory machine, in that the mech is plotting where the feet are going, with additional sensory data a human being wouldn't have. A mech would inherently have a terrain-mapping radar, if not an additional optical-based system, and computational system that would at the least avoid the "tennis ball sized rock" you mentioned, and if not able to do so, would either take whatever damage-reducing corrective action possible, or could even slow down the mech to avoid damage if programmed to do so. if you saw a rock that big, would you just step on it anyways despite having the full thinking capactiy to decide if doing so was the best course of action? Of course not. It could even do things a person might not think to do, like take a short step leading up to the object, that it can preserve the most momentum while the next step would safely clear the object.

Edited by Chihuahuablend, 24 June 2014 - 07:46 PM.

[Koniving]

Chihuahuablend, on 24 June 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

Therein lies the fault; The mech is not a person. The mech is a far more advanced sensory machine, in that the mech is plotting where the feet are going, with additional sensory data a human being wouldn't have. A mech would inherently have a terrain-mapping radar, if not an additional optical-based system, and computational system that would at the least avoid the "tennis ball sized rock" you mentioned, and if not able to do so, would either take whatever damage-reducing corrective action possible, or could even slow down the mech to avoid damage if programmed to do so. if you saw a rock that big, would you just step on it anyways despite having the full thinking capactiy to decide if doing so was the best course of action? Of course not. It could even do things a person might not think to do, like take a short step leading up to the object, that it can preserve the most momentum while the next step would safely clear the object.

You're assuming it has modern to post modern technology, and not a technological dark age.
By 3000 AD, most of the knowledge of how the technology even worked was gone.

I refer you to this topic where the situation is much better explained. But in 2500 to 2700, Battlemechs were incredibly advanced and capable, to the point that they could give hand signals, perform advanced melee moves to the extent of martial arts, and flip over Heavy Rifles to smash in another mech's cockpit.

After 2700... that kind of advanced control became lost, both between side effects of neural helms causing deterioration of the mind, dementia, etc. as well as scientists and labs who knew about it being slaughtered in targeted attacks.

The list just keeps going. For example there was a period of nearly 200 years when the technology behind NARC missile beacons was lost. Then Comstar is going around intentionally sabotaging everyone's attempt to recover lost technologies.

You'll see lots more on the subject here. But these battlemechs? Old, constantly repaired, constantly salvaged, deteriorating things that are nearly in shambles. Most of them don't even have actual radar, hence the forward sensor. But some do (Trebuchet 7M, Centurion AL are two that come with complete 360 degree radar in Battletech; but few people know how it really works or how to put it on another battlemech.)

[Chihuahuablend]

Koniving, on 24 June 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:

given that, I don't see how a mech would be able to walk in a funtional manner then on anything but perfectly level ground, if it would have no inherent terrain awareness nor the controls to allow the pilot to do the walking/running/feet placement directly.
Haven't heard much about a blind runner who can do it solo. Wouldn't expect a dark-age mech to do any better.

Edited by Chihuahuablend, 25 June 2014 - 01:34 PM.

[Koniving]

Chihuahuablend, on 25 June 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

given that, I don't see how a mech would be able to walk in a funtional manner then on anything but perfectly level ground, if it would have no inherent terrain awareness nor the controls to allow the pilot to do the walking/running/feet placement directly.
Haven't heard much about a blind runner who can do it solo. Wouldn't expect a dark-age mech to do any better.

Indeed. Of course, the mechs were still capable of walking, climbing, etc., but much of the control was reduced to basic programs and push button commands, since the neuro-helms got dwindled to little more than balance keepers.
Meanwhile the Clan ones are incredibly advanced, which was the big stickler about them.

An example of IS mechs having difficulty with terrain. This Kintaro was trying to short cut through a building that a Trebuchet of mine landed on 40 seconds (4 turns) previously. Said building collapsed, Trebuchet fell 3 stories. The pilot was injured and died in short order. When moving there, Kintaro nearly slipped on the asphalt (running and turning on a street), and upon arriving at the rubble the mech tripped.

Spoiler

Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) must make a piloting skill check while moving in hex 0908 (running & turning on pavement).
Needs 4 [5 (Base piloting skill) - 1 (running & turning on pavement)], rolls 7 : succeeds.


Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) must make a piloting skill check while moving from hex 1008 to hex 1109 (entering Rubble).
Needs 5 [5 (Base piloting skill) + 0 (entering Rubble)], rolls 4 : falls.
Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) falls 0 level(s) into hex 1109
Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) falls on its left side, suffering 6 damage.
Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) takes 5 damage to LT.
13 Armor remaining.
Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) takes 1 damage to CT.
7 Armor remaining.

Pilot of Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) "Rebecca MacKissack" must roll 5 to avoid damage; rolls 4 : fails.
Pilot of Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) "Rebecca MacKissack" takes 1 damage.
Pilot of Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) "Rebecca MacKissack" needs a 3 to stay conscious. Rolls 8 : successful!


Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) must make a piloting skill check (getting up).
Needs 5 [5 (Base piloting skill) + 0 (getting up)], rolls 9 : succeeds.

Cattlemaster CTL-2 (Hunter) (Koniving) must make a piloting skill check while moving in hex 0713 (running & turning on pavement).
Needs 4 [5 (Base piloting skill) - 1 (running & turning on pavement)], rolls 7 : succeeds.

[BetaVirus]

Why was the ability to step over thing removed from the game in the first place. i miss being able to step over rocks and small rails. now i die on pebbles and other tiny things the size of my mechs toes.


BRING BACK MY WALKING ABILITY

[Wardsylvania]

This frustrating issue is why I will only use mechs with jump jets.

[Mark of Caine]

Have you guys ever walked behind a Stalker or Daishi and notice that when they are climbing a hill, the entire mech leans back dangerously to the point of tipping over on its backside? I'm sure there are a few other mechs that do this, but I found those two assault mechs to be rather noticeable.

Instead, the mech should be leaning forward a little to compensate their center of gravity shift, and the legs should be lifting a little higher to simulate climbing a hill.

[Just wanna play]

I still think its goofy climbing ability is based on just plain size and not power to weight ratio. Wouldnt a bigger mech climb over smaller things more easily anyway? I always laughed when my 50kph hunchback would zoom by a 80kph cataphract up hill, it makes no sense

Koniving, on 25 June 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

Indeed. Of course, the mechs were still capable of walking, climbing, etc., but much of the control was reduced to basic programs and push button commands, since the neuro-helms got dwindled to little more than balance keepers.
Meanwhile the Clan ones are incredibly advanced, which was the big stickler about them.

An example of IS mechs having difficulty with terrain. This Kintaro was trying to short cut through a building that a Trebuchet of mine landed on 40 seconds (4 turns) previously. Said building collapsed, Trebuchet fell 3 stories. The pilot was injured and died in short order. When moving there, Kintaro nearly slipped on the asphalt (running and turning on a street), and upon arriving at the rubble the mech tripped.

Spoiler

Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) must make a piloting skill check while moving in hex 0908 (running & turning on pavement).
Needs 4 [5 (Base piloting skill) - 1 (running & turning on pavement)], rolls 7 : succeeds.


Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) must make a piloting skill check while moving from hex 1008 to hex 1109 (entering Rubble).
Needs 5 [5 (Base piloting skill) + 0 (entering Rubble)], rolls 4 : falls.
Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) falls 0 level(s) into hex 1109
Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) falls on its left side, suffering 6 damage.
Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) takes 5 damage to LT.
13 Armor remaining.
Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) takes 1 damage to CT.
7 Armor remaining.

Pilot of Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) "Rebecca MacKissack" must roll 5 to avoid damage; rolls 4 : fails.
Pilot of Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) "Rebecca MacKissack" takes 1 damage.
Pilot of Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) "Rebecca MacKissack" needs a 3 to stay conscious. Rolls 8 : successful!


Kintaro KTO-19 (Koniving) must make a piloting skill check (getting up).
Needs 5 [5 (Base piloting skill) + 0 (getting up)], rolls 9 : succeeds.

Cattlemaster CTL-2 (Hunter) (Koniving) must make a piloting skill check while moving in hex 0713 (running & turning on pavement).
Needs 4 [5 (Base piloting skill) - 1 (running & turning on pavement)], rolls 7 : succeeds.

Table Top reminds me on Tom and Jerry