232 replies to this topic

[Roland]

Featherwood, on 30 April 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

One thing really bothers me since CBT and early descriptions of CW (search for 2011 Bryan/Russ posts):
it is was expected that CW will introduce planetary assaults and ability to hold planet for a faction, I still cannot imagine or force myself to believe that entire planetary assault will be represented by single map of <roughly> 2-3 square kilometers. Entire planet! It would be disappointingly stupid. Yes, map generator for a sessional shooter is very complicated task which requires competence PGI simply does not poses, but there should be more simple solutions which could make players experience more variative. It would be absolutely cool to start every match on newly generated map, but it would be no less cool to start every match on some part of huge map representing a planet (instead of dropping into small area you've seen many times before). That I would call a tactical shooter then.

Edit: forgot to mention weather. I can keep dreaming still...

Well, back in the MW4 planetary leagues, we would represent PA's by having multiple drops take place on a sequence of randomly selected maps, where the map selection pool was determined as some subset of the overall map selection based upon the environment of the planet being fought on.

For instance, some planet with a hot, arid climate would have PA's that primarily took place on the desert maps (i.e. canyon, dustbowl, etc.) as well as urban environments.

I would expect that MWO will eventually have a similar system if they implement CW, although it will require the development of a significant number of new maps to match the variety we had in MW4.

EDIT:
Oh, we also had randomly generated environmental settings to mix things up... so you would have different fog conditions, as well as different day/night settings... sometimes you'd have things like rainstorms, etc.

Back then though, those settings weren't part of the terrain itself.. they were just environmental settings you could adjust, on any map.

Edited by Roland, 30 April 2014 - 02:26 PM.

[Xolin]

I, for one, would LOVE to see:
Tourmaline Night
Crimson Straight Snow
HPG in the desert

but mostly:


SOLARIS ARENA!!!!!

[Rebas Kradd]

Xolin, on 30 April 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

I, for one, would LOVE to see:
Tourmaline Night
Crimson Straight Snow
HPG in the desert

but mostly:


SOLARIS ARENA!!!!!

I do agree the community would appreciate a small, simple map like that. Something that can be relatively easily built and tossed out just to break the monotony, something without the usual complexity and busyness. Alas, PGI's got a very small pipeline and a singular focus that holds back even stuff like this.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 30 April 2014 - 02:31 PM.

[Sephlock]

Xolin, on 30 April 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

I, for one, would LOVE to see:
Tourmaline Night
Crimson Straight Snow
HPG in the desert

but mostly:


SOLARIS ARENA!!!!!

Weren't a lot of Arenas sort of themed (so you can sort of pretend certain maps are actually arena maps) ?

[Xolin]

Sephlock, on 30 April 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

Weren't a lot of Arenas sort of themed (so you can sort of pretend certain maps are actually arena maps) ?

well, i meant ONLY for use in Private matches

[-Natural Selection-]

I think the recreational mappers and modders are highly under rated. The have been amazing maps made for tons of games by private sector. Pretty complicated maps with no bugs using tools WAY more primitive than what is available now with engines such as Cry. And in very short time to boot.

Even if some bugs and scaling were to be worked out, it is really amazing that the free labor and time saved would be passed over. Hell, I am sure some would pitch in with just landscape models if given the correct scale and opportunity.

[Nyte Kitsune]

As easy as you "Think" it is to make new maps, have you tried graphics programming, somehow I highly doubt it. I tried once, its alot harder than you think, not only do you have to map the terrain, but you need to make sure the seams are in place, no odd collision issues, texturing, lighting, particle effects, the list goes on. Yes, they might have programs that make building a new map easier, but I have a friend who is in this line of work and its not easy.

[Zolaz]

Just because someone who is incompetent says that something is hard doesnt mean that it is hard.

Edited by Zolaz, 30 April 2014 - 03:13 PM.

[-Natural Selection-]

Sstaan, on 30 April 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

As easy as you &quot;Think&quot; it is to make new maps, have you tried graphics programming, somehow I highly doubt it. I tried once, its alot harder than you think, not only do you have to map the terrain, but you need to make sure the seams are in place, no odd collision issues, texturing, lighting, particle effects, the list goes on. Yes, they might have programs that make building a new map easier, but I have a friend who is in this line of work and its not easy.

I made maps and mods for another game which I ran on my servers for almost for almost a decade. I have also looked at and made a couple for Cryengine to see how things have evolved. So ya I have swam in this pool a little.

How do so many seem to know exactly what others experiences with things are?

[verybad]

AUSwarrior24, on 25 April 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

With all due respect, do you guys really know that much about game development?

To build new maps, developers and designers have to dedicate a large amount of time towards designing the maps, which is important for a relatively tactical game, and creating it, which is no easy feat due to the amount of little (unnecessary imo) details on each.

'Expanding the maps' indeed. What they need to spend time on is the damn core features of the game, like the Clans, and something other than this god forsaken deathmatch gameplay.

With all due respect, a lot of us do. Almost every game out there that has mod support is better for it, and there are a large number of talented people out there that are capable of making professional quality work.

[IraqiWalker]

Featherwood, on 30 April 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

CW

If I am not mistaken, a single Planetary assault is going to be 100 drops. Watch the video of the CW reveal they did during the launch party (If I recall correctly)

Zolaz, on 30 April 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

Just because someone who is incompetent says that something is hard doesnt mean that it is hard.

How do you know they're incompetent? On the contrary, you've alienated yourself from the argument by spouting a foolish line like that without providing anything resembling an example to prove a point. That statement makes anyone with any basic logic question your own competence.

verybad, on 30 April 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

With all due respect, a lot of us do. Almost every game out there that has mod support is better for it, and there are a large number of talented people out there that are capable of making professional quality work.

While I agree that a modding community improves the game (9 times out of 10), the software development model isn't flexible enough to allow that. Not many (doesn't mean none) MOBA games let mods into the setting. Unless those mods are strictly cosmetic and have no impact on the game itself (DOTA2).

---

I don't even know if they're using the Waterfall model, the XP model, or a different development model, and if anyone here doesn't know what those things are, then they can't really criticize PGI's map making speed, as they have no understanding of the massive amount of checks and balances, and triple checking of those checks and balances that goes into a professional model.

Most Development models, even the fastest ones, are extremely slow compared to your average Joe sitting in front of his machine making a product solo, or even with a couple of friends.

Judging from the way PGI has been working though. I'd say their progress is more along the lines of the Waterfall Model. Slow, quintuple checked, if something goes wrong either release and then fix, or just scarp and start from scratch.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 30 April 2014 - 04:34 PM.

[-Natural Selection-]

hey, if they don't want the free help from those guys willing to offer then screw it.

[Roland]

Sstaan, on 30 April 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

As easy as you "Think" it is to make new maps, have you tried graphics programming, somehow I highly doubt it. I tried once, its alot harder than you think, not only do you have to map the terrain, but you need to make sure the seams are in place, no odd collision issues, texturing, lighting, particle effects, the list goes on. Yes, they might have programs that make building a new map easier, but I have a friend who is in this line of work and its not easy.

Ok... just so ya know... making maps isn't really "graphics programming".

[Corvus Antaka]

Rebas Kradd, on 30 April 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

I've been mapmaking for quite a while and I suspect that the standards of a professional corporation are just a little higher than those of some random guy at his computer with no investor expectations held over him and no user performance ranges required.

The flipside of the "I'm part of the 99% and RAH RAH corporations are evil" attitude is that corporations usually have deliberate checks and procedures in place to prevent problems. We call it bureaucracy, and sometimes you're right, but sometimes you're just impatient. Your mind naturally jumps to the Terra Therma bugs at this point...whatever. I never said it'd be perfect. I said it could be a lot worse. I would not be opening my wallet to a team of 7 that churned out a map every month. I wouldn't feel confident in their testing procedures.

Oh, but I must be lying about my mapmaking experience since I don't agree with you, right?

I'm the head of a corporation that dwarfs PGI's little outfit, and if my employee told me making 1 single map in this game cost me $250,000 I'd expect a logical and FULL breakdown of where those costs went.

I first asked Bryan the question "why does a map cost $250,000 to make?" back in an ask the devs after he made this ridiculous claim at the game conference.

I never recieved an answer or reply.

Years later, I continue to be assaulted with idiotics like " STFU amatuer armchair dev", while still not recieving a justifiable and logical cost breakdown and answer to this question as to where exactly, or rather in what dimension PGI feels they can justify the expense of a map running $250,000.

Interestingly many other game developers have the same question.

So perhaps PGI could finally answer my question "why does a MWO map cost $250,000 to make?" by giving us a cost breakdown we can all see.

If PGI is telling the truth, they should be able to show us in hard numbers why such a figure is "Rational" and why only their highly talented staff can create such a wonder for a mere $250,000.

On reddit and here I've seen these continued "trolls" all unable to provide answers, except stfu and sit down you "armchair designer"

Cut the B.S. and give me a straight answer - "why does a map in MWO cost $250,000 to make?"

As a CEO, I can tell you that I would expect a full numbers rundown and exact justification for such a figure, and having that in hand would easily be able to produce such for my customers to validate their faith in my use of their funds for future development.

[Gooner]

I have to admit that I'm getting a bit bored of MWO again now.

I had a gap in the release schedule of other new games that I was interested in, so I activated my founders premium time a couple of months ago. It ends tomorrow. Its been really useful for grinding CBills so that I could finish mastering the Victor, add double heat sinks to all my mechs, and get 2/3rds of the way through mastering the Battlemaster. But through April I've been playing alot less than I was in March, because its just the same thing over and over and over and over and over again.

Long story short: I need new maps / gametypes.

[Lindonius]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 April 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

Cut the B.S. and give me a straight answer - "why does a map in MWO cost $250,000 to make?"

Just keep asking that question over and over and eventually someone might give you an answer....

Like this guy......

Edited by Lindonius, 30 April 2014 - 11:25 PM.

[Sean von Steinike]

AUSwarrior24, on 25 April 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

With all due respect, do you guys really know that much about game development?

To build new maps, developers and designers have to dedicate a large amount of time towards designing the maps, which is important for a relatively tactical game, and creating it, which is no easy feat due to the amount of little (unnecessary imo) details on each.

'Expanding the maps' indeed. What they need to spend time on is the damn core features of the game, like the Clans, and something other than this god forsaken deathmatch gameplay.

Red Orchestra 2/Rising storm has player created maps. They even hold contests for them.

[Heisenberg MWO]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 April 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

I'm the head of a corporation that dwarfs PGI's little outfit, and if my employee told me making 1 single map in this game cost me $250,000 I'd expect a logical and FULL breakdown of where those costs went.

I first asked Bryan the question "why does a map cost $250,000 to make?" back in an ask the devs after he made this ridiculous claim at the game conference.

I never recieved an answer or reply.

Years later, I continue to be assaulted with idiotics like " STFU amatuer armchair dev", while still not recieving a justifiable and logical cost breakdown and answer to this question as to where exactly, or rather in what dimension PGI feels they can justify the expense of a map running $250,000.

Interestingly many other game developers have the same question.

So perhaps PGI could finally answer my question "why does a MWO map cost $250,000 to make?" by giving us a cost breakdown we can all see.

If PGI is telling the truth, they should be able to show us in hard numbers why such a figure is "Rational" and why only their highly talented staff can create such a wonder for a mere $250,000.

On reddit and here I've seen these continued "trolls" all unable to provide answers, except stfu and sit down you "armchair designer"

Cut the B.S. and give me a straight answer - "why does a map in MWO cost $250,000 to make?"

As a CEO, I can tell you that I would expect a full numbers rundown and exact justification for such a figure, and having that in hand would easily be able to produce such for my customers to validate their faith in my use of their funds for future development.

I havnt been here long but i think i figured out whats going on here. This is a dev team that does NOTHING! Well hardly anything. They make maps and mechs. If they dont pay their employees ridiculous amounts of money for the one thing they do... they wouldnt get paid very much at all.

They have to justify funneling money into their employees pockets somehow. Im dying to know. What do you guys do or get paid for between maps? No really. Honest question. No cynicism intended.

[Craig Steele]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 April 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

I'm the head of a corporation that dwarfs PGI's little outfit, and if my employee told me making 1 single map in this game cost me $250,000 I'd expect a logical and FULL breakdown of where those costs went.

I first asked Bryan the question "why does a map cost $250,000 to make?" back in an ask the devs after he made this ridiculous claim at the game conference.

I never recieved an answer or reply.

Years later, I continue to be assaulted with idiotics like " STFU amatuer armchair dev", while still not recieving a justifiable and logical cost breakdown and answer to this question as to where exactly, or rather in what dimension PGI feels they can justify the expense of a map running $250,000.

Interestingly many other game developers have the same question.

So perhaps PGI could finally answer my question "why does a MWO map cost $250,000 to make?" by giving us a cost breakdown we can all see.

If PGI is telling the truth, they should be able to show us in hard numbers why such a figure is "Rational" and why only their highly talented staff can create such a wonder for a mere $250,000.

On reddit and here I've seen these continued "trolls" all unable to provide answers, except stfu and sit down you "armchair designer"

Cut the B.S. and give me a straight answer - "why does a map in MWO cost $250,000 to make?"

As a CEO, I can tell you that I would expect a full numbers rundown and exact justification for such a figure, and having that in hand would easily be able to produce such for my customers to validate their faith in my use of their funds for future development.

As the CEO of your organisation, is it your policy to release your business cost basis to the public arena where your competitors can review and tailor their offerings accordingly? Do you publish fully detailed P&L statements for community overview? How do your shareholders feel about this?

Also, is it your company policy to provide your employees salaries to the general public. If so, can you advise how you protect your staff from being poached by your competitiors utilising that data and making highers offers to key staff. How do you also stop staff from internal comparisons on "who makes what" and the judgemental behaviour that is often associated with those conversations.

Not that I am disputing your question or its basis, I just wonder why the type of information you are seeking would ever be considered as something a consumer or the general public would be entitled to. It's certainly not the case in my country.

Thanks

[CrashieJ]

Sean von Steinike, on 30 April 2014 - 11:30 PM, said:

Red Orchestra 2/Rising storm has player created maps. They even hold contests for them.

I got that game free via the Steam 24hour Giveaway... I want to make maps for them...