81 replies to this topic

[Neograf]

Roadbeer, on 26 April 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

[Citation Needed]

That's quite the extensive poll you've compiled in your 3 weeks as a registered member.

Discussion should have stopped with this post

[Ryche]

Roadbeer, on 26 April 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

[Citation Needed]

That's quite the extensive poll you've compiled in your 3 weeks as a registered member.

Meh the easiest poll is to see how many more ECM mechs have been introduced since it came out. If it was balanced they would add more. Like the Firestarter S variant that should be able to equip it per Sarna.

[Prezimonto]

Livewyr, on 26 April 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...y-minus-8-days/

I think I did a fairly good job of being unbiased. Lemme know if I need to change some wording.

WTF, the poll got locked?

I don't understand the reasoning, really, since there's no OTHER place to put polls of that sort.

[Livewyr]

Prezimonto, on 27 April 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

WTF, the poll got locked?

I don't understand the reasoning, really, since there's no OTHER place to put polls of that sort.

Well.. the easiest logic to chase is: Polls are a center for clear illustration of player-base opinion of current game aspects (mechanics included.) PGIGP marketing doesn't like the idea of a clear player-base approval/disapproval rating.. it's much easier to muddy the results of a thread discussing it. "Players are split on it, and that's balance, we like that." (Even if the split is 75/25...)

[Livewyr]

Neograf, on 27 April 2014 - 02:40 AM, said:

Discussion should have stopped with this post

It might have, then I posted this:

Livewyr, on 26 April 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...age__mode__show
http://mwomercs.com/...age__mode__show
http://mwomercs.com/...oll-update-ecm/ (200+ responses)
http://mwomercs.com/...age__mode__show (indirect, but a view on balance compared to other mechs)
http://mwomercs.com/...age__mode__show (poll taken on ECM introduction)
http://mwomercs.com/...age__mode__show (again, indirect, but still indicative)

http://mwomercs.com/...n-ecm-feedback/ (not a poll, but feel free to take a gander at some of the posts..get a good sample)


And this one:
http://mwomercs.com/...ture-aftermath/
That poll has over 1000 responses to it..

(little bit of research seems to show polls putting "ECM is OP/lessfun/needs nerf" at a majority, the bigger the sample, the wider the gap.)

Incidentally- in my search of Forum polls.. I found some pro ECM threads, but never any pro-ECM polls. Perhaps someone can find some?

Then, when those were seen as outdated.. there was this

Livewyr, on 26 April 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...y-minus-8-days/

I think I did a fairly good job of being unbiased. Lemme know if I need to change some wording.

Which of course was locked because it wasn't a "new" feature suggestion...

Edited by Livewyr, 27 April 2014 - 11:03 AM.

[Lykaon]

Roadbeer, on 26 April 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

/sigh

TAG, NARC, UAV all are effective counters (as well as PPC blasts to a lesser extent). ECM is only equipable on 5 of the what. over 130 variants available? and only effects LRMs and SSRMs.
Those who know how to effectively use LRMs and aren't just button mashing see it as a nuisance, not a problem, and no more of a nuisance than when your opponent uses cover effectively.

ECM blobs are great fun for Arty/Air strikes and watching them scurry outside the bubble like turning a light on roaches and letting the LURMERS have at it.

In short, your thread is much ado about nothing.

Yeah heard this before,I can and will counter every regurgatated "ECM is OK" excuse and from a solid argument of "it's crap mechanics and bad game design"

TAG, uses a weapon hardpoint therefore reduces potential build flexability and damage dealing options.There is a clear disadvantage to taking the TAG so most players don't unless they are using missiles.

TAG also requires active use,you must maintain a line of sight to a target (this obviously places you in a possition to be fired upon) TAG also has the lovely side effect of literally laser pointing your location to anyone looking in your direction (quick tip toggle to thermal if you suspect a TAG is in use)

TAG also DOES NOT COUNTER ECM! if you TAG a mech with ECM the only thing you have done is allowed that TAG'ed mech to be targeted normaly and not suffer the -75% sensor range penalty.The ECM is still granting 100% of it's benifits to all friendlies within 180m of it.The ECM is still able to use it's counter mode,the ECM still jams Artemis and TAG.To reiterate TAG does F*ck all to stop an ECM from effecting other mechs with it's sensor debuff.
TAG mitigates one feature of many of ECM's bloated abilities.And best of all even while TAGing a mech with ECM that ECM can if it closes to 180m jam your TAG.

NARC,Also uses a weapon hardpoint so,also limits offensive build options,NARC requires the user to close to near pointblank range to employ it the NARC is ammo dependant and just like a TAG requires the user to activley take part in making the NARC function.NARC does nothing if it can't hit a target.The myopic range of a NARC is easily countered by remaining in close support with your ECM.The NARC user will need to close to 270m have line of sight and actually hit you,all the while you can hide under the skirts of assault mechs,this if done correctly will leave the enemy short a light mech and a NARC launcher.

Then there is the weight and space,2 crits 3 tons plus ammo space and mass one NARC w/ammo weighs as much as 3 ECMs.

UAV, well let's see...Module slot,40k c-bills per use,requires considerable GXP exspence,Can be shot down,is static after deployment,has a brief duration of functionality.Requires the deploying mech to be in a high risk location to be effective.

VS

ECM just works like magic don't even need to pay a lick of attention to it,is free after initial purchase,cost no module slot,no GXP has unlimited function duration.

Also,see a UAV shoot a UAV they pop like balloons or,you could just move away it's not like that UAV moves.

Only equipable on 5 mechs that also by and large are the best variants of those chassis even without ECM.If this was a real disadvantage then we would not see ECM as previlently as we do.So as long as ECM is taken to the field (and it is) it doesn't matter if only one mech had access to ECM it will be present and will still be a garbage game feature.

PPCs? yeah right,need to hit a target that is frequently a light mech moving at 140kph or more every 4 seconds and not miss or overheat to "counter" the ECM. Very situational not reliable in any way.

Only effects LRMs and Streaks? really? so,ECM does not reduce sensor ranges by -75% (down to a mere 25% of normal functional range making sensor modules less useful for advancing sensors than taking an ECM) ECM does not jam Artemis and TAG?ECM does not by it's incredible anti missile capabilities vastly reduce the need for OTHER mechs to equip an AMS and it's potentially explosive ammo? (it's free space for 2 tons more AC ammo for 11 other mechs)

Posters constantly say "well MK1 eyeballs and my autocannons/PPCs will fix em" it won't if you didn't see them coming on a flank out of LOS.It won't if the only person who did see them coming couldn't type fast enough to warn you.

Even if you "see" a mech you will not "know" the mech.You will not know if it is damaged,what it's loaded out with (can't adapt tactics to counter what you don't know) Other friendlies without direct LOS do not know it's facing or heading (even if they know a mech is there they will not know the best means to manuver to intercept or engage) Not having data shared reduces reaction speed or even the ability to react apropriatley.

No one with any degree of basic tactical understanding will say these effects are not advantagious and an asset contributing to a victory.

ECM blobs are a result of poor understanding of how to apply ECM effectivley.These are bads you won't need a blob to take advantage of they are already displaying poor strategic sense.

Effectivley using LURMs? you mean pay the ECM tax? Must have a BAP or an ECM mech can just stand behind me and screw my multi decaton weapon payload.Must have a TAG because if my target is under ECM my BAP with it's 120m counter range won't even reach beyond LURM min range.

And even after paying in full ECM still has the effect of shaving a quarter of a kilometer off my LRM max range (TAG 750m LRM 1000m 25% range lost) ECM still does something benificial even when "countered" by a TAG and a BAP.

Also,all you need is a second ECM and my 30+ ton LRM launchers and ammo are wasted space.3 tons to remove 30 is a great ratio.

If ECM needs all these counters and these counters are still half baked and annoying to employ then maybe ECM is a junk mechanics that instead of co-opting all of the other support electronics as counters maybe we should have expected the Devs to actually develop an information warfare system that included support electronics that were taken by their own merits of function rather than as an ECM countermeasure.

[Lykaon]

Iqfish, on 26 April 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

I'm sorry but where is the problem with ECM?

Like Roadbeer said, you have lot's of effective counters and - how should it work, if not like right now?

How should ECM work?

Well if we had fully developed support electronics to begin with ECM would not need to be a sledge hammer as it is now.

Examples:

Beagle Active Probe: Detects any shut down mech within it's detection range.Increases max sensor range by X%.reduces critical data aquisition by X%.Allows a mech equiped with the BAP to detect any enemy located in the forward arc and within BAP range regardless of normal line of sight.

(this makes BAP and Active Probe.You can detect hidden enemies but you must be close to them and facing them (BAP does not detect hidden mechs that are not in the front arc thus a pilot needs to ACTIVLEY scan not simply run by)

Command Console: Allows a Lance or company commander to mark waypoints (visable on the recieving mech's HUD) for critical mission actions like move to location,defend location,recon location.The Command Console also allows a commander to mark enemy mechs as priority targets by displaying an icon overloay on the HUD visable to all mech friendly to the commander.Command Consoles may request an air/artillery strike using the console equiped mech as the spotter.

Seismic sensors Requires a BAP to be used to function as long as the BAP is functioning the seismic sensor can detect ground vibrations within X meters in a 360 degree arc.If the BAP is disabled the Seismic sensor is also disabled.

(other modules can be linked to support electronics to gain full functionality this allows for futer and further development to occur)

TAG, Marks a targeted mech with a special icon visable to all mechs friendly to the tag user.LRMs fired indirectly at this mech have a tighter spread.Firing LRMs indirectly without the use of a TAG causes the missile volley to have a dispursed spread reducing the number of missiles that will strike.

(LRMs are effectivley only usefull as suppression artillery without a TAG when used as indirect fire weapons.This encourages role warfare (need spotters with TAG) and discourages indirect fire LURM spam (not real effective for killing)

Artemis: Decreases missile lock time by X%.

NARC: fires a beacon that attaches it's self to the target and transmits that target's location and critical data to all mechs friendly to the NARC launcher and within X meters of the beacon.The Beacon has an unlimited duration of function and allows indirect LRM fire with the same benifits of a TAG (non sttacking effect)

ECM: Reduces the detection range of the mech it is equiped on by 50% (enhancment module brings it back up to 75% note the sensor "cloak" no longer projects 180m) Increases the time to aquire a missile lock by X% 180m radious.Increases the time to aquire critical data by X% 180m radious.

Prevents the following electronics from functioning when within 180m of the ECM:TAG,NARC,BAP,Artemis,Command Console.
ECM can be toggled to counter mode when done this removes the effects of all enemy ECM within 180m of the countering unit.


Sensor ghosting module: requires and ECM to function.One use limited duration consumable.When used the ECM produces a false sensor ID of a mech currently within the ECM range.This ghost will persist for X seconds.And will appear to sensors to be an exact copy of the originating mech.Note if true LOS is maintained no "ghost" mech will be visable it is only a sensor spoof.

ECM sensor jaming module: one use consumable limited duration.Allows the ECM to project a jamming field with a 180m radious all mechs under this field will not be detected by sensors until they are under X% of max sensor range.(pretty much a consumable sensor cloak that functions like ECM does now)


Now with potent and useful support electronics there is a desire to use them because they are actually good.Because these support electronics are now very useful there is a need to mitigate their effects so now ECM is usefull as a countermeasure to electronics and not the opposite where everything is a counter to ECM.

Edited by Lykaon, 27 April 2014 - 10:46 AM.

[Flaming oblivion]

I was furious when I saw the poll had been locked, then I remembered everything I read about PGI, And was sort of grateful the amount of money and activity that post of his will of scared away , "The results of this poll are not going the way we would prefer so were going to come up with a excuse to close it , even though its a issue bothering most of the player base"
Early indications was confirming I was right the ones not a lot to go off but not my fault the mods closed it , It appears from how far that thread went the majority want it largely adjusting, which as I said is the feel I've been getting in game

[DocBach]

Flaming oblivion, on 27 April 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

I was furious when I saw the poll had been locked, then I remembered everything I read about PGI, And was sort of grateful the amount of money and activity that post of his will of scared away , "The results of this poll are not going the way we would prefer so were going to come up with a excuse to close it , even though its a issue bothering most of the player base"
Early indications was confirming I was right the ones not a lot to go off but not my fault the mods closed it , It appears from how far that thread went the majority want it largely adjusting, which as I said is the feel I've been getting in game

The original ECM poll from December 2012 had about 5,000 voters; the choices were

ECM makes the game much more enjoyable
ECM makes the game more enjoyable
ECM does not affect my enjoyment
ECM makes the game less enjoyable
ECM makes the game much less enjoyable

About 3,000 players voted that ECM made the game much less enjoyable, more than people who said that it did not affect the game, made it more enjoyable or much more enjoyable combined.

Now you are lucky to see a poll break 100 or so voters.

[Flaming oblivion]

Perhaps thats not because there aren't issues rather people have lost faith in them resolved. Why bother voicing you distaste if you know nothing will be done, Just put up with clearly broken aspects till you get that frustrated you just leave having spent 0 and go give another game your time and if its in good state your money.

[Khobai]

Quote

First Premades and now ECM

What do you mean "now ECM"?

ECM has been complained about since it was added to the game. Because its outright overpowered for 1.5 tons.

[Livewyr]

DocBach, on 27 April 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

The original ECM poll from December 2012 had about 5,000 voters; the choices were

ECM makes the game much more enjoyable
ECM makes the game more enjoyable
ECM does not affect my enjoyment
ECM makes the game less enjoyable
ECM makes the game much less enjoyable

About 3,000 players voted that ECM made the game much less enjoyable, more than people who said that it did not affect the game, made it more enjoyable or much more enjoyable combined.

Now you are lucky to see a poll break 100 or so voters.

Yeah, you're lucky to see a poll last more than an hour now. (Only in Feature Suggestions, and only on "new" features, not current features.)

[Roosterfish]

ECM is so op'ed that 3 DDC's snuck up on me with their invisibility cloak on while I was in the bathroom and gave me a swirly yesterday.

[Flaming oblivion]

What's the most op thing about ecm in my opinion ? (not limited to this)

Lets start off with the fact that teams are PuGs

What does one have to do to use ecm and use it effectively ? Equip it and stay near they're team.


To counter ecm effectively? -Most counters are either rendered useless above a certain range, rendered useless if they have more then one ecmer , or require line of sight , which means the minute you counter assuming you can get into a position where you know you have back up and you don't get yourself obliterated achieving line of sight , they don't force you into retreat with concentrated fire . Most counters to ecm may be useful very rarely.

To counter ecm you either have to expose yourself to grave danger , or run the risk of if they have more then one ecm your counters worth nothing .

To use ecm you have to equip one item with no risk at all for a huge advantage , Its a no brainer if the enemie team has the counters meh the counters are highly situational so why worry huh ? , If they don't roflstomp , ggclose.

[Mystere]

Flaming oblivion, on 27 April 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

To counter ecm effectively?

So why not take your own advise and hunt them down?

I sure do and am a better player for doing so.

[Flaming oblivion]

because its usually sat in the middle of its team meaning getting close is suicide without a full on push from your team, long range weapons are rendered useless if hes behind cover nothing works , You can only attempt to tag if your team makes a push unless one of them leaves the bubble and wanders off , But likely hood is there going to come at you in a wall meaning tag by all means but whilst your tagging locking and firing your missiles and trying to fall back , You've either lost two allies or your dead. Ecm gives you all the advantages with no risk. If you use it right and your team knows what its doing, Your chances of winning through ecm alone are far higher 1 item should never make so much difference to a battle.

[Prezimonto]

Livewyr, on 27 April 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

Well.. the easiest logic to chase is: Polls are a center for clear illustration of player-base opinion of current game aspects (mechanics included.) PGIGP marketing doesn't like the idea of a clear player-base approval/disapproval rating.. it's much easier to muddy the results of a thread discussing it. "Players are split on it, and that's balance, we like that." (Even if the split is 75/25...)

I've asked politely of moderation if a GenDis poll could be created by them in these situations if a reasonably unbiased question series and information block and be put together by the community.

Honestly, there's no real reason to refuse such a request, other than limiting access to the results.

[Abivard]

Remove ECM,
Remove the ability to target mechs above 300 M unless they are tagged.

Eliminate the ability to see mechs targeted by other players on the minimap unless mech is equipped with advanced targeting module.

Only display a triangle if mech is actively targeted by player.

ECM only negates target locks.

TAG negates ECM

TAG range is 1000M

TAG no longer requires an hardpoint.

Too much to hope for, too many have to have crutches in order to play.

[Graugger]

LRM boats be hating.

[Prezimonto]

Abivard, on 27 April 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

Remove ECM,
Remove the ability to target mechs above 300 M unless they are tagged.

Eliminate the ability to see mechs targeted by other players on the minimap unless mech is equipped with advanced targeting module.

Only display a triangle if mech is actively targeted by player.

ECM only negates target locks.

TAG negates ECM

TAG range is 1000M

TAG no longer requires an hardpoint.

Too much to hope for, too many have to have crutches in order to play.

How about this:
Give every mech a toggle for Passive vs Active sensors:

Passive sensors limit your ability to gather information about the enemy to 300m, but also conceals you from being targeted over 300m.

Active sensors work in a forward 60° arc from your mech, and push out to 1000m. You can detect or be detected by mechs within that range.

Beagle active probe pushes that forward arc out to +20% further past your normal active sensor limit and works in a complete circle instead of an arc. The down side is EVERYONE in that circle can see you(lock still need line of sight), and your triangle blips their radar. BAP should have an on/off toggle.

Advanced sensors modules work for passive in 2 ranks (350 and 400m over two ranks... and you can pick which to equip).
and active version which adds 100m and 200m respectively to your normal active sensor range.

ECM works by concealing active and passive sensors of all mechs within it's bubble, including your own. In trade, BAP will plot the edges of the ECM field on the map and share that information all mechs in range.

ECM also doubles time to lock for mechs with line of sight.
ECM also counters BAP without line of sight, negates the bonuses from TAG/NARC/Artemis.
ECM increases the spread of incoming missiles that aren't supported by a likewise amount... so it's always good soft counter to missiles between increase spread and longer time to lock.
ECM can be toggled on/off/counter (disrupts another ECM within range of your ECM but provides no other benefits).
ECM units do not stack.

Now we have an information gathering system that works for all mechs, is up gradable and doesn't need 4 counters.