46 replies to this topic

[Swinebeast]

Thanks Koniving, I don't have issues managing heat in the BH as stated in my other post, but it is "hot", it just feels the atlas and assaults in particular (my experience on others is only from facing them in battle) needs something to make them more viable other than as a tank, but I relalise there has to be balance, so more a thought or feeling than a technical point.
That said if my BH can run cooler all the better, can I build my setup so you could check it out and tell me how I could improve my heat?

Edit, here's the link Knoving:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6600a3d728f7623

Edited by Swinebeast, 27 April 2014 - 08:09 AM.

[Koniving]

Sure. Cooling all goes to how many heatsinks you have and how big your engine is. Typically assaults can carry the biggest engines and the most heatsinks; so they do have that going for them.

On heat...

Spoiler

One thing though compared to tabletop there's this and this. Essentially weapons (aside from missiles, PPCs, and Gauss Rifles) fired multiple times over a period of 10 seconds. The heat we generate per shot, was actually generated per firing cycle. Also remember the threshold there is 30, here it's 40 at minimum and over 100 at maximum (but you need frozen city or a clan mech to achieve that in MWO). Threshold only rises in this game and ultimately it is a problem that PGI refuses to see (instead, heat scale aka ghost heat was put to use so they don't lose that arcadey shoot 'em up feel that helps to attract younger players).

So nothing is supposed get as hot or fire as much as they do here. It's a weird and confusing statement, considering that weapons are too hot to fire together at the same time but we'd never get away with generating so much heat in tabletop. 9 ML at 3 heat each would bring you to 90% heat in TT before cooling kicks in.

Here, at 4 heat 9 ML without Heat Scale (ghost heat) would bring you to 90% heat if you had 10 SHS (40 threshold). You can kinda see why SHS is useless in this game in small numbers as the same 9 ML for 10 DHS only brings you to 72% before any cooling kicks in!. That just isn't right, because on TT it doesn't matter what you have; before the cooling kicks in you are always at 90% heat for 9 ML firing cycles used.

With 30 threshold and heat penalties -- even the ones MWO used to have -- no one would be able to fire a lot of weapons at the same time. 4 ML would instantly spike you to 53.33333% heat. Even with 10 DHS, you'd only be able to fire 4 ML 3 times in a row before shutting down on forest colony. But you'd suffer long before then. Apparently though that isn't "fun," even though it'd completely remove all the pinpoint issues we currently have in the game. With the current design it'd also push everyone to ACs since they were never done right.

Of course, if ML were done according to lore as well that wouldn't be the case. Instead there'd be two options. Either we fire once per ten second cycle or we fire multiple times, and the total times you fire over 10 seconds accumulates to 5 damage.

Edited by Koniving, 27 April 2014 - 08:31 AM.

[Koniving]

Isn't any real way to cool faster than to trade some material. Without going to an XL engine here's all I could do. I reallocated the armor a little bit to make for a half ton and shifted some armor forward. Most people are shooting from your front; if not then you're doing something wrong.

[Swinebeast]

Lol, ah, I see what you did....lol....that is an improvement.

Just for the record, my CT armour is usually 90, just forgot to change it in the build.

But that's a better compromise, 2 extra DHS for .5t of rear and leg armour and no AMS.

Also thanks for taking the time mate, it is genuinely appreciated.

[Koniving]

Leg armor and no AMS. The rear armor was just moved forward with no tonnage lost there. You put yourself at some slightly higher risk for LRMs but if you're running an Atlas then when intelligent people are playing they will stick around you and provide the AMS for you.

I personally run just a 320 engine; with the mech mastered it doesn't matter so much and the free tonnage allows me to stash in the other extras too including two tags. One for each arm to make sure my shots will hit before I shoot. However, I've never used a 'fast' Atlas as I find it's an easy way to get myself slaughtered. (A fast Atlas tends to draw as much or more attention than an Atlas with an AC/20 and 3 SRM-6s).

Edited by Koniving, 27 April 2014 - 08:55 AM.

[Swinebeast]

320 with standard structure right? I can make up for the 2 less DHS in the engine with body slots and still enough room for tags.

Nice, that's also a better build (atlas is slow even with the 350), and could pack the AMS instead of the Tags if required.

Thanks again Koniving!

[Redshift2k5]

sneeking, on 26 April 2014 - 11:36 PM, said:

its useless for anything els in my opinion.

surprisingly, both thermal and night vision often do very little on river city night, but you'd be surprised how well thermal works on forest colony! The gloom on forest colony makes things surprisingly murky at certain ranges and certain settings. Night vision can help on Terra Therma, but the actual night map, not so much

[Modo44]

Koniving, on 27 April 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Without going to an XL engine here's all I could do.

I think this calls for medium lasers. Ditch Endo Steel, dowgrade the engine, add a gun for some range with more burst and sustained DPS: 2xLPL+4xML+AC5/UAC5, STD325. To use a UAC5 (even higher burst DPS), drop some leg and arm armor.

[Koniving]

There is that. Arm weapons change from 42.4 to 41.2 at a reduced heat of 2 but with it all being able to alpha in a single strike. Loses significant range for optimum efficiency though. The AC/5 gives you longer range. Downfall is it also makes the "attack location" unanimous among all who are fighting you; your right side MUST go down first so you've magnetized fire to that side.

With a perfectly aligned shot at 270 meters or less, that's a punch of 46.2 damage for 34 heat with a threshold of 78.48 (mastered) and a cooling rate of 4.071/sec. Nasty stuff that if I were balancing the game wouldn't be possible.
Just hope you don't get a vertical fight.

[Clownwarlord]

I have noticed on Frozen City last time I played it showed all black everything black and the enemy mech was white. You couldn't see the slopes, the buildings, nothing except the white mechs floating on your screen. So I turned it off and tried to do without.

[Swinebeast]

I see the engine downgrading and standard structure is a the best way to go on the atlas, probably most heavy assaults.
Anyone try the other way with big standards or xls? Does the size negate the speed increase?

[Koniving]

Swinebeast, on 27 April 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Thanks again Koniving!

4 LPL Boar's Head today. Been getting 500 average per match but this one went particularly well. Not sure what the first kill was but the ones after were: I remember now the first one was a Jenner, then Jagermech, Catapult, and Atlas D-DC that I physically see and Arnold had to point it out to me despite it being 300 meters in front of me.

Turns out I have a 310, 2 tags. Max armor.
Pure Titanium White on all 3 paints; so I was bright and obvious.

Btw you're welcome.

Edited by Koniving, 27 April 2014 - 05:35 PM.

[Swinebeast]

Mate, nice stats, ok, will try the 310.

100k off the DDC at the moment.....actually no I have enough!...lol...man parting with10mill is gunna hurt.

[Koniving]

Use the 320 for a while first. Nothing wrong with it when you have one. I just kinda sold...like 99% of my more unused or rarely used engines. Made enough to buy 2 banshees and a medium and fully deck them out (about 23,000,000 cbills). Which kinda included my 320s and 340s.

Edited by Koniving, 27 April 2014 - 05:52 PM.

[White Bear 84]

Koniving, on 26 April 2014 - 09:28 PM, said:

What I'd like to see is thermal actually take heat into account.

If it's "white hot," then why is the snow white? It should be black.

I'd also like to see Night vision take light into account.
It ignores many light sources.
Areas brightly illuminated in River city without the night vision are blandly dim with it. Yet areas that are 'dark' without night vision are obscenely bright. Sorry, but night vision amplifies light. It should not amplify darkness.

Spot on. There are only 2 situations where I would use night vision/heat vision & two special cases;

Night vision - River city night; although the 'limited range' is somewhat annoying (that nice black wall you hit)
Heat vision - Frozen city during the blizzard

Special cases;
H/N - In the cave in forest colony
N - In caustic crater.. ..because apparently the night vision see's through smoke

I would love to see it improved, in fact I have always wondered if the heat signature of mechs increases as their heat level increases?

Agree 100% with Koniving on the heat/night though. Frozen city sure does provide a lot of heat for sub zero temperatures...

I also wonder why the vision modes do not have a sensitivity adjustment*.. ..i mean its 3050.. ..if the response is too bright, surely the mechs computational matrix can accommodate for this, reducing exposure and providing a more reliable signature. Anyone who has ever used a camera will know the effect of reducing exposure and what not!

*Another thing to point out in this regards is in terra therma - why does the lava and surrounds have a similar heat signature - clearly the flowing/liquid lava is significantly hotter than the surrounding ground.. ..just a thought.

[FireSlade]

Swinebeast, on 27 April 2014 - 04:30 AM, said:

I'm certainly not an expert at MWO but it certainly feels like an Atlas should at least have some sort of heat advantage to offset it's bulk and speed (not talking ECM). A great pilot will be able to make the best of any chassis but it should be inherently the king of the battlefield. In my FB I fear lights and heavies a lot more than assaults, they cant really hurt me anymore than a heavy at a distance and I can round them up light style in close combat. I just think, "juicy target".
I suppose what I'm saying is they should be a lot more useful than just tanking. Remove ghost heat and balance elsewhere maybe?

That is because you have not seen an Annihilator or King Crab. The former comes stock with quad LB 10Xs and quad medium pulse lasers and the later comes with twin AC20s, LRM 15, and an large laser. Both are slow but if PGI ever adds them in game they will have to take a look at how they handle pin point damage.

[Koniving]

I won't go so far as a sensitivity adjustment.
(The following is a "how I believe it should work but doesn't.")
But for example on Frozen City if you haven't built up any heat signature at all, you should be relatively 'black' on thermals until you start firing and glowing. Back in the color-days that'd be blue. Which means in the colored version the snow should be blue too (problem solved!), and as they heat up they begin changing colors or in our new case with white-hot thermals increasingly white.

Bits of 'white' auras and blur should appear around light of most if not all sources. And particularly cool areas that reduce a mech's temperature should allow the mech to 'fade away' thermally. Especially when powered off.

For night vision I'd like it to really take all lights into account especially on max settings. That way it'd look much more dynamic and easier on the eyes as well. (Personally I love blue and orange night vision; green hurts my eyes and truth be told I liked the original B/W NV in closed beta).

Edited by Koniving, 27 April 2014 - 06:10 PM.

[Swinebeast]

Purchase complete, tho as expected 2mill needed for DHS and ECM, should have enough pointy bits to kit it out from spending on the BH working out what works (including unnecessary 2 structure swaps!).

Yeah would be nice to have realistic vision modes, light/heat maybe even scope effects, maybe the 3050 heat shielding is in effect at range?
Big problem with the Abrams gas turbine engine against modern FLIR , mechs would probably have fixed heat signature to some extent, tho I highly doubt that's our mech vision problems.
Thinking about it further, the range/functionality is probably deliberately nerfed as per the previously stated predator mode, not sure if I would like to play using either mode for long. But I'm sure there could be a happy medium somewhere. At least work correctly at the current range.
I'm slightly annoyed at having to play in dx9 just for the thermal to work at all, wouldn't mind a fix.

Ok, bring on the King Crab and the Annihilator, tho I'm still disappointed there is no Urbie.

Edited by Swinebeast, 27 April 2014 - 06:34 PM.

[Swinebeast]

Koniving, on 27 April 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

I won't go so far as a sensitivity adjustment.
(The following is a "how I believe it should work but doesn't.")
But for example on Frozen City if you haven't built up any heat signature at all, you should be relatively 'black' on thermals until you start firing and glowing. Back in the color-days that'd be blue. Which means in the colored version the snow should be blue too (problem solved!), and as they heat up they begin changing colors or in our new case with white-hot thermals increasingly white.

Bits of 'white' auras and blur should appear around light of most if not all sources. And particularly cool areas that reduce a mech's temperature should allow the mech to 'fade away' thermally. Especially when powered off.

For night vision I'd like it to really take all lights into account especially on max settings. That way it'd look much more dynamic and easier on the eyes as well. (Personally I love blue and orange night vision; green hurts my eyes and truth be told I liked the original B/W NV in closed beta).

That's spot on, I like the heat build up thought.

Edit, that would be a great range compromise too, having the enemy firing or building up heat before showing at range.

Edited by Swinebeast, 27 April 2014 - 06:44 PM.

[FireSlade]

Swinebeast, on 27 April 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Purchase complete, tho as expected 2mill needed for DHS and ECM, should have enough pointy bits to kit it out from spending on the BH working out what works (including unnecessary 2 structure swaps!).

Yeah would be nice to have realistic vision modes, light/heat maybe even scope effects, maybe the 3050 heat shielding is in effect at range?
Big problem with the Abrams gas turbine engine against modern FLIR , mechs would probably have fixed heat signature to some extent, tho I highly doubt that's our mech vision problems.
Thinking about it further, the range/functionality is probably deliberately nerfed as per the previously stated predator mode, not sure if I would like to play using either mode for long. But I'm sure there could be a happy medium somewhere. At least work correctly at the current range.
I'm slightly annoyed at having to play in dx9 just for the thermal to work at all, wouldn't mind a fix.

Ok, bring on the King Crab and the Annihilator, tho I'm still disappointed there is no Urbie.

The reason why therm and NV do not work at range is because people were using them to snipe giving them an advantage. So when they went to the gray scale and green NV PGI put a 750 meter range limit on them to make sniping useless pass those ranges. I still find running with just the regular vision to be the best all around.

A lot of people are disappointing by not seeing the Urbie. But with less than a 100 engine and it being painfully slow in a game dominated by pinpoint accuracy, I doubt we will ever see it.