517 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Fut, on 01 May 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

I personally think that the other modules are more useful than the Strikes, so that is the choice people must make.
"Easy damage" or something that will improve performance over all.

Arty isn't about damage, though. It is about calling someone's hand.

Say you're playing poker versus some friends... You have managed to accumulate far more in winnings than others at the table. You have a bad hand and you know it. You don't know if the other players do, though. So you raise the bet so high it forces the other guys to decide:
a. Go all in. If they lose, they're out.
b. Fold. Give up what chips they put into the pot and wait for the next hand.

You force them to take action rather than rest on what they have. For all you know, they could have four aces of a kind to your two threes. They don't know that. But what they do know is you can put them out of business fast with your fat wallet.

Arty is just that. It isn't about the damage. It is about forcing the enemy to take an action that is uncomfortable to them that might also be disadvantageous.

Almond Brown, on 01 May 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

If a player "panics" and run out into the open from a area of protection, then they deserve the added injury added to their personally generated insult.

See the reply in this post it will be merged with.

[Fut]

Mister Blastman, on 01 May 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

Arty is just that. It isn't about the damage. It is about forcing the enemy to take an action that is uncomfortable to them that might also be disadvantageous.

This is very true. I was just trying to simplify things in my message.

Really though, you don't have to allow the Strikes to force you into anything. Just remain calm, get out of the blast radius, and wait for the shelling to stop.
I've been heavily damaged by the Strikes numerous times, I've yet to be destroyed by one.

It's (somewhat) the same thing as the LRM complaints.
LRMs can be used very effectively to corral your enemies into certain areas, or to deny them access to other areas - but this really only works well on people who loose their cool easily.

Edited by Fut, 01 May 2014 - 10:32 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Fut, on 01 May 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

It's (somewhat) the same thing as the LRM complaints.
LRMs can be used very effectively to corral your enemies into certain areas, or to deny them access to other areas - but this really only works well on people who loose their cool easily.

Problem here is once again...what does it take to use a Strike?

Using LRM's properly takes a major investment in your mech.

Using a Strike just means you don't take one of the many fairly crappy module options available.

Strikes are way too good in comparison to every other module that you'd use in place of them.

And you can't make every other module just as good as Strikes, it would require things like overpowered Seismic being put back into the game.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mister Blastman, on 01 May 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

Arty isn't about damage, though. It is about calling someone's hand.

Say you're playing poker versus some friends... You have managed to accumulate far more in winnings than others at the table. You have a bad hand and you know it. You don't know if the other players do, though. So you raise the bet so high it forces the other guys to decide:
a. Go all in. If they lose, they're out.
b. Fold. Give up what chips they put into the pot and wait for the next hand.

You force them to take action rather than rest on what they have. For all you know, they could have four aces of a kind to your two threes. They don't know that. But what they do know is you can put them out of business fast with your fat wallet.

During training in Oki we were "Assaulting a fortified position" Our Sgt was yelling a screaming like a good NCO does.

"Get yer sorry ******* Ashes Up that hill You slackers!"

"Whats' up there again?"

"Ummm a Machine gun Bunker."

"**** that, call in an air strike or some arty to soften ******* up before we move! Are you trying to get us killed?"

" ... Get yer ash in front Mallan NOW!"

True story. You have no idea how much trouble I got into cause I thought more than was good for me!

[Fut]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 01 May 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

Problem here is once again...what does it take to use a Strike?

Using LRM's properly takes a major investment in your mech.

Using a Strike just means you don't take one of the many fairly crappy module options available.

Strikes are way too good in comparison to every other module that you'd use in place of them.

And you can't make every other module just as good as Strikes, it would require things like overpowered Seismic being put back into the game.

That's what I said it was "somewhat" like the LRM thing...

Anyhow, suppose I just don't see them being as powerful as other people on the boards.
I'd much rather have other modules onboard than either of the strikes.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 01 May 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

Problem here is once again...what does it take to use a Strike?

Using LRM's properly takes a major investment in your mech.

Using a Strike just means you don't take one of the many fairly crappy module options available.

Strikes are way too good in comparison to every other module that you'd use in place of them.

And you can't make every other module just as good as Strikes, it would require things like overpowered Seismic being put back into the game.

In the field... it takes a phone call. We don't carry arty with us, we do not have to take care of it. We use a radio, call for delivery and tip the cocker when its over.

Battalion handles Arty not the Company or Platoon.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 01 May 2014 - 10:39 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Joseph Mallan, on 01 May 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

True story. You have no idea how much trouble I got into cause I thought more than was good for me!

Haha! I bet you never gave him crap again!

[Joseph Mallan]

Mister Blastman, on 01 May 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Haha! I bet you never gave him crap again!

You'd lose that Bet. I was a very very strong man when I got out of the Corps!

[Ultimax]

Joseph Mallan, on 01 May 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

In the field... it takes a phone call. We don't carry arty with us, we do not have to take care of it. We use a radio, call for delivery and tip the cocker when its over.

Battalion handles Arty not the Company or Platoon.

So you don't give each guy in a squad their own personal arty/air strike remote controls?

[-Natural Selection-]

Joseph Mallan, on 01 May 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

In the field... it takes a phone call. We don't carry arty with us, we do not have to take care of it. We use a radio, call for delivery and tip the cocker when its over.

Battalion handles Arty not the Company or Platoon.

They called "this guy" MLRS field Artillery "grid smashers" You call in an order and you get delivery with a Damn I miss dropping big bombs on small countries...

[Joseph Mallan]

Ultimatum X, on 01 May 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

So you don't give each guy in a squad their own personal arty/air strike remote controls?

Nope. We let the radio man(One per company or platoon sometimes) use his PRC to call in a strike. Announce fire for effect... a few minutes later he'd tell the battery all clear. A Lot more rounds than we use I can tell you!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 01 May 2014 - 10:58 AM.

[RussianWolf]

Joseph Mallan, on 01 May 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

In the field... it takes a phone call. We don't carry arty with us, we do not have to take care of it. We use a radio, call for delivery and tip the cocker when its over.

Battalion handles Arty not the Company or Platoon.

But Joe, what we have is like every Soldier being able to make that call twice, whereas in the field, only a few can make the call.

(I remember getting chewed out royally for "thinking" also and I was a linguist. "Aren't I supposed to think")

[Almond Brown]

How about a compromise. Let's say we make the Arty/Air damage be set to 30 max. Now no more Head shots or instagibs right? Nope. Despite advice to the contrary, many brave/foolish MechWarriors shave armor off their Head in order to better facilitate the addition of more damaging components.

So do we set the max allowed shaved to 3 points to prevent the instagib, or do we ask/assume what the average reduction is expected to be (if you don't reduce you're golden btw) and make the module damage based on that. So maybe 25, that sets the allowed Head points to be removes at 15 points.

Pick any number, (above 10 as we know they SUCK at 10) but the use of a K.I.S.S. based entry would be best for all involved.

Ultimatum X, on 01 May 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

I'm not worried about the damage it deals, or the area denial.

My concern is the opportunity cost.

I feel the opportunity cost is too low for this module.

I'd rather it was more restricted in its use (not it's damage), where it becomes more of a weighted choice and not such a simple choice.

That would appear to make it into a weapon as none of the Modules have weight...

P.S. 3.5t to use is way over the top as well.

[Joseph Mallan]

RussianWolf, on 01 May 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

But Joe, what we have is like every Soldier being able to make that call twice, whereas in the field, only a few can make the call.

(I remember getting chewed out royally for "thinking" also and I was a linguist. "Aren't I supposed to think")

One company X salvos... Would it be different if Only BOB called in 12-24 strikes?
If that were the case we would have 12 salvos repeatedly for up to 5 minutes or more. What we have here is a(very) Limited Artillery response.

As to your second question... No. You are supposed to talk! (Military logic sir!)

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 01 May 2014 - 11:07 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Almond Brown, on 01 May 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

How about a compromise.

I'm more than happy to compromise. There is always a middle ground. But to blanket pretend their isn't an issue that needs to be resolved, that is silly.

Personally I'd just remove the ability to do head damage via Strikes.

Then we aren't sitting here worrying about specific numbers and can focus on how to make them a good optional module if people want to go the consumable route.

[MischiefSC]

Look, adding tag/command console to the need of the module is too much of a nerf.

Extend the cooldown between launches.

I'd say give each team its own launch delay of 30 or 40 seconds. This prevents the 'I have to drop an Arty so they can't' goofiness and helps promote using arty/airstrikes as a tactical device and not 'I have to spam so they don't'.

Reduce splash a bit. Not a lot, but a bit.

Don't let someone pack arty AND airstrike. One or the other, you get 1 per match.

I'd call that good. Still valuable but more situational - like modules should be.

[3rdworld]

Joseph Mallan, on 01 May 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

In the field... it takes a phone call. We don't carry arty with us, we do not have to take care of it. We use a radio, call for delivery and tip the cocker when its over.

Battalion handles Arty not the Company or Platoon.

Cool story and all, but please explain how this is pertinent to the balance of a robot video game?

Edited by 3rdworld, 01 May 2014 - 01:31 PM.

[Jonathan Paine]

To all lovers of the "point, press button and pray for a killing headshot" strikes; why stop there? Why not include tactical nukes and just increase the c-bill cost appropriately? Nukes are described in the lore, and I have lots of c-bills to literally burn.

Of course, according the more than 20 books covering up to 3056, few if any mercenary bands had any access to artillery strikes whatsoever and no air strike was ever delivered without the potential cost of precious aerospace fighters. Furthermore, the biggest piece of conventional artillery according to SARNA, was the Long Tom. Damage? 25/15/5.

So yeah, either give up on a robot game, turn into artillery warrior online - or turn artillery into a limited, controlled weapon that does not one shot Assault mechs.

[Kyle Wright]

I rather like the command console idea and how about maybe actually using the unimportant battlegrid map to drop them. Instead of LOS you go off a grid some gives you or last radar signal you spotted.

[Joseph Mallan]

3rdworld, on 01 May 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

Cool story and all, but please explain how this is pertinent to the balance of a robot video game?

Do you want to see us get something more like Real Arty? Our arty in this game is a joke by comparison. The complaint against arty is the same as always, Billy bring 2 Arty and does OK, Joey brings 10 and the sky is falling. One AC20 is fine a 4man of Jager40s is overkill to some players. The point of this game is conquest. The objective is for me to kill you and take your stuff. To do that and to minimize MY losses You bet your keyboard I want to overwhelm you and never give you the chance to fight back. I assume (at my own risk) That is why everyone is here. To kill "the Bad guy" and liberate his things!

As such if You bring 24 ArtStrikes You are playing to win, and that is fine by me, I win or lose by my choices compared to yours. If I didn't plan and execute properly, I have earned my beating. How come so many cannot accept that fact?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 02 May 2014 - 04:36 AM.