517 replies to this topic

[Craig Steele]

3rdworld, on 28 April 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

If you just want to be purposefully ignorant or simply hyperbolic that is fine. But pretending you are making a valid point is ridiculous.

My statement is 30% of a heavy mech. My CTF runs 376 armor. It takes 178 damage to = 30% of my life or 6 alphas. Now either make an honest statement for the purpose of furthering the discussion, or keep trolling. I don't give a shit.

Actually I was using humour to demonstrate to you how lopsided your argument is, sorry if it was too subtle for you.

I'll be blunt.

Artillery is not OP. It takes the same skill set to hold the cross hairs over a mech and press Boom Jager alpha or artillery strike.

The only difference is you get one artillery strike and multiple ammo rounds.

The net result for both applications is the same, a mech of virtually any size wrecked or hors de combat (hiding).

Both have the same chances of evasion (arguable it is easier to evade artillery as it is not instant) and the mechanic to do so is to move.

So if you are arguing this strongly for Artillery to be nerfed, you should also be very comfortable with one shot FLD Alpha's also being nerfed.

After all, its the same mechanic / outcome / mitigant, just a different cost to equip and number of times usage in game.

Edited by Craig Steele, 28 April 2014 - 06:54 AM.

[The Mechromancer]

Mr David, on 28 April 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

The most effective match with them was when we were down to 4 damaged mechs to the enemies 6 less damaged mechs on Crimson. I let an airstrike go and hit at least 4 mechs that were perfectly lined up behind a building. 3 seconds later 6 'component destroyed' messages pop up. No kills, but the damage was done. The group still managed to kill two more friendly mechs before me in an Ember and a teammate in a Dakka Banshee wiped them all out. I ended up with 6 kills, the teammate had 4. Had it not been for one airstrike, we would have certainly got stomped.

Somebody mentions me on the forum!

Today is a good day.

[MischiefSC]

Craig Steele, on 28 April 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

Wait, WHAT??? Can Highlanders not pop tart anymore? What about Victors?? No jump jets?? ShadowHawks? Phracts? Boom Jagers?

Is all FLD pin point & shoot Alphas stripping 30% + armour (or even coring some mechs in one shot) is gone from the game???

Or is this tomorrows patch?

Don't be silly.

Dropping arty is literally like getting to shoot about 2 or 3 tons of AC20 ammo at an area all at once, each round with splash damage so it can affect multiple people. If we don't want to nerf arty I want my PPC heat nerf back and I want my original seismic back. If you're going to say 'screw balance' then let's quit playing around and handle it that way. We can say it's 'being hardcore' by having a few significantly OPed items that dominate relative to their fellows.

This isn't unreasonable. Arty was fluff before. Then it got over-buffed. Now it needs dialed back a bit. It's happened with every weapon; especially those that are best balanced. Are you really saying that arty isn't an absurdly better choice to bring on any mech? That a one-shot 200-400 damage, maybe 600 to 1000 if you bring arty and airstrike and have a couple good opportunities... that's not out of scope relative to, say, extended range or 360 degree targeting? All modules are situational. You don't even get good use out of seismic in every match. The difference is that arty/airstrike regularly decide who wins a match, you put that on all 12 mechs on each side and it's the absolute deciding factor. Is the same true of any other modules?

[El Bandito]

I need to Artillery Strike the crap out of Paul, the next time we meet, so he will immediately run back to his office and tell everyone to nerf Arty.

Craig Steele, on 28 April 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

Actually I was using humour to demonstrate to you how lopsided your argument is, sorry if it was too subtle for you. I'll be blunt. Artillery is not OP. It takes the same skill set to hold the cross hairs over a mech and press Boom Jager alpha or artillery strike. The only difference is you get one artillery strike and multiple ammo rounds. The net result for both applications is the same, a mech of virtually any size wrecked or hors de combat (hiding). Both have the same chances of evasion (arguable it is easier to evade artillery as it is not instant) and the mechanic to do so is to move. So if you are arguing this strongly for Artillery to be nerfed, you should also be very comfortable with one shot FLD Alpha's also being nerfed. After all, its the same mechanic / outcome / mitigant, just a different cost to equip and number of times usage in game.

That's a terrible comparison. The Boom Jager will have heat issue after his 40 point alpha, while Artillery Strike will cost you nothing in the field. More than that, Boom Jager alpha needs to be within 270 meters to do full damage, opening itself to retaliation, while Artillery Strike range is virtually unlimited--you just need to have LOS.

Then there is the fact that the Boom Jager itself can field Artillery Strike.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 April 2014 - 07:02 AM.

[Craig Steele]

MischiefSC, on 28 April 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

Don't be silly.

Dropping arty is literally like getting to shoot about 2 or 3 tons of AC20 ammo at an area all at once, each round with splash damage so it can affect multiple people. If we don't want to nerf arty I want my PPC heat nerf back and I want my original seismic back. If you're going to say 'screw balance' then let's quit playing around and handle it that way. We can say it's 'being hardcore' by having a few significantly OPed items that dominate relative to their fellows.

This isn't unreasonable. Arty was fluff before. Then it got over-buffed. Now it needs dialed back a bit. It's happened with every weapon; especially those that are best balanced. Are you really saying that arty isn't an absurdly better choice to bring on any mech? That a one-shot 200-400 damage, maybe 600 to 1000 if you bring arty and airstrike and have a couple good opportunities... that's not out of scope relative to, say, extended range or 360 degree targeting? All modules are situational. You don't even get good use out of seismic in every match. The difference is that arty/airstrike regularly decide who wins a match, you put that on all 12 mechs on each side and it's the absolute deciding factor. Is the same true of any other modules?

And here is the key, it is a one shot weapon, and if you have the right opportunity and your enemy is clumped up and you place it on target and they don't scatter or evade, it can do a lot of damage.

But thats a lot of "Ands" and not all of them in your control.

Maybe I been lucky, I been softened up a few times by Artillery but I have never been killed by it, but I sure been cored by a few Boom Jagers.

I'm just saying its same same, so nerf both or nerf neither.

@ Elbandito, I have seen Boom Jagers shooting at (and hitting) targets at 700 meters. The published range is just a guide.

Edited by Craig Steele, 28 April 2014 - 07:02 AM.

[Mystere]

3rdworld, on 28 April 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

Has nothing to do with being an "e-sport", it is called being a fun game with an accurate skill curve. Besides that, PGI makes balance patches, so by your definition of balancing a game only for being an e-sport.

Nope. Again the difference is so subtle it is so easy to miss.

3rdworld, on 28 April 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

Than PGI is trying to make it into an e-sport and you better go ahead and jump ship now.

Well, I'm here to make sure that does not happen.

Edited by Mystere, 28 April 2014 - 06:59 AM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Kilo 40, on 28 April 2014 - 12:29 AM, said:

I have an idea...what about if the command console was what calls arty/air strikes? It would be more logical and would be a way to stop them from being over used.

feel free to rip that idea apart. I haven't thought long on it and arty is fine where it is for me.




I had the same thing happen to me, only it was from an AC40.

suck it up and deal.

HAHHAHHAHAHAHA
YOU THINK I"M COMPLAINING ABOUT HEADSHOTS.
BUT I"M NOT ! HAHA

If a guy with an AC/40 headshots I tell him "Good shot"
If a guy headshots me with a consumable he bought for 40k c-bills I say "wow.... that's dumb"
What did he do to earn that head shot? spend 40k cbills? oh wow. How impressive.

[3rdworld]

Craig Steele, on 28 April 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

Actually I was using humour to demonstrate to you how lopsided your argument is, sorry if it was too subtle for you.

I'll be blunt.

Artillery is not OP. It takes the same skill set to hold the cross hairs over a mech and press Boom Jager alpha or artillery strike.

The only difference is you get one artillery strike and multiple ammo rounds.

The net result for both applications is the same, a mech of virtually any size wrecked or hors de combat (hiding).

Both have the same chances of evasion (arguable it is easier to evade artillery as it is not instant) and the mechanic to do so is to move.

So if you are arguing this strongly for Artillery to be nerfed, you should also be very comfortable with one shot FLD Alpha's also being nerfed.

After all, its the same mechanic / outcome / mitigant, just a different cost to equip and number of times usage in game.

I never once commented on FLD damage. Ever.

And yes, I do think the PPCs + AC/s are OP. Right now I am hoping that the SRM buff / hit reg can exploit its weakness. If not, something else will need to be done.

Though they are no where near the same thing. A single arty can pull a fully armored leg off of an assault mech. There is no alpha in the game capable of that. And weapons all have a cost to equip, heat, tonnage, engines etc. Modules just have a # of slots. And it isn't much of a trade off when the consumables are by far the most powerful you can use.

Edited by 3rdworld, 28 April 2014 - 07:03 AM.

[El Bandito]

MoonUnitBeta, on 28 April 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

HAHHAHHAHAHAHA YOU THINK I"M COMPLAINING ABOUT HEADSHOTS. BUT I"M NOT ! HAHA If a guy with an AC/40 headshots I tell him "Good shot" If a guy headshots me with a consumable he bought for 40k c-bills I say "wow.... that's dumb" What did he do to earn that head shot? spend 40k cbills? oh wow. How impressive.

Yep. RNG Gods at work. Uncontrolled RNGs are traditionally bad for supposedly competitive game.

Now controlled RNG on the other hand should find a spot in MWO.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 April 2014 - 07:04 AM.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 28 April 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

The difference is that arty/airstrike regularly decide who wins a match ...

Show us hard irrefutable data. Demand that PGI release such info if you wish. Otherwise ...

Edited by Mystere, 28 April 2014 - 07:05 AM.

[El Bandito]

Craig Steele, on 28 April 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

@ Elbandito, I have seen Boom Jagers shooting at (and hitting) targets at 700 meters. The published range is just a guide.

At 700 meters, the AC20 damage is laughable. Might as well save the ammo. Meanwhile Artillery will do full damage regardless of range.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 April 2014 - 07:06 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 28 April 2014 - 07:05 AM, said:

At 700 meters, the AC20 amage is LAUGHABLE. Might as well save the ammo.

Its an Invitation to come play!

[Mystere]

MoonUnitBeta, on 28 April 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

If a guy headshots me with a consumable he bought for 40k c-bills I say "wow.... that's dumb"

That's dumb of you for not seeing the red smoke and not getting out in time.

[El Bandito]

Mystere, on 28 April 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

That's dumb of you for not seeing the red smoke and not getting out in time.

Don't be daft.

It does not take a genius to plant the strike behind the enemy. And 4 seconds is not enough to warn someone over chat and make him move out in time.

Plus the initial smoke column starts out so small, it is hard to notice in certain maps.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 April 2014 - 07:13 AM.

[3rdworld]

El Bandito, on 28 April 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

Don't be daft.

It does not take a genius to plant the strike behind the enemy. And 4 seconds is not enough time to warn someone over chat.

Remember, most of these guys play against trial mechs daily. Their views on what a good player would do may be skewed.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 28 April 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

Don't be daft.

It does not take a genius to plant the strike behind the enemy. And 4 seconds is not enough to warn someone over chat and make him move out in time.

Do you mean to tell me people rely solely on others for their situational awareness? People do not look around while standing or moving?

[MischiefSC]

Craig Steele, on 28 April 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

And here is the key, it is a one shot weapon, and if you have the right opportunity and your enemy is clumped up and you place it on target and they don't scatter or evade, it can do a lot of damage.

But thats a lot of "Ands" and not all of them in your control.

Maybe I been lucky, I been softened up a few times by Artillery but I have never been killed by it, but I sure been cored by a few Boom Jagers.

I'm just saying its same same, so nerf both or nerf neither.

@ Elbandito, I have seen Boom Jagers shooting at (and hitting) targets at 700 meters. The published range is just a guide.

I'm not joking at all when I say I've probably gotten 20 kills with arty/airstrike. A hundred component damages, easy. I couldn't count the number of matches where it's absolutely swayed the outcome. Run with arty/airstrike and get a bunch of practice in with it. It's easier to learn to deploy well than poptarting is. When the other team pushes or when they set up a defensive line, or when they try to hold a choke point. Terra Therma most places, defending against a tunnel rush on Forrest, holding the top of the dropship on Frozen, just about anywhere on Tourmaline (the whole place is full of choke points. If you can't get 400-600 per strike on Tourmaline you're doing it wrong), the two jagged points on each side of the caldera on Caustic (no lateral movement, it pins folks close together), that D3/D4 open area on City near the radio tower where people set up to defend or when they have to stick close to the radio tower when moving around the water side to rush in. Pick a map and I'll tell you the point to drop it when the other team pretty much has no choice but to group up to push or hold. Most the times I miss a good crushing deployment is because it's already being spammed by someone else.

I'm all for nerfing FLD. I've been a proponent of ACs doing damage over 0.2-0.5 seconds, PPCs doing 5 points like a laser over 0.4 seconds with a 5 point FLD hit at the end of it. So laser.... WHACK! I'd be happy with 5 points FLD and 5 points splash but I'm dubious about splash implementation being a good idea.

Arty needs a cluster or splash nerf, a small one. It also needs a big extension on cooldown. Still deadly, still useful, just not a viable alternative to bringing weapons.

I admit - I've largely quit using it. It's not very fun for me, same reason I sold every poptart I had or repurposed them. I'd rather have a lower win/loss kdr than have this rote same ol' same ol' experience.

Edited by MischiefSC, 28 April 2014 - 07:17 AM.

[3rdworld]

Mystere, on 28 April 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

Do you mean to tell me people rely solely on others for their situational awareness? People do not look around while standing or moving?

When you play against good players, it isn't as easy as just "move out of the way".

That is usually a great way to get shot to hell. Generally you see it coming. But if placed correctly with the right pressure you don't have many options.

Also anyone can dodge 1. Can you dodge 20?

Edited by 3rdworld, 28 April 2014 - 07:17 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Mystere, on 28 April 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

Do you mean to tell me people rely solely on others for their situational awareness? People do not look around while standing or moving?

Do you realize how disingenuous your arguments sound? Your exact same logic can be used to justify pre-heat nerf PPCs. It's peoples fault for standing in the open or not bringing PPCs. Your argument literally seems to be that any OP'ed gear is fine, you just need to be the one using it and not getting hit by it.

[Mystere]

3rdworld, on 28 April 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

Remember, most of these guys play against trial mechs daily. Their views on what a good player would do may be skewed.

Are you speaking from experience?

<See, it goes both ways. Or in other words, you're out of arguments.>