50 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

You can say you're a clanner when you're grown in a vat and banging your own sister like the twisted freaks the Clans are.

Until then, we're just IS scrubs playing with their mechs.

[Craig Steele]

El Bandito, on 29 April 2014 - 11:38 PM, said:

Your example is somewhat flawed.

1. Naga mech uses Arrow IV--a guided missile for a mech, as opposed to artillery shells. It is still mech on mech combat, albeit from extreme range.

2. Clan Wolf under Ulric (later Wolf in Exile under Phelan) can be considered an extreme exception to the rule, as they had changed their strategy to adapt to IS style of fighting--which emphasizes on as little attrition as possible on Tukayyd. None of the other invading clans used artillery in their major engagements against IS during the invasion years.

On fundamental level though, I do agree with you that artillery was widely available to Clan commanders, mostly in form of Warships orbiting above. The commanders did bid to include those warships just in case something really goes wrong. It's just that Clanners overran their IS foes so easily they never had the occasion to use artillery as contingency.

Arrow IV is classified as artillery in BTU, and has a missile that targets a hex with multi munitions. I personally don't see the distinction you make. In WW2, rockets were considered artillery by all users of those weapons and they are not dis similar. Sure the guided missile requires TAG and can target a specific target, but that was not the only missile type employed.

I don't know about your source for "none of the other Clans". Pg 64 of the Warriors of Kerensky Source book specifically says "Each Clan maintains its own fighting arm.... Support assets such as engineers, artillery, and MASH units are attached at the Galaxy level, but may be detached for operations with Clusters as needed" (my bold)

I'd submit that on the strength of this canon representation by Phelan Ward, that the other Invading Clans did indeed take Artillery with them to the Inner Sphere and where it was considered warranted by the Galaxy / Cluster commander, was deployed. It's hard to imagine a Clan Officer saying no to an asset that he needed to secure victory when it is sitting right there.

Ergo, if a Clan pilot of any Clan took an artillery module, that would be completely within canon. If he used it in a Zellebrignen confrontation thats a whole different kettle of fish, but deploying it is not something that is outside of Clan canon.

[Craig Steele]

MischiefSC, on 30 April 2014 - 12:23 AM, said:

You can say you're a clanner when you're grown in a vat and banging your own sister like the twisted freaks the Clans are.

Until then, we're just IS scrubs playing with their mechs.

Have you seen my sister?

[MischiefSC]

Craig Steele, on 30 April 2014 - 12:40 AM, said:

Have you seen my sister?

You put that on the t-ball stand for me. Here is the proper lists:

"Who hasn't."

"No, she's normally facing the other way."

"Why, she looking for her next paternity test?"

It's a long list.

I'm kidding, but come on. That was too easy.

Clanners though? Big fans of the wincest. A twisted, genetically mutated offshoot of humanity best pruned.

[Thunder Child]

Clans need a New Module to replace Artillery/Air Strike. They can bid to take the Warship Strike. OP?..... NAWH. What's OP about a couple of Naval Grade PPCs.

[Craig Steele]

MischiefSC, on 30 April 2014 - 12:49 AM, said:

You put that on the t-ball stand for me. Here is the proper lists:

"Who hasn't."

"No, she's normally facing the other way."

"Why, she looking for her next paternity test?"

It's a long list.

I'm kidding, but come on. That was too easy.

Clanners though? Big fans of the wincest. A twisted, genetically mutated offshoot of humanity best pruned.

LOL

I was expecting more, but it's early yet

[CCC Dober]

El Bandito, on 29 April 2014 - 11:38 PM, said:

Your example is somewhat flawed.

1. Naga mech uses Arrow IV--a guided missile for a mech, as opposed to artillery shells. It is still mech on mech combat, albeit from extreme range.
...

I believe you should check the sources better, before you make such remarks. One particular novel comes to mind here that details the exploits of Camacho's Caballeros (Close Quarters - Victor Milan). The same regiment uses a Catapult equipped with Arrow IV in combination with spotters in an urban environment.

Take a look

Spoiler

Quote

Cassie laughs out loud. "Diana, fire for effect."
"On the way, Cassie." Cool and confident in the cockpit of her hundred-ton 'Mech, Diana sometimes forgets to use call signs. It is appropriate that her style of warfare is to reach out and touch her foe from a distance that never lets her see him die. She could not withstand Cassie's style of war, where an enemy's lifeblood mingles with the dirt you and he have rolled in to form sticky, black, iron-smelling mud.
Diana's Arrow IV long-range missiles tear the sky as if it were a swatch of muslin.
...

The fire-mission-request indicator lit on her HUD. Somebody had tagged another attacking 'Mech with a Narc. It was Lieutenant JG Silas Garcia's turn to take the call in his Catapult. Almost at once the mission-request flashed green, indicating his Arrows were on the way.
Diana hoped no more calls would come in for a few seconds. It took time to shift the big artillery 'Mechs from one firing-position to the next. When things got hot and heavy they would be pinned in place, forced to fire continuously from the same location to support their distant friends. She said a brief prayer to the Virgin of Guadalupe to guide the Stalkers' aim in their duel with the Ghost artillery.

As you can see, neither the shooter, nor the target ever see each other, very much like artillery. And it is even spelt out if you have any doubt. Of course, that is not how the Clans define honorable combat, but the way the Arrow IV is used most effectively (beyond line of sight). LOS combat (read: honorable combat) is an option, but neither required nor recommended in case of Arrow IV. Furthermore, there are levels of honor and the lowest apply when the enemy "does not play by the rules". This is how the Clans are able to use artillery/Arrow IV without inhibitions or losing sleep over it.

Edited by CCC Dober, 30 April 2014 - 12:58 AM.

[Craig Steele]

CCC Dober, on 30 April 2014 - 12:57 AM, said:

Of course, that is not how the Clans define honorable combat...

It would be more accurate to describe it as how "some" Clans saw honourable combat.

For example, Clan Diamond Shark ".... consider zellbrigen a guideline for combat, not an absolute, unless an enemy officer invokes the right to challenge or singles out his Diamond Shark opposite" (pg 66 Warden Clans Source Book) which tells us this Clan at least only adopts Zellebrigen if it is requested by the enemy. They certainly do not consider themselves any less honourable for this practice.

On the other hand, Clan Goliath Scorpian "....can be boiled down to a simple concept, the artful defeat of one's opponent in honourable combat. Strongly tied to the idea of zellbrigen, most Scorpian warriors consider honour duels the epitome of the former Star Leagues military ethos." (pg 108 Warden Clan Source Book) reads as the complete opposite and the assumed style of combat in a confrontation is zellbrigen.

Horses for courses I guess?

[CCC Dober]

Craig Steele, on 30 April 2014 - 01:11 AM, said:

It would be more accurate to describe it as how "some" Clans saw honourable combat.

For example, Clan Diamond Shark ".... consider zellbrigen a guideline for combat, not an absolute, unless an enemy officer invokes the right to challenge or singles out his Diamond Shark opposite" (pg 66 Warden Clans Source Book) which tells us this Clan at least only adopts Zellebrigen if it is requested by the enemy. They certainly do not consider themselves any less honourable for this practice.

On the other hand, Clan Goliath Scorpian "....can be boiled down to a simple concept, the artful defeat of one's opponent in honourable combat. Strongly tied to the idea of zellbrigen, most Scorpian warriors consider honour duels the epitome of the former Star Leagues military ethos." (pg 108 Warden Clan Source Book) reads as the complete opposite and the assumed style of combat in a confrontation is zellbrigen.

Horses for courses I guess?

Well, it's true that the definition can be open to interpretation. Especially because there are several levels of honor. I was referring to the highest level in this case and took it for granted that we are all on the same page. Point taken. Anyway, the idea that somebody would want to deny the Clans access to artillery and airstrikes (for whatever reasons) is hopefully laid to rest.

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 29 April 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

Never heard of any Clan bidding artillery against IS in all of my BT history. They did bid warships early on (as artillery) but thanks to Phelan, that was gone early in the campaign.

However, the current artillery strike is so good, that without it, Clans are boned in mixed matches.

PGI is going to trample yet another piece of BT lore to make this game even. My proposal for artillery change is vindicated again.

Nothing stopping Clanners from bringing Arty and with holding it till we use it first.

[3rdworld]

Clans invasion reminds me of this episode of Game of Thrones.

Lysa tells Bronn after the fight is over "You don't fight with Honor!".

Bronn calmly looks down at the dead challenger and says: "No, but he did".

[CCC Dober]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 April 2014 - 05:19 AM, said:

Nothing stopping Clanners from bringing Arty and with holding it till we use it first.

Affirmative, oh most noble warrior of the bandit caste. And to guarantee that any misbehaviour on your side is reduced to a minimum, we have taken the liberty to place a few warships in orbit. Better safe than sorry, quiaff?

RP is gonna be great xD

[Craig Steele]

3rdworld, on 30 April 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Clans invasion reminds me of this episode of Game of Thrones.

Lysa tells Bronn after the fight is over "You don't fight with Honor!".

Bronn calmly looks down at the dead challenger and says: "No, but he did".

You know, one of my criticisms of the BT Universe is some of the cardboard cut out characters it has, especially some of the big names.

Bronn is also a carboard cut out, but I think he is great. He has great lines and deadpan delivery.

[Joseph Mallan]

CCC Dober, on 30 April 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

Affirmative, oh most noble warrior of the bandit caste. And to guarantee that any misbehaviour on your side is reduced to a minimum, we have taken the liberty to place a few warships in orbit. Better safe than sorry, quiaff?

RP is gonna be great xD

bandit Caste would imply I was at one point a Clanner. I wasn't. Clans Wolf and Diamond Shark are well known for sneaky bidding.

I would have no problem with Warships, so long as PGI controlled them and not players.

[Nemesis Wolf]

Though these tactics are technically against clan protocol, the Devs have already stated that players won't be bound to clan protocol as it'd be unfair to force players piloting clan mechs to conform to those rules (Not to mention most players like to "gang-up" on one mech"). Personally I would love to see more 1-on-1 fights, but with the current Pinpoint Accuracy issues with grouped weopons always hitting their mark, that really wouldn't work right now anyway. Killing a mech (and being killed by them) is far too easy right now, and MWO doesn't even feel like a MW game atm.

[CCC Dober]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 April 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

bandit Caste would imply I was at one point a Clanner. I wasn't. Clans Wolf and Diamond Shark are well known for sneaky bidding.

I would have no problem with Warships, so long as PGI controlled them and not players.

*cough* I thought that "noble warrior" in conjunction with "bandit caste" gave it away. So much for sense of humor *sigh*
I should feel terrible, I know.

[Kyle Wright]

Thank You everyone for your response. Like I stated my knowledge is somewhat limited to the novels. The first trilogy I read in the BTU was eh JadeFalcon Trilogy. And that was after I had started reading novels in the FedCom Civil war era. Either ways its really good stuff. If it wasnt for the love of the Sword and Sunburst Id most likely have join one of the clans. One can only hope that those warhorns you guys are getting for clan mechs will give faction loyalty and the ability to choose a actual clan. till you make me a bondsmen in combat, all im gonna say is keep checking your 6.

Thanks again everyone.

[Bad Frosty]

Sounds like an easy fix to me. Clanners have to bid on a certain number of kills in order to earn anything. The more they bid, the more they earn, but they have the capacity to earn nothing if they fail to meet or exceed their bid.

This mechanism serves several purposes. For one thing. it prevents companies of clan Mechs dropping together and annihilating what should be a numerically far superior Inner Sphere Force. If the minimum bid is two, or even one, some clanners are going to be sunk. It will drive them to be reckless, which is what cost the clans the entire invasion, save Clan Wolf.

For another, it isolates Clan Pilots who can make that quota as elites. Well, the clans are supposed to be elite anyway. If you're not good enough to take out at least one mech, you shouldn't be piloting a front-line clan mech, dezgra. This achieves the additional desirable goal of making the rest of us hate the clans. The whole point of this game, and indeed, the entire battletech universe, is an eternity of war. So ask yourself this, would you rather play a meaningless shoot-fest where there are no lines or allegiances, or would you rather have a contest of the skilled versus the masses?

Don't take it personally. I'm not one of those who is going to pay $55.00 for a Summoner. To my mind, that is inane, and I spent $100.00 on this game the first day I got it. I just want a good fight, and my Victor sworn to the service of Davion provides that. But surely, there is no shortage of clanners who would pay that much for a chance to take my Victor apart. Care to bid, tank-breds? You have every advantage, a simple barbarian mech like mine should be no challenge. What do you say?

I really think that this simple measure would fix everything in the current game mechanic, insofar as the Clans go. The Inner Sphere may be full of noobs, it is true, but they are noobs who want to get paid. Everybody started as a noob, and now we have to face the elites. Well, bring it the frack on! If people have something worthwhile to fight about, they will always fight, no matter how many times they are defeated. I think PGI has a real chance here to galvanize the community, so long as they aren't lazy and just make clan mechs available. My enthusiasm for this franchise can easily be killed by such a thing. Oh, look, we get better weapons to advance the standard of warfare to where it was before, but at longer range. I'm positively thrilled.

You know what? This is OT, but who the frell, exactly, works public relations for this company? I can start a fun match in-game by saying that Sun-Tzu Liao is an ass. Immediately, every sword-wielding quasi-Chinese Communist is gunning for my Victor. What more do you want? Come get me or die trying. Anybody want to teach a lesson to the Federated Suns? Well, arm-up and let's see what you've got Mechwarrior. Win or lose, it will be glorious!

[Nathan Foxbane]

Another thing to note about the clans is they value victory above almost everything else within the limits of their bidding system. It may cost a commander some honor in deploying artillery, but if victory is achieved (mission objectives not just defeating the enemy out right) it is all that matters. "Dishonorable" tactics like overwhelming force, focused fire, ambushes, and artillery are ignored if the target or objective is considered valuable enough. A good example is Clan Jade Falcon's attempt to capture Prince Victor Ian Steiner-Davion on Alyina. They threw everything into that ambush they could muster and then some to try and get him, zellbrigen be damned, because he was considered such a high value target. The Jade Falcon commander probably would have used artillery if not for the fact the Falcons hoped to capture him alive and likely did not have any Bowman or Naga in their bid. Zellbrigen is a flimsy argument as a condition for artillery use as how that honor is defined at differing levels. How honorable something is for a warrior is very different from how honorable something is for a cluster. Finally, since duty to the clan comes before all else a warrior's honor may be sacrificed if deemed necessary for victory.

The catch is becoming dependent on something like artillery. Used sparingly artillery is a tactical tool just like anything else at a clan commander's disposal. Used constantly (perhaps as a crutch) and it becomes a taint of dishonor that follows a commander no matter how many victories it brings. Most clan mechwarriors view assignment to machines like the Naga as a punishment. But if they never used it the clans would not build it. The clans also developed FASCAM munitions for the Arrow IV and mine fields with their indiscriminate and passive nature are the antithesis of clan warfare. If a commander has such available and it suits the overall tactics planned for an upcoming battle, you better believe a clan commander will put a minefield down to force an enemy into a position where direct confrontation is possible.

Like most things clan it varies by clan. The Jade Faclons and Smoke Jaguars would have very limited artillery assets as they both have an extreme disdain of artillery in general. The Jade Falcons went so far as to limit all vehicles (which includes the Huitzilopochtli, the only artillery vehicle in general production and use by the clans at the time of the Invasion) to use for training purposes only for a time that included the Invasion. Clans Wolf and Hell's Horses meanwhile consider it just part of their TO&E and employ artillery regularly, relative to other clans at least.

Only the Arrow IV is available to the clans. They do not deploy tube artillery assets of any kind. Probably because the Arrow IV is the only artillery system somewhat suited to direct confrontation as a warrior can TAG for their own weapons if they have TAG mounted.

TL:DR Comes down to mindset. Is it considered dishonorable from a warrior's standpoint? Yes. Is it off limits from a clan tactical doctrine standpoint? Hell no!

[Craig Steele]

Nathan Foxbane, on 01 May 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

Another thing to note about the clans is they value victory above almost everything else within the limits of their bidding system. It may cost a commander some honor in deploying artillery, but if victory is achieved (mission objectives not just defeating the enemy out right) it is all that matters. "Dishonorable" tactics like overwhelming force, focused fire, ambushes, and artillery are ignored if the target or objective is considered valuable enough. A good example is Clan Jade Falcon's attempt to capture Prince Victor Ian Steiner-Davion on Alyina. They threw everything into that ambush they could muster and then some to try and get him, zellbrigen be damned, because he was considered such a high value target. The Jade Falcon commander probably would have used artillery if not for the fact the Falcons hoped to capture him alive and likely did not have any Bowman or Naga in their bid. Zellbrigen is a flimsy argument as a condition for artillery use as how that honor is defined at differing levels. How honorable something is for a warrior is very different from how honorable something is for a cluster. Finally, since duty to the clan comes before all else a warrior's honor may be sacrificed if deemed necessary for victory.

The catch is becoming dependent on something like artillery. Used sparingly artillery is a tactical tool just like anything else at a clan commander's disposal. Used constantly (perhaps as a crutch) and it becomes a taint of dishonor that follows a commander no matter how many victories it brings. Most clan mechwarriors view assignment to machines like the Naga as a punishment. But if they never used it the clans would not build it. The clans also developed FASCAM munitions for the Arrow IV and mine fields with their indiscriminate and passive nature are the antithesis of clan warfare. If a commander has such available and it suits the overall tactics planned for an upcoming battle, you better believe a clan commander will put a minefield down to force an enemy into a position where direct confrontation is possible.

Like most things clan it varies by clan. The Jade Faclons and Smoke Jaguars would have very limited artillery assets as they both have an extreme disdain of artillery in general. The Jade Falcons went so far as to limit all vehicles (which includes the Huitzilopochtli, the only artillery vehicle in general production and use by the clans at the time of the Invasion) to use for training purposes only for a time that included the Invasion. Clans Wolf and Hell's Horses meanwhile consider it just part of their TO&E and employ artillery regularly, relative to other clans at least.

Only the Arrow IV is available to the clans. They do not deploy tube artillery assets of any kind. Probably because the Arrow IV is the only artillery system somewhat suited to direct confrontation as a warrior can TAG for their own weapons if they have TAG mounted.

TL:DR Comes down to mindset. Is it considered dishonorable from a warrior's standpoint? Yes. Is it off limits from a clan tactical doctrine standpoint? Hell no!

Compare this view to Clan Cloud Cobra, pg 27 Warden Clan Source Book under the heading Battle Philsophies,

"Aerospace assets can weaken an enemy, but taking and holding an objective is a job for mech's. Array your enemies before you and let your artillery shatter their resolve, then swiftly move in and crush the last resistance as the cloud cobra crushes it's prey. A Cloud Cobra warrior does not fight for personal honour, but for the honour of preserving the Way."

As you identified, success is the ultimate measure of Clan Warriors honour but not every Clan nor every Clan warrior holds to the view that artillery is dishonourable.

In a duel, with Zellebrigen applying, yes artillery would be a dishonourable thing to utilise for most Warriors. But if the warrior won he still won. The other guy is still dead.

However in combat, not only is artillery a part of every Clans touman, but some Clans deploy it as part of their standard battle tactic (such as the Cloud Cobra's).

There is no canon basis for Clan warriors to not utilise / have access to artillery or airstrikes.