41 replies to this topic

[Black Templar]

I guess it is time to discuss armor and internal hp again

[Kmieciu]

SirLANsalot, on 30 April 2014 - 12:49 AM, said:

Actually the dumbest complaint is this.


"I kill mechs too fast"

Its the same issue, and I do agree with it, I kill mechs far too fast. I want to be battling it out with my opponent, not ripping though his armor and internals in 5 sec flat. I want it to take me 10-20 seconds it JUST TAKE THE ARMOR OFF, and another 15 to just down the insides. Right now the only mech that somewhat reflects that is the Atlas, and thats if you completely frontload the CT armor.

Case in point, we need armor doubled again, and internals tripled. Internal HP needs to be higher then the armor outside of it to really put a dent in TTK. Ammo based weapons should stay with the ammo they have now (maybe SRM/LRMs might need an ammo buff) but AC's need to stay as is, since its too easy to "fill" up the need of the weapons ammo. 3-5 tons (depending on the gun) is all you need with any of the ballistic weapons, if mech durability is drastically increased. Ballistics would need to take on more ammo, which means more tonnage dedicated to the weapon, rather then the "passing fancy" that they are now.

The root cause for doubling armor was instant pinpoint damage and weapon DPS increase (AC20 - 60 damage in under 10 seconds lol).

Solve the problem and you won't have to apply any workarounds.

[ThatBum42]

Kmieciu, on 30 April 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:

The root cause for doubling armor was instant pinpoint damage and weapon DPS increase (AC20 - 60 damage in under 10 seconds lol).

Also, when you shoot at something in TT, where you hit or if you hit at all is based on a dice roll (probably a series of dice rolls actually, not too keen on TT myself so don't bash me about that ). So where you hit was essentially random. In MWO, a video game where you can actually aim at something, it should follow that concentrated damage would be more of an issue. 2x armor seems logical, that or 0.5x weapon damage, but that sounds kinda eh when your AC/10 does 5 damage and not 10 as the name implies.

I don't think TTK is too bad if you play smart. Takes me plenty of time to take someone competent down, and I've always had 60FPS on my self-built gaming machine.

Edited by ThatBum42, 30 April 2014 - 02:50 AM.

[Kmieciu]

ThatBum42, on 30 April 2014 - 02:48 AM, said:

but that sounds kinda eh when your AC/10 does 5 damage and not 10 as the name implies.

Nowhere in TT does it say that AC-10 does 10 damage per shot. It does 10 damage per turn. It might as well be shooting 1 round every second that does 1 point of damage.

"Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/10s causing more damage than lower-caliber autocannons while retaining a moderate range.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/AC-10

In fact, it would be better for the MWO gameplay if it did. Because it is far more difficult to hit the same exact component with 10 rounds than with one. Single high-damage projectiles promote poptarting, ridge humping, ranged combat and hiding behind cover. It feels more like a Counter Strike match with everyone running around with AWPs.

Edited by Kmieciu, 30 April 2014 - 03:29 AM.

[Nemesis Wolf]

OP, the real problem isn't so much the damage values, its that grouped weapons automatically hit the exact spot they're aimed at. What the Devs failed to consider is that the weapons in Mechwarrior aren't as accurate as modern day weaponry, which is why in older MW games fights took longer. Just because you're aiming at a specific spot on a mech shouldn't guarantee that everything hits that spot. In the older games damage tended to drift to adjacent locations which is how it should be in MWO. No-one likes being 1 shot (unless its a lucky head shot which can't be helped sometimes). But to one shot people regularly in a game like Mechwarrior simply isn't fun.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 29 April 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

A unique complaint.
I am not going to suggest you video card is defective, I have a comparable (but older) card the Nvidia 570, and my frames have been 40-60fps @1920x1200 with the glass, it may just be a driver optimization in your instance. Additionally the two resolutions you mention do not appear to be monitor standards (1400x800 or 1920x1280) which may be contributing to your issue.

If I play the game in other resolutions it tends to clip through the screen. Drivers are quite current, game is forced to high priority and multithreading ect. Granted my GPU is the current bottleneck, when I first experienced these issues a reinstall helped a little but quickly went to crap again. I did happen to run the repair tool after patching but before adding the cfg file last night. If my preformance goes to crap again I'll update this thread. As for latency... LOL no issues there. It never goes above 39 and usually hovers around 25.

[Viges]

lockwoodx, on 29 April 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:

First of all I'd like to thank PGI for allowing us to remove cockpit glass, film grain, and depth of view. I literally thought my 2gb 750 ti was defective when I was getting 15FPS on MEDIUM settings in DX9 with AA off in 1400x800 windowed.

Now, I'm running in 1920x1280 fullscreen at HIGH settings in DX11 getting 45-55fps in solid fire fights. Thank you again PGI for unscrewing your game for the players.


Here's my complaint. As everyone discovers the game magically doesn't run like crap anymore, TTK (time to kill) is lower than ever. Maybe you guys think it's fun to play counterstrike in mechs with nothing but AWPs but seriously....... I'd prefer if a match lasted more than 2 minutes tops.

If you wanted cockpit glass, film grain, and depth of view to be removed = you wanted mwo to be more like counterstrike. Now you have it. Enjoy!

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Viges, on 30 April 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

If you wanted cockpit glass, film grain, and depth of view to be removed = you wanted mwo to be more like counterstrike. Now you have it. Enjoy!

I guess you missed the part where I said I'd love to run everything on ultra if possible. Of all the posts you chose to read in this thread, at least it was mine. You just didn't pick the correct one.

[Viges]

lockwoodx, on 30 April 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

I guess you missed the part where I said I'd love to run everything on ultra if possible. Of all the posts you chose to read in this thread, at least it was mine. You just didn't pick the correct one.

1. You started this thread. 2. If you want to run big games on ultra - buy a good video card. That is how it usually works. Not asking to remove part of the game mechanics and then complaining.

[wolf74]

The only way I see to fix your problem is for PGI to

1. Get the streak lock-on system to every five LRM's in flight.
2. Switch the convergence system to a Manual set point
2a. For game play a +-5m convergence correction
3. Give Pulse Lasers a same Burn time as normal lasers
3a. Pulse Lasers get a +-30m convergence correction.
4. Add CBT Targeting Computer which gives a +-15m convergence correction (for a total of +-20m)
4a. Targeting Computer does not stack with Pulse Lasers.


To make the switch over easier make it a optional and can only be changed in the mechlab.
Add a in game title Rookie for those using the current system
Add a in game title MechWarrior for using the Manual System.
Triple C-bill given for damage done only if using the Manual system.
Once CW comes out Double or Triple house reward for using the Manual system.

Edited by wolf74, 30 April 2014 - 07:25 AM.

[GoManGo]

Comment by Mcgrail18 below

Mathematically, weapons are doing too much damage if you compare the ratio to TT values. Armor was doubled, but weapons are for the most part are doing 3 recycles in 10 seconds, instead of 1.

Doubled armor brings that to 1.5 times too much damage...not too bad if you think about it.


The real issue is the fact all weapons hit the same location, so boated weapons simply become a single larger version of that weapon. Engine and hitreg limitations prevent progressive convergence from being effective.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First off anyone that believes armor was doubled is dumb as a rock. Armor number amounts(was40 now80 CT) were doubled in the UI but the ingame actual gameplay dose not reflect the change in armor amounts. So your really still playing mechs with the original ingame armor amount say (CT40 hit points) when it should be doubled to (CT 80 hit points) from what PGI has told us.

Plus the fact the OP is right mech longevity stinks in MWO even with skill and tactics used in battles. The weapons far overpower the armor or defensive values of the mechs. The only exception to this is LIGHTS MECHS because of there speed and maneuverability and this is only 20% of the lights the other 80% suffer lack of armor and survivability like 99% of MWO mechs do.

So basically I can load up PLANETSIDE2 and it plays just like MWO does MWO is still a FPS in a mech wrapper. When I play MechWarrior4 Mercenaries the mechs take a lot of damage per battle even under heavy concentrated fire by AI opponents.
Which is how MechWarrior was meant to be.

Edited by GoManGo, 30 April 2014 - 07:29 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

GoManGo, on 30 April 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

Comment by Mcgrail18 below

Mathematically, weapons are doing too much damage if you compare the ratio to TT values. Armor was doubled, but weapons are for the most part are doing 3 recycles in 10 seconds, instead of 1.

Doubled armor brings that to 1.5 times too much damage...not too bad if you think about it.


The real issue is the fact all weapons hit the same location, so boated weapons simply become a single larger version of that weapon. Engine and hitreg limitations prevent progressive convergence from being effective.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First off anyone that believes armor was doubled is dumb as a rock. Armor number amounts(was40 now80 CT) were doubled in the UI but the ingame actual gameplay dose not reflect the change in armor amounts. So your really still playing mechs with the original ingame armor amount say (CT40 hit points) when it should be doubled to (CT 80 hit points) from what PGI has told us.

Plus the fact the OP is right mech longevity stinks in MWO even with skill and tactics used in battles. The weapons far overpower the armor or defensive values of the mechs. The only exception to this is LIGHTS MECHS because of there speed and maneuverability and this is only 20% of the lights the other 80% suffer lack of armor and survivability like 99% of MWO mechs do.

So basically I can load up PLANETSIDE2 and it plays just like MWO does MWO is still a FPS in a mech wrapper. When I play MechWarrior4 Mercenaries the mechs take a lot of damage per battle even under heavy concentrated fire by AI opponents.
Which is how MechWarrior was meant to be.

I seem to be getting a lot of mileage out of this today.

Edited by Jade Kitsune, 30 April 2014 - 08:11 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Kmieciu, on 30 April 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

Nowhere in TT does it say that AC-10 does 10 damage per shot. It does 10 damage per turn. It might as well be shooting 1 round every second that does 1 point of damage.

"Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/10s causing more damage than lower-caliber autocannons while retaining a moderate range.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/AC-10

In fact, it would be better for the MWO gameplay if it did. Because it is far more difficult to hit the same exact component with 10 rounds than with one. Single high-damage projectiles promote poptarting, ridge humping, ranged combat and hiding behind cover. It feels more like a Counter Strike match with everyone running around with AWPs.

The thing is, ACs of a given damage class (AC/2 is "class 2", both AC/5 & UAC/5 are "class 5", both AC/10 & LB 10-X are "class 10", AC/20 is "class 20") deal that amount of damage per salvo... but, each salvo is supposed to be made up of multiple (as few as three (3), as many as 100) individual shells, fired in a burst.

This was described in The Sword and The Dagger, the second BattleTech novel ever published.

Quote

Ardan ran a hurried check on his Victor's main armament The right arm Pontiac 100 autocannon had the best chance of scoring a crippling hit on the Thunderbolt, but he was afraid that his swim in the mud might have fouled its feed mechanism.

The autocannon was a devastating weapon. It fired high-speed, rapid-fire streams of explosive, armor-piercing shells from cassettes or carousels fed into the gun one at a time by a complex and occasionally balky autoloader mechanism. Each cassette held 100 shells, and by a widespread but commonly accepted looseness of terminology, each cassette was itself considered to be one round. One cassette round was already loaded. Nineteen more were stored in the autoloader chamber high up in his Victor's right torso. He would have to use that single round carefully, because if the loader jammed, he would not get another chance.

This is also described in Tactical Operations (one of the four current BattleTech rulebooks), which provides gameplay rules for "walking" AC fire across two adjacent targets.

Quote

Multiple Targets: Rather than firing at a single target, any type of autocannon can be “walked” across two targets close to one another. An LB-X autocannon firing a cluster shot and Ultra and Rotary autocannons firing at multiple targets are a special case.

No matter what type of autocannon is being used, both targets must be in adjacent hexes and within range of the weapon. Determine the to-hit number for both targets and make separate to-hit rolls against each target, using the higher (more difficult) of the to-hit numbers and adding a +1 modifier for firing at multiple targets with a single shot. Note that this is not the secondary target modifier; that modifier does not apply to this type of attack unless multiple targets also are being attacked in the same phase. If the to-hit roll succeeds, the target is struck by a single hit that inflicts damage equal to half the normal damage done by the weapon (rounded down).

As examples: the 185mm ChemJet Guns (AC/20s) mounted on the Demolisher tank & the Zeus 75 (AC/20) mounted on the MechBuster attack aircraft fire in four-round bursts, while the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon (AC/20) mounted on the Hetzer combat vehicle fires a burst of ten 150mm shells, while the Pontiac 100 of the VTR-9B Victor fires a burst of one-hundred 100mm shells.
By contrast, the GM Whirlwind (AC/5) mounted on the MAD-3R Marauder fires a burst of three 120mm shells.
Each of those AC/20s deliver 20 damage per salvo, but vary in terms of damage per individual shell, while the Marauder's AC/5 still delivers 5 units of damage per salvo, distributed across the three shells that make up said salvo (specifically, its 1.667 damage per individual shell, multiplied by three (3) shells per salvo for a total of 5 units of damage per salvo).

Thus, the funny thing about Paul's decision that MWO Clan UACs being burst fire & MWO Clan LB-X slug mode being single shells is that it's actually the reverse of what is described in BattleTech.
More specifically, the "Multiple Targets" rules (described on page 100 of Tactical Operations) state the following:

• "Rather than firing at a single target, any type of autocannon can be “walked” across two targets close to one another. An LB-X autocannon firing a cluster shot and Ultra and Rotary autocannons firing at multiple targets are a special case."
  
• "Determine the to-hit number for both targets and make separate to-hit rolls against each target, using the higher (more difficult) of the to-hit numbers and adding a +1 modifier for firing at multiple targets with a single shot...If the to-hit roll succeeds, the target is struck by a single hit that inflicts damage equal to half the normal damage done by the weapon (rounded down)."
  
• "For an LB-X autocannon firing a cluster shot, make a single to-hit roll against the highest to-hit number plus 1. If all damage is applied to the first target after a roll on the Cluster Hit Table, then no additional damage is applied to the second target. However, if some of the damage missed the target, use that “missed” Damage Value as the new number to roll on the Cluster Hit Table to determine what damage struck the second target."
  
• "For Ultra and Rotary autocannons, make a single to-hit roll against the highest to-hit number plus 1. Then determine whether the designated number of shots fired hit a target. If only one shot hit, it will strike one of the targets - determined at random - with a single shot that does full damage. If two, four or six shots hit, one, two or three shots will strike each target at full damage. If three or five shots hit, one or two shots will strike each target; randomly determine where the other shot lands."

By that description, we get the following:

• All Standard, Light, and Hypervelocity autocannons fire all of their munitions in multi-shell bursts per "unit of ammunition", and said bursts can be "walked" across multiple (exactly two, in TT) adjacent targets; doing so successfully results in half on one salvo's rated damage being dealt to each target.
  
• All LB-X autocannons in slug mode fire in multi-shell bursts per "unit of ammunition", and said bursts can be "walked" across multiple (exactly two, in TT) adjacent targets; doing so successfully results in half on one salvo's rated damage being dealt to each target.
  
• All LB-X autocannons firing in cluster mode fire a single cluster shell per "unit of ammunition" that can spread to hit multiple (exactly two, in TT) adjacent targets.
  
• All Ultra and Rotary autocannons fire a singular large shell per "unit of ammunition", where the multi-shell firing modes (double-ROF for the UACs, double/quad/hex-ROF for the RACs) allow multiple shells to strike each target; each impact results in one salvo's full rated damage being dealt to each target.

[Dimento Graven]

I completely disagree with just about everything posted here.

Again, for those of us that tend to forget these things:

REAL TIME FIRST PERSON SHOOTER != TURN BASED TABLE TOP GAME

The primary difference between MWO and classic TT BattleTech is that in the TT game, you cannot aim.

The turn mechanics in BattleTech were boiled down to allow 4 people to play a single turn in approximately 5 minutes.

If you were to attempt to facilitate "aiming" in TT, 4 people would have required something on the order of 30 minutes per turn, to accommodate ALL the various factors and last I heard, there are about some 25 different things to go through to accommodate "aim" in a top down table top turn based game.

Fortunately, computers do that sort of thing extremely well, and very fast.

My understanding is that if you want that classic TT look, feel, and flow, there's another game called MechWarrior Tactics (http://www.mwtactics.com).

However, if you're into a MechWarrior pilot sim, then this game is for you.

All the 'bastardization' that people want to add will quickly turn this game into something OTHER THAN fun.

Also, and I am speaking extremely bluntly here, I don't for one f'ing second believe that ANY OF YOU actually believe you're killing "to quickly". I think the reality is, you feel you're DYING to quickly, BUT, to wear the 'unselfish *******' camouflage you post how sorry you feel for the people you're theoretically instakilling... Whatever...

Sometimes I die quickly because I wasn't paying attention, or got honestly out played, or due to the occasional lucky shot.

Sometimes I kill someone very quickly, because I caught them unawares, or I out played them, or I get that occasional lucky shot.

Be that as it may, quick kills do NOT mean the game is broken or needs any tweaking...

[AntharPrime]

Iguana Iguana, on 29 April 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

No there isn't an option in the settings.
According to the latest patch notes you need to adjust those thing via editing the user.cfg file in you MWO folder.

http://mwomercs.com/game/patch-notes

On the very bottom of the patch notes you will find the instructions.

I can't open the cfg file. I've tried word, notepad and even downloaded a few editors and still get gibberish.

[Sephlock]

SuckyJack, on 29 April 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

PGI isn't good at GUI in general.

You mean you don't like being treated like a guy who has just been caught in an ambush intervention every time you strip parts off a mech?

MWO: Hey man, your friends and family are very concerned about you. It looks like you're trying to remove the engine from your mech. Are you sure you want to do that?

Me: Yes. I just want to remove it temporarily while I play in another mech with it. I can put it back any time I want.

MWO: No, we don't think so. Taking out the engine is a very bad idea, are you really REALLY sure you want to do that?

Me: YES I'M SURE I WANT TO DO THAT. WHY DO YOU ASK ME THIS *EVERY*SINGLE*TIME* I DO THIS?

MWO: Hey we're just concerned that you might be making some bad choices.

Me: "Bad choices"? What the hell? I wouldn't even need to do this **** if I was able to make a decent income, and-

MWO: Whoa dude, don't get mad. We were just worried about you accumulating too many c-bills

ME: GET OUT! GET OUT OF MY HOUSE! AND LEAVE THE ENGINE! AND STOP INTERVENING EVERY TIME I TRY TO CHANGE ANYTHING EVER! AND WHILE You're AT IT STOP MAKING ME HAVE TO CLICK "OK" REPEATEDLY AFTER EVERY MATCH! It's like I'm trapped in a Skinner box that skinner made while he was drunk!

[Gas Guzzler]

Adiuvo, on 29 April 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

TTK being too short in pug games is a symptom of a lack of torso twisting. In fights between top units, games last quite awhile.

This guy knows what he's talking about.

Spread damage, use cover, don't stare at your opponent. If half your team does this your TTK won't be remotely close to CS with AWPs. Lolz... good times.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nemesis Wolf, on 30 April 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

OP, the real problem isn't so much the damage values, its that grouped weapons automatically hit the exact spot they're aimed at. What the Devs failed to consider is that the weapons in Mechwarrior aren't as accurate as modern day weaponry, which is why in older MW games fights took longer. Just because you're aiming at a specific spot on a mech shouldn't guarantee that everything hits that spot. In the older games damage tended to drift to adjacent locations which is how it should be in MWO. No-one likes being 1 shot (unless its a lucky head shot which can't be helped sometimes). But to one shot people regularly in a game like Mechwarrior simply isn't fun.

One-shotting does not happen regularly in MWO so what is your point?

[SirLANsalot]

Kmieciu, on 30 April 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:

The root cause for doubling armor was instant pinpoint damage and weapon DPS increase (AC20 - 60 damage in under 10 seconds lol).

Solve the problem and you won't have to apply any workarounds.

Fact of the matter is, that will never change in this game. AS such there are other thing that can be done (within PGIs scheme) to increase TTK without any major rewriting of code.

In FPS games with 1 total hitbox per a person CoF works just fine. HOWEVER in a MECHWARRIOR game with multiple hitboxes per a target, CoF is a testament in frustration. If all mechs were just 1 box, ya pinpoint would be a big time issue, but when I need to pick out a Left Leg or a Right Arm, I do not want to be second guessing the game itself, if it will let me get that shot off.

I know CoF would be a good implementation of TT dice rolls, but that kind of game play is not what Mechwarrior is about. Mechwarrior is a pure skill game, not a game of knowing how CoF works and learning how to work with spreay and pray. It instead is game of pure skill, being able to pull a cockpit shot off at over 1km, if you can do that, more power to ya. This game REWARDS that kind of skill, it doesn't punish it like other games do.

[Heisenberg MWO]

Try piloting some of the smaller mechs. The spider, jenner and cicada hardly take any damage at all as long as you keep moving. Its strange, normally these small mechs balance out by being smaller than the large mechs and harder to hit in other MechWarrior games. However this game all the mechs appear the same size in game and are balanced with some sort of.... ghost armor? I just don't understand why the small ones are so resistant to damage compared to their larger counterparts.

Edited by Heisenberg MWO, 30 April 2014 - 04:02 PM.