146 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

Im confused why people believe lights should be used for direct attacks. They are used for scouting, capping and attacking rear armor. If you are getting focused fired on in the open you should die very very quickly. Not tank more firepower than an Atlas. You have the speed and small size to position yourself for maximum effect, at no point whatsoever should you be trying to circle someone to death while hes surrounded by friendlies. Thats not your job, and has never been your job.

Even if its 1vs1 you should be running like hell from any heavy or assault. That is literally what light mechs do in canon. There is no reason whatsoever that a light mech 1/4th the cost of an assault should be able to take it on....every faction would simply build 4 light mech regiments for every assault regiment if it was possible.

Right now i see light mechs just run out into the open, get focused fired on by a lance of heavies/assaults and run off with yellow armor thanks to lag shield. Then they run back out into the open and get shot at again, and again. They should be getting punished for that, instead they are being rewarded. Even an Atlas will die if he just runs out into the open against 4 assaults, but a light mech wont, because of poor hit detection.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 02 May 2014 - 02:15 AM.

[Greyboots]

Darian DelFord, on 01 May 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

Now that Hit detection is working alot better, I am seeing more and more lights being nailed from 500+ meters out. What are we suppose to do? The only way to make C-Bills or Xp in this game is to do damage and assist. However I have noticed a remarkable increase in the speed in which lights die? Further the field is just being littered with Heavies and assaults again for the same reason I believe. 3/3/3/3 will not address this issue. I have known it was coing for a while now. The question is.... What are lights suppose to do about it.

Learn that the bolded part isn't true would do for starters.

[That Dawg]

Adiuvo, on 01 May 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

I play lights near exclusively. I really haven't noticed much of a difference in my death rate over the past month.

If you're noticing things, the only option is to improve as a pilot.

^ this

lights have enjoyed unprecedented favoritism with tiny hit boxes, high speeds, troll builds, and some- when shut down wouldn't register hits till their heat shutdown was over, welcome to MWO 2014

numero uno tip: NEVER EVER STAND STILL

[Joseph Mallan]

Darian DelFord, on 01 May 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

Really starting to tick me off. I am being sniped far better than I have ever been. My numbers have plummeted since this last patch. Hit detection is getting better. The problem is now, for those that do not have 20 tons of armor we are screwed.




ROFL OK I am a Jenner Pilot since closed beta, I know how to play the mech and my stats back it up. However even i can't beat out hit detection. Even I am finding it much easier to leg lights in a light. There is a difference. My question and the point of this thread is not to debate piloting skills, but to ascertain the point of playing lights when damage is king now.

No. You knew how to play lights when we had Lag Shields. Now you are being made to step up or step off. The others are correct. 500m Is nothing, when you're target is the size of a Tool shed!

[Silentium]

I switched to ECM/TAG LRM spotting, and it ain't so bad. TBH, this is kind of the role I had envisioned for myself before I even started playing. At least you can get some bonuses for that, nevermind the sweet goodness of a well placed UAV or Arty strike.

Sure, I no longer feel the rush of a deathstar run on the enemy blob, but I do feel the satisfaction of watching enemy mechs wither like ants under a magnifying glass as the LURM spam comes rolling in. It only sucks when there aren't any LRMs around, but even then, I can still keep my guys from getting LURM'd, moving that umbrella where it's needed most.

[ShinVector]

Jun Watarase, on 02 May 2014 - 02:11 AM, said:

Im confused why people believe lights should be used for direct attacks. They are used for scouting, capping and attacking rear armor. If you are getting focused fired on in the open you should die very very quickly. Not tank more firepower than an Atlas. You have the speed and small size to position yourself for maximum effect, at no point whatsoever should you be trying to circle someone to death while hes surrounded by friendlies. Thats not your job, and has never been your job.

Even if its 1vs1 you should be running like hell from any heavy or assault. That is literally what light mechs do in canon. There is no reason whatsoever that a light mech 1/4th the cost of an assault should be able to take it on....every faction would simply build 4 light mech regiments for every assault regiment if it was possible.

Right now i see light mechs just run out into the open, get focused fired on by a lance of heavies/assaults and run off with yellow armor thanks to lag shield. Then they run back out into the open and get shot at again, and again. They should be getting punished for that, instead they are being rewarded. Even an Atlas will die if he just runs out into the open against 4 assaults, but a light mech wont, because of poor hit detection.

Jun Jun... That is why some of us saw... This coming a long long time ago... And already devised counter a long long time ago.

Lights who have fought against the strongest high alpha assault/heavy pilots with low ping already knew getting 1 shotted was a serious problem.
1. Use ECM or Long range weapons or Both.
2. Stay hidden most of the two pop in and out cover for a second or so, at most... Until it is time to strike a near dead or distracted target.

To OP,

PGI hates lights... So deal with it...
How many patches has been nerfing light mechs ?
1. 40 KPH when legged.
2. Base Turrets...
3. High speed LRMS...

The list goes on..... Better hit detection is actually just something for the game to improve upon...
If MWO was a LAN... Probably Lasers would be the biggest threat to leg light mechs.
Meanwhile....

Edited by ShinVector, 02 May 2014 - 04:06 AM.

[Thorqemada]

Adiuvo, on 02 May 2014 - 12:48 AM, said:

That's.... just them outpiloting you =/ It's not some game bug or anything.

Only if Stackpole made the game...

PS: It has to do with the speed of Lights, the Client-Server disparity and the moevement prediciton and Ping/Lag.
On slow Mechs the error margin of the Movement Prediction/Client-Server disparity is small, on fast Mechs it is so big that a Light may give a "Ghost Target".

Aside of that i had a funny fight where i fought a Mech that was shoting back at me while it was already dead for every other Player...

Edited by Thorqemada, 02 May 2014 - 04:57 AM.

[Iqfish]

90 Days after Open Beta.

[Bishop Steiner]

Darian DelFord, on 01 May 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

ROFL OK I am a Jenner Pilot since closed beta, I know how to play the mech and my stats back it up. However even i can't beat out hit detection. Even I am finding it much easier to leg lights in a light. There is a difference. My question and the point of this thread is not to debate piloting skills, but to ascertain the point of playing lights when damage is king now.

I run my Ember, and still do fine. I think with most Lights (still seems like Spiders ignore damage a lot, though maybe not as much) we got LAZY, and decided to face hug, between removal of collisions and borked Hit Registry for so long. The point is that you ARE a Light. Caution is needed. IDC how long you have been playing. You are now seeing what SHOULD have been happening all along. I agree they need to get the Role Warfare part roling, especially for CW, so that Lights can benefit from less direct combat, but the day of the Light Fighter is not dead, it's just going to take people time to readjust now that more and more are being exposed to having got used to the Superman Shirt of LagShield/Hit Registry.

Joseph Mallan, on 02 May 2014 - 03:19 AM, said:

No. You knew how to play lights when we had Lag Shields. Now you are being made to step up or step off. The others are correct. 500m Is nothing, when you're target is the size of a Tool shed!

and heck, let's not even get into how egregiously undersized Lights technically are. Good god, could you imagine the tears if Mechs were actually correctly scaled in consistent manner?

Also, what is the role of Lights? Whenever 3/3/3/3 is working...there will be 3 Lights and 3 Mediums on the other team. Enjoy. IDC (sorry St. Jobe) what others say, it SHOULD be some seriously work, and skill to 1V1 a Light vs a Heavy or Assault. 1/4 the cost, 3x the speed? If they could take a Heavy on toe to toe (like they have been able to, thanks to shielding) why would anyone use anything else? That speed makes them 10x more versatile, even if it doesn't make you invulnerable WHILE RUNNING OUT IN THE OPEN. To take on Heavies and above, Lights should have to wolf pack. Yet I still kneecap and kill Fatties with my lil Ember, pretty much at will, as long as I am careful not to expose myself to focus fire.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 May 2014 - 04:52 AM.

[Kaldor]

Mycrus, on 01 May 2014 - 11:41 PM, said:

Lights are cool... I'm waiting for collisions to come back to make lights even more skill based...

As am I. Too many light pilots have relied on lag and pinballing off of bigger mechs for too long.

Bishop Steiner, on 02 May 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

and heck, let's not even get into how egregiously undersized Lights technically are. Good god, could you imagine the tears if Mechs were actually correctly scaled in consistent manner?

They will probably never get the mech scaling correct. Some mediums and heavies will continue to be 75-90% the size of an Atlas, but only have 50-80% of the armor.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 May 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

I run my Ember, and still do fine. I think with most Lights (still seems like Spiders ignore damage a lot, though maybe not as much) we got LAZY, and decided to face hug, between removal of collisions and borked Hit Registry for so long. The point is that you ARE a Light. Caution is needed. IDC how long you have been playing. You are now seeing what SHOULD have been happening all along. I agree they need to get the Role Warfare part roling, especially for CW, so that Lights can benefit from less direct combat, but the day of the Light Fighter is not dead, it's just going to take people time to readjust now that more and more are being exposed to having got used to the Superman Shirt of LagShield/Hit Registry.


and heck, let's not even get into how egregiously undersized Lights technically are. Good god, could you imagine the tears if Mechs were actually correctly scaled in consistent manner?

Also, what is the role of Lights? Whenever 3/3/3/3 is working...there will be 3 Lights and 3 Mediums on the other team. Enjoy. IDC (sorry St. Jobe) what others say, it SHOULD be some seriously work, and skill to 1V1 a Light vs a Heavy or Assault. 1/4 the cost, 3x the speed? If they could take a Heavy on toe to toe (like they have been able to, thanks to shielding) why would anyone use anything else? That speed makes them 10x more versatile, even if it doesn't make you invulnerable WHILE RUNNING OUT IN THE OPEN. To take on Heavies and above, Lights should have to wolf pack. Yet I still kneecap and kill Fatties with my lil Ember, pretty much at will, as long as I am careful not to expose myself to focus fire.

Not to mention that the way things currently are is a boon to Mediums, who ultimately fall on the lighter/faster/more maneuverable part of the weight class spectrum.

The current state of lights makes medium mechs more attractive IMO.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kaldor, on 02 May 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

As am I. Too many light pilots have relied on lag and pinballing off of bigger mechs for too long.



They will probably never get the mech scaling correct. Some mediums and heavies will continue to be 75-90% the size of an Atlas, but only have 50-80% of the armor.

and most Lights are considerably undersized, though the Jenner is not too egregious. The Spider and Commando though? Egads. And no, we already know they will not fix it, and Lights are intentionally undersize to help shield them. Of the ones out there though, I really wish they had tried to be consistent WITHIN class, if nothing else. The scale between the HBK and Jenner for instance is pretty good. Jenny needs only a slight bump up or HBK down. I tend to believe it the Jenny that could use to be a skosh bigger, but it's close enough not to complain too much. But some mechs, like the Centy, Treb, ALL 55 tonners, Quickdraw and Catapult? Conversely, way too big, Though the 55 tonners prove Height is not a competitive issue, overall, so much as width and CT size (Awesome/Dragon) so long as Hitboxes are well laid out.

But man, what I would not give to have my Griff actually in scale to my HBK!
Current Scale

approx rescale

one can dream......

Ultimatum X, on 02 May 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

Not to mention that the way things currently are is a boon to Mediums, who ultimately fall on the lighter/faster/more maneuverable part of the weight class spectrum.

The current state of lights makes medium mechs more attractive IMO.

I Mediums.......

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 May 2014 - 05:20 AM.

[Kaldor]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 May 2014 - 05:02 AM, said:

and most Lights are considerably undersized, though the Jenner is not too egregious. The Spider and Commando though? Egads. And no, we already know they will not fix it, and Lights are intentionally undersize to help shield them. Of the ones out there though, I really wish they had tried to be consistent WITHIN class, if nothing else. The scale between the HBK and Jenner for instance is pretty good. Jenny needs only a slight bump up or HBK down. I tend to believe it the Jenny that could use to be a skosh bigger, but it's close enough not to complain too much. But some mechs, like the Centy, Treb, ALL 55 tonners, Quickdraw and Catapult? Conversely, way too big, Though the 55 tonners prove Height is not a competitive issue, overall, so much as width and CT size (Awesome/Dragon) so long as Hitboxes are well laid out.

But man, what I would not give to have my Griff actually in scale to my HBK!


I Mediums.......

I can suspend reality for some chassis to be competitive Bishop. We are playing an FPS. Low tonnage, low armored mechs need to be smaller and faster than others. The Commando and Locust are pretty useless or niche useful at best in this game. Only once you get into about 30 tons on a Spider can you actually do something and I agree with you, the Spider is a little too small.

I love mediums too. I really miss playing my Hunchies, but Im not about to bang my head into the wall anytime soon

See what I wrote in this thread:

Quote

Lets lay this out simply:

First of all, this is not TT where someone in this thread basically said "on paper they are all the same"

Now we are playing what boils down to a FPS.
Size of a mech determines its ease of being hit
Smaller mechs are harder to hit. Smaller mechs are also generally faster.
Large mechs are easier to hit. Large mechs are also generally slower.

What does that tell us?
Size, speed, and armor all contribute to how long a mech lives without bringing up pilot skill.
Speed and armor is about in line for what the mechs should be.

This leaves the final variable that can be adjusted: size
If the Atlas is going to be the tallest mech in the game, then it should be the absolute upper limit in size vs armor. The Locust should be at the bottom of this scale. All mechs should fall in between.

Lets do some quick comparisons:

(Please bear in mind I used plugged values for the heights as I dont know exact values. If you can supply exact heights, please link them)

The Atlas can carry 614 points of armor and is our full sized model at about 20 meters tall which essentially has 30.7 points of armor per meter of height.

The Locust can carry 138 points of armor and is smallest sized model at about 5 meters tall which essentially has 27.6 points of armor per meter of height.

The Atlas having a higher armor rating per meter of height is good. Its a walking "shoot me" sign. The Locust having a slightly lower rating is good too as its tiny and can move at 170 kph.

Lets do a direct comparison:
The Quikdraw can carry 402 points of armor, which is roughly 2/3 the amount of the Atlas.
However, it is probably closer to 7/8 the size of the Atlas. This means that in spite its decent speed (100ish kph) and jump jets its very vulnerable and easy to kill.

You can run these comparisons all day....

What I am not saying is that all mechs should be cookie cutter in size. Using the upper and lower (5-20m in my above comparison) that should be where you start. Want to make a short fat medium? Fine. What to make a tall lanky light? Fine. However armor vs mech size vs speed is the ultimate formula and is directly responsible for how long a mech can live.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kaldor, on 02 May 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

I can suspend reality for some chassis to be competitive Bishop. We are playing an FPS. Low tonnage, low armored mechs need to be smaller and faster than others. The Commando and Locust are pretty useless or niche useful at best in this game. Only once you get into about 30 tons on a Spider can you actually do something and I agree with you, the Spider is a little too small.

I love mediums too. I really miss playing my Hunchies, but Im not about to bang my head into the wall anytime soon

See what I wrote in this thread:

Yup, I get that, though a few they went overboard. If a mech is so small the Banshee can't hit it at close range, I think it needs to be a smidge taller. (since as an FPS lacking in collisions, a Commando should not be able to leghump a BNC-3E with no danger whatsoever..... and yet can. If a match came down to those two mechs.... meh)

actually, what I really want is simply to "correct the scale" of the "fixed" game models some are using to 3D print, so I can get my whole unit of properly scaled 3D printed mechs.

[Lostdragon]

I had promised myself I wouldn't spend any more money on this game, but a few weeks ago I was hanging out with my good friend Jim Beam for the first time in a while and Jim convinced me to buy an Ember. The next day I was pretty upset, but I decided to make the best out of it so I bought two.more Firestarters and started leveling. Like the other lights I leveled, I found leveling fhem to be very painful, however, I think when I started I was at fairly high ELO.

I lost a lot while leveling because non-mastered mechs suck and I continued to hang out with Jim a bit too much. In the last couple of weeks I have sent Jim packing and my Ember is Elited, and it is my favorite mech now. I don't think I have worked my way back up to the ELO bracket I was playing Jenners in, but I am doing quite well in a lot of matches with the Ember. I find it to be more survivable than other light chassis, perhaps too good in comparson (I got the achievement that gives the Bad Company title after ending a match at 17% in the Ember).

I think the Firestarter is in a good spot for lights because its hit boxes make it possible to spread damage effectively. In my opinion the other lights need to be a bit more survivable like the Firestarter, but the Jenner and Spider are already pretty close.

Edited for many typos, posted from a smartphone.

Edited by Lostdragon, 02 May 2014 - 05:45 AM.

[Kaldor]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 May 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

Yup, I get that, though a few they went overboard. If a mech is so small the Banshee can't hit it at close range, I think it needs to be a smidge taller. (since as an FPS lacking in collisions, a Commando should not be able to leghump a BNC-3E with no danger whatsoever..... and yet can. If a match came down to those two mechs.... meh)

actually, what I really want is simply to "correct the scale" of the "fixed" game models some are using to 3D print, so I can get my whole unit of properly scaled 3D printed mechs.

I agree. Lights shouldnt be able to leg hump anything. The solution to that is just to bring knockdowns back in a sensible way. What we had before, while it was a hell of alot of fun, was not fun for for those getting trolled.

Should they be able to beat something double or triple their tonnage? Yes. A good light pilot should be able to stay on the back of an assault and kill them providing they do it right.

[Paewen]

Darian DelFord, on 01 May 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

Really starting to tick me off. I am being sniped far better than I have ever been. My numbers have plummeted since this last patch. Hit detection is getting better. The problem is now, for those that do not have 20 tons of armor we are screwed.




ROFL OK I am a Jenner Pilot since closed beta, I know how to play the mech and my stats back it up. However even i can't beat out hit detection. Even I am finding it much easier to leg lights in a light. There is a difference. My question and the point of this thread is not to debate piloting skills, but to ascertain the point of playing lights when damage is king now.

I'm a Jenner pilot since closed beta, and I'm not having the problems you are. Do I die more frequently, yes. But, If you use cover you will survive longer. Just don't give them clear lines of fire. You're doing it wrong.

[Kaldor]

Lostdragon, on 02 May 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

I had promised myselfbI wouldn't soend any more money on this game, but a few weeks ago I was hanging out with my good friend Jim Beam for the first time in a while and Jim convinced me to buy ak Ember. The next day I was pretty upset, but I decided to make the best out ofbit so I bought two.more Firestarters and started leveling. Like the other lights I leveled, I found leveling fhem to be very painful, however, I think when I started I was at fairly high ELO.

I lost a lot while leveling because non-mastered mechs suck and I continued to hang out with Jim a bit too much. In the last couple of weeks I have sent Jim packing and my Ember is Elited, and it is my favorite mech now. I don't think I have worked my way back up to the ELO bracket I was playing Jemmers in, but I am doing quite well in a lot of matches with the Ember. I find it to be more survivable than other light chassis, perhaps too good in comparson (I got the achievement that gives the Bad Company title after ending a match at 17% in the Ember).

I think the Firestarter is in a good spot for lights because its hit boxes make it possible to spread damage effectively. In my opinion the other lights need to be a bit more survivable like the Firestarter, but the Jenner and Spider are already pretty close.

Ive been thinking about about dropping some cash on one of these too. Damn you, please dont sway my opinion like that...

Edit: I guess I could tell my wife the Captain made me do it....

Edited by Kaldor, 02 May 2014 - 05:34 AM.

[Screech]

The fix is in. Do not run in a straight line. You can't out run a shot but you can avoid it.

[Kaldor]

Screech, on 02 May 2014 - 05:35 AM, said:

The fix is in. Do not run in a straight line. You can't out run a shot but you can avoid it.

Crazy talk