146 replies to this topic

[nimdabew]

Lostdragon, on 02 May 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

I'm not a big fan of the pinpoint damage that can one shot mechs, but to be fair you made a terrible decision and paid for it. You exposed yourself big time then almost stopped, so of course you were going to get splatted.

Terrible decision or no, PPFLD is still evident in non-terrible decisions. This is an obviously extreme example of what PPFLD can do to a mech, even if it is a lowly commando. I canot count the number of matches that my assaults, heavies, or even mediums are taken out by poptart meta mechs that only tag the center torso and leave the side/arm torso's relatively ok (yellow armor, internals fine). If I could, I would stack all X tons of armor in the center, while leaving a little bit in the side torsos and none in the arms (except a few points for the appearance of armor) just to combat the meta builds.

[Lostdragon]

nimdabew, on 02 May 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

Terrible decision or no, PPFLD is still evident in non-terrible decisions. This is an obviously extreme example of what PPFLD can do to a mech, even if it is a lowly commando. I canot count the number of matches that my assaults, heavies, or even mediums are taken out by poptart meta mechs that only tag the center torso and leave the side/arm torso's relatively ok (yellow armor, internals fine). If I could, I would stack all X tons of armor in the center, while leaving a little bit in the side torsos and none in the arms (except a few points for the appearance of armor) just to combat the meta builds.

I mastered Locusts when they came out and Commandos during the holidays last year,so I feel your pain. However, PGI seems to be happy with the state of things now so I have just come to terms with the fact that if I want to play those mechs I'm occasionally going to be one shot.

[Adiuvo]

nimdabew, on 02 May 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

Terrible decision or no, PPFLD is still evident in non-terrible decisions. This is an obviously extreme example of what PPFLD can do to a mech, even if it is a lowly commando. I canot count the number of matches that my assaults, heavies, or even mediums are taken out by poptart meta mechs that only tag the center torso and leave the side/arm torso's relatively ok (yellow armor, internals fine). If I could, I would stack all X tons of armor in the center, while leaving a little bit in the side torsos and none in the arms (except a few points for the appearance of armor) just to combat the meta builds.

This is only a problem due to a lack of torso twisting.

Here's a match between two top teams, in a protracted 'meta' sniping fight. Nobody died until there was an actual push at the end, due to everyone knowing how to torso twist.

Edited by Adiuvo, 02 May 2014 - 08:09 PM.

[Triordinant]

Actually, the REAL fix is to give light 'mechs the proper roles they have in the Battletech universe. Since they don't have those roles as of now, they are gimped. In the "real" Battletech universe, an undamaged Jenner that goes up against an undamaged Atlas will die 9 out of 10 times unless the Jenner pilot is amazingly good and the Atlas pilot abysmally bad.

How to implement role warfare where light 'mechs are scouts and not ninja brawlers? One way I can think of has to do with that red arrow that appears above an enemy 'mech when it comes within (I think) 800 meters of you (unless it's cloaked by ECM). Why not make Assaults detectable at 800, heavies at 700, mediums at 600 and lights at 500 meters? It would help light 'mechs scout more effectively without needing ECM.

[Adiuvo]

Triordinant, on 02 May 2014 - 08:14 PM, said:

Actually, the REAL fix is to give light 'mechs the proper roles they have in the Battletech universe. Since they don't have those roles as of now, they are gimped. In the "real" Battletech universe, an undamaged Jenner that goes up against an undamaged Atlas will die 9 out of 10 times unless the Jenner pilot is amazingly good and the Atlas pilot abysmally bad.

How to implement role warfare where light 'mechs are scouts and not ninja brawlers? One way I can think of has to do with that red arrow that appears above an enemy 'mech when it comes within (I think) 800 meters of you (unless it's cloaked by ECM). Why not make Assaults detectable at 800, heavies at 700, mediums at 600 and lights at 500 meters? It would help light 'mechs scout more effectively without needing ECM.

There is zero point in taking a light if it cannot fight effectively. Combat is the main focus in this game and always will be. You should not, by virtue of your mech choice, be able to poop on everything you come into contact with.

Assaults have a single weakness, and that is a lack of maneuverability. If you are caught out by yourself by a light mech you messed up horridly and should die for it. Even now it's still in the assault's favor, since if a light makes one mistake it can either die or be crippled.

[Triordinant]

Adiuvo, on 02 May 2014 - 08:17 PM, said:

There is zero point in taking a light if it cannot fight effectively. Combat is the main focus in this game and always will be. You should not, by virtue of your mech choice, be able to poop on everything you come into contact with.

Assaults have a single weakness, and that is a lack of maneuverability. If you are caught out by yourself by a light mech you messed up horridly and should die for it. Even now it's still in the assault's favor, since if a light makes one mistake it can either die or be crippled.

Lights are supposed to fight lights (and possibly mediums). In this universe, Assaults are supposed to be practically invulnerable to lights. Note: I don't own any Assaults.

[Lostdragon]

Triordinant, on 02 May 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

Lights are supposed to fight lights (and possibly mediums). In this universe, Assaults are supposed to be practically invulnerable to lights. Note: I don't own any Assaults.

That works in TT where every player has a whole team of mechs, but not in a game where each player gets one mech and one life per round.

[Triordinant]

Lostdragon, on 02 May 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

That works in TT where every player has a whole team of mechs, but not in a game where each player gets one mech and one life per round.

Actually, in the Mechwarrior tabletop RPG you get one 'mech and not even one life per battle: when you die, you're dead and you have to create a new green character from scratch. Every 'mech and every life is precious. Players around the table jump up and cheer when they pull off a hard-won victory against the odds. They talk about the battle for weeks. Ah, the good old days...

[SweetJackal]

Triordinant, on 02 May 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

Lights are supposed to fight lights (and possibly mediums). In this universe, Assaults are supposed to be practically invulnerable to lights. Note: I don't own any Assaults.

Not quite true. All mechs have limitations and weaknesses, a key one being arcs of fire. The higher speed of the light mechs in the TT does a few things:

A ) It worsens the To Hit values of the enemy mechs targeting them.

B ) Allows the faster mech to win initiative more often.

C ) Allows the ability to exploit the areas behind the mech, therefore facing little to no return fire.

Light Mechs survive, cripple and kill by using the limitations of weapon ranges, penalties, arcs of fire, Line Of Sight and Terrain to avoid getting hit in place of using more armor to absorb hits. The introduction of the BP system then allowed a each Heavy and Assault to be facing more of their number in Lights and Mediums. A good design despite how broken the BP system was and how easy it was to exploit BP.

The limitations of turning from a TT game and Single player campaign to a Closed Match Multiplayer is the design of setting a strict number of players per side. This limitation cripples the point of the BP design, meaning that changes made to the game from the transition from Turn Based Table Top to Real Time Multiplayer FPS need to put everyone on an equal "BP" scale. Being that, a Light Mech needs to be worth as much impact as an Assault.

So in the TT -AND- in MWO it's not that an undamaged Jenner is fighting an undamaged Atlas. It is about -how- that undamaged Jenner fights that undamaged Atlas. In both cases Light Mechs are killed faster by mistakes.

There is no backing at all in Lore or Mechanics in the Table Top that says that Light Mechs should be practically harmless to Assault mechs. The same armor and weapons that are on an Atlas are on a Jenner, just less of it.

Edit:

Also going to point out that Battletech is a nice little setting where Power Armor, Infantry and Armored Vehicles were a real threat to Battlemechs, including Assaults. Many Assaults tailored to exclusively Mech combat lacked firepower tailored to dealing with this small units, meaning either massive overkill in terms of both potential damage and economics or that the mech was very vulnerable to swarm tactics.

Also, IIRC, the first battlemechs were in the Assault Class. Light and Medium mechs were later advancements in design. If Lights were weaker in every way and 'worthless' compared to an Assault mech then advancements would never have taken Battlemechs in that direction.

Edited by SuckyJack, 02 May 2014 - 08:55 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

This is only a problem due to a lack of torso twisting.

not true. you can only shoot an enemy mech if your torso is facing them. unless you simply dont shoot at enemy mechs there is no way to avoid getting hit in the torso.

torso twisting can certainly help mitigate *some* of the damage to your torso. But its not gonna stop your torso from getting hit entirely because its impossible to dish it out without getting hit in return unless the other team is completely terrible.

the game has a very serious problem with time to kill being too low and one of the major reasons is the complete lack of armor on torso sections.

Edited by Khobai, 02 May 2014 - 08:54 PM.

[Lostdragon]

Triordinant, on 02 May 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

Actually, in the Mechwarrior tabletop RPG you get one 'mech and not even one life per battle: when you die, you're dead and you have to create a new green character from scratch. Every 'mech and every life is precious. Players around the table jump up and cheer when they pull off a hard-won victory against the odds. They talk about the battle for weeks. Ah, the good old days...

Never got into TT RPGs, had frustrating experiences with some non-BT ones and don't want to repeat that in MWO... piloting lights is frustrating enought at times as it is.

Edited by Lostdragon, 02 May 2014 - 08:51 PM.

[Karmen Baric]

The Raven is now the worst mech its seem, its legs appear to be the size of a highlanders and pretty much every match I die to in last 4 days was legs getting blown off.

[FupDup]

Karmen Baric, on 02 May 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

The Raven is now the worst mech its seem, its legs appear to be the size of a highlanders and pretty much every match I die to in last 4 days was legs getting blown off.

The Raven certainly has leg hitbox issues, but it's still a better mech than the Locust by a longshot.

[Triordinant]

Lostdragon, on 02 May 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

Never got into TT RPGs, had frustrating experiences with some non-BT ones and don't want to repeat that in MWO... piloting lights is frustrating enought at times as it is.

Now I honestly feel bad for you. I'm guessing it was the gamemaster/referee/dungeonmaster/whatever's fault. In my experience, this is where the problem is most of the time in tabletop RPGs.

[Adiuvo]

Khobai, on 02 May 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

not true. you can only shoot an enemy mech if your torso is facing them. unless you simply dont shoot at enemy mechs there is no way to avoid getting hit in the torso.

torso twisting can certainly help mitigate *some* of the damage to your torso. But its not gonna stop your torso from getting hit entirely because its impossible to dish it out without getting hit in return unless the other team is completely terrible.

the game has a very serious problem with time to kill being too low and one of the major reasons is the complete lack of armor on torso sections.

Please watch the video. Skip around if you want since it's all in my perspective (a light) so you can't exactly see the damage numbers, but at the end it's obvious that both teams were incredibly hurt, but not dead. Both teams had damage spread everywhere, not due to an inability to aim on the other team's part but due to their own torso twisting.

Neither of the teams involved in that match (House of Lords and Swords of Kentares) are terrible. Both, in the competitive scene, are well known to be skilled and top the leaderboards.

[Demuder]

Adiuvo, on 02 May 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:

This is only a problem due to a lack of torso twisting.

Here's a match between two top teams, in a protracted 'meta' sniping fight. Nobody died until there was an actual push at the end, due to everyone knowing how to torso twist.

That was a very nice video Adiuvo. But I think the fact the damage is spread all over is due a lot more to the constant poptarting than the torso twisting itself. In fact, the team with the fewer poptarts, lost.

That is not to say ofc that torso twisting is not important, but when it comes down to 30 point FDLs, torso twisting will only help you once or twice, since with 60 points, each location can take two hits before blowing up, except for the CT of an assault.. In fact, it's pinpoint FLD that cancels torso twisting, not the other way around.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Adiuvo, on 02 May 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:

This is only a problem due to a lack of torso twisting.

Here's a match between two top teams, in a protracted 'meta' sniping fight. Nobody died until there was an actual push at the end, due to everyone knowing how to torso twist.

Didn't watch the video but I can guess how they managed to spread the damage. JJs right? try showing a top tier match where there are pinpoint snipers but no JJ capable mechs and see how well damage is spread... I also can't count the number of times i have fired and twisted fully to the side only to see a component that was only visible before twisting take damage moments after it was out of sight. FLD guns need to have the fire rate/ammo doubled and damage/heat halved so it takes so skill to core out a mech without touching the rest of the mech instead of 2 lucky shots. Maybe give like 55-60% damage per shot with doubled fire rates to buff dps a little to compensate.

I've never been in a laser brawl with another non-light mech, win or lose, and not come out of it without having some fun. Then consider how often mechs are killed without any chance to contribute anything because of one or 2 lucky shots by a FLD meta build or getting unlucky with a ECM tag spotter during one of the few times you aren't humping cover and losing 40+% of your assault mech's armor before you managed to find the rare lucky piece of cover that blocked the lrm rain from hell.

Fun should come first in a game and pop tarts and lrms used by coordinated groups is a fun black-hole for PUGs and that is a problem that needs fixing if you want to gain new players and keep older ones interested.

[Adiuvo]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 03 May 2014 - 12:50 AM, said:

Didn't watch the video but I can guess how they managed to spread the damage. JJs right?

JJs had nothing to do with the way damage was spread in that match. The positioning didn't call for it. A hill humper would have been able to do the same thing, and they frequently did around RHoD season 2 when Stalkers were still in relatively consistent use.

[Aresye]

I've complained many times about the hit detection for lights in the past. I've seen Embers with cherry red CTs charging dual-LBX builds in a straight line and not getting killed, and I've had plenty of situations where a light would even be standing still and not take any damage from an AC-20 @ 90m.

Now that their precious lag shields have (finally) been taken away, I hope to see many more of these threads. It brings me great joy.

[Griggio]

My best matches in a light have applied most of what was posted already. I team up with other lights if any happen to be in the drop, the more targets there are to shoot at the less likely i'll get focuses down. Using terrain to mask my approach and always move in from the direction they aren't facing. I've picked off countless mechs from behind who strayed from the herd while trying to catch up to their main force. My KDR's on lights are actually better then on my heavies and Assaults.

Assaults in a 1 on 1 always give me a bit of a pucker factor though. For me being as tight in as possible and going straight for legs/rear armor and already looking a well covered exit in case things go south quickly. I'm also prone to baiting hungry mechs into a position that may give our team an advantage, whether it's splitting the force, or drawing them into the bigger guns.

One of those things as a light pilot you always have to come to terms with is that there are players out there who have really good aim or they just happened to squeeze off a lucky shot. Living life on the edge of total destruction and possibly having a really short match is a fact of life of light pilots.

I can see it from the other side though. My 2 PPC/3 AC5 alpha Banshee is devastating on a lights and it isn't uncommon for me to 1 shot, CT core a light who wasn't paying attention or just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.