196 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

HighTest, on 06 May 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

Good point. Especially from an LRM boat pilot.

Perhaps Koniving's idea will work... but maybe double-double isn't the right answer. Maybe +33% on both sides or something. Or asymmetrical -- 50% on recycle, 33% on damage. Or whatever.

I'm by no means an LRM user, but I do have one or two LRMs on a couple of mechs. I'm not sure that I'd like to have to wait 8-9 seconds to use my weapons again.

Besides -- you may be increasing damage to compensate for the additional recycle delay, but that doesn't compensate for the time your target has to realize the situation and bail. So there is also an intangible that needs to be worked into the math too.

The problem with balancing LRMs is that with energy or ballistics, despite some nuances, they are basically similar -- aim, and shoot. With LRMs, you get the benefit of spotting assists, no need for line of sight, an arcing trajectory, etc. So they have some inherent advantages / disadvantages (read: differences) from the other two that make comparing them a lot harder.

With energy weapons, PGI created 'ghost heat' to deter boating. But they left individual weapon stats basically the same. I'm wondering if they can do something 'equivalent' for LRMs too, rather than messing with balance further, which even I agree as a non-LRM user (mostly) is currently in a decent place. Maybe like forcing all LRMs stored in a particular location to fire at once instead of chain fire. (ie. So for a ROFLpult, 2 volleys of 15 over 4 secs instead of 6 volleys of 5 over 4 secs.) Blame it on the crappy lostech targeting computers available in 3050 -- it takes them longer to get a fix and code the missiles or something.

the reason that we're going to fame percentage increase on the weapons is because we're trying to not harm the DPS, if the DPS is lowered, people will just dump the weapon. With Double-Double or 33% to both, the DPS remains the same (about 2.5 per second for example)

Also, the 8-9 second wait, is on the biggest launchers (20s and 15s), it will not hurt your DPS.

On point of the enemy pilot realizing that they are going to be hit and bail, the damage will still be around the same with both scenarios, it will just make mistakes punishable appropriately.

LRMs are in a good place right now mechanically, but the reward is a not much sometimes. If you're caught in the open you deserve to get wrecked every weapon but LRMs gets rewarded for getting a clear line on an enemy in the open with increased lethality. However, with the current system, you can easily start running for cover, and possibly make it, even with the unreal amount of missiles that got lobbed at you.

With increased damage-Cycle time, it won't take as many missiles to kill a mech (400 seem kinda ridiculous), but at the same time you won't put 400 missiles into a target within the span of 40 seconds, from one mech.

The element I find troubling is actually the screen shake/blindness from explosions from LRMs. with the current fast rate of fire, I can keep you blind and unbalanced with LRMs, almost as much as ACs. It's an added bonus, but I think it's a bit too much.

[Motörhead]

IraqiWalker, on 06 May 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

Biggest problem with your post is that you'd have to EXPOSE your self as an LRM boat to counter fire from your opponents. Since you're running an XL engine (as an LRM boat, you absolutely should, unless you want to mount 4 tons of ammo and still be way at the back of the team) you will die horribly and quickly. Back up weapons lessen the risk, but you will never survive against a 4 LL 2ML Jester charging you. Not to mention that you will be useless as soon as they enter the 180 meter range, which they will as soon as they get visual on you.

As for the Artemis suggestion, well, I don't see a logical reason for why that should be the case. You're punishing players who are already already sacrificing an extra slot, and an extra ton per launcher to get a small increase to grouping, by also reducing their range? That's from a mechanical point of view.

Now from a technology point of view, Artemis guidance shouldn't have an impact on the range, all it does is tell the missile fins to move better as they curve into their target.

had multiple match with 600-800 damage and many kills with that build, try first at least.

expose what ? TAG is top left on the 2K, to TAG in cover you expose 10% of the mech, then with speed you can reposition and keep going.

Also frontal hitboxes of the SHD are much bigger for the CT : http://img11.hosting...xshadowhawk.png



invia immagini

EDIT : last game after reading your post... medium LRM boats are much better then most people think. but at least you have few ammo, can't stand back and spam or you'll do 300 damage, have to TAG yourself and yeah...risk too! and it's funny!

Edited by fx8320, 06 May 2014 - 12:43 PM.

[VXJaeger]

Why are you still feeding the troll?

[IraqiWalker]

fx8320, on 06 May 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

had multiple match with 600-800 damage and many kills with that build, try first at least.

expose what ? TAG is top left on the 2K, to TAG in cover you expose 10% of the mech, then with speed you can reposition and keep going.

EDIT : last game after reading your post... medium LRM boats are much better then most people think.

Are you talking about TAG on spotter, or LRM boats? I understood your post as being about LRM boats getting direct line of sight themselves. Which, whether you like it or not, requires you to expose your mech fully, if you want to launch missiles and not have them slame into the cover you're hiding behind.

As far as medium LRM boats, they are usually the best ones. Because they are mobile enough that they can dictate the terms of the engagement and relocate and keep up with the team faster than any assault LRM boat ever could.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 06 May 2014 - 12:43 PM.

[Motörhead]

No, that's the good thing of the 2K build ! It can TAG itself !

to TAG it exposes 10% of the mech if you can use cover (just watch where tag is mounted and how it peeks), can't fire because or ridge?no ! cos you got JJs! artemis is in function when the missile is fired with los, then you can go cover, and you can keep in the 300-400 range meters where the others with ACs and PPCs are firing, usually peeking you aren't primary taget, and BAP+TAG+ARTEMIS = super fast lock, then you can cover keeping the lock with advance taget decay and hitting with artemis benefits while going back to cover, ADV target decay is 3,75 secs and LRMs speed is 150m/s so you just have to keep in the 400m range and rack up the kills/damage.

that's the whole point of the build I posted

That was just an example too, because usually I run the XL300 with no artemis to get my locks, and 96km/h you can outrun or keep same distance from about anything but lights.

Edited by fx8320, 06 May 2014 - 12:54 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

VXJaeger, on 06 May 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

Why are you still feeding the troll?

As he has not really been responding (has this one post to his name)- or near as we can tell even paying attention - it would be less feeding a troll and more rehabilitating a thread

[IraqiWalker]

fx8320, on 06 May 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

No, that's the good thing of the 2K build ! It can TAG itself !

to TAG it exposes 10% of the mech if you can use cover (just watch where tag is mounted and how it peeks), can't fire because or ridge?no ! cos you got JJs! artemis is in function when the missile is fired with los, then you can go cover, and you can keep in the 300-400 range meters where the others with ACs and PPCs are firing, usually peeking you aren't primary taget, and BAP+TAG+ARTEMIS = super fast lock, then you can cover keeping the lock with advance taget decay and hitting with artemis benefits while going back to cover, ADV target decay is 3,75 secs and LRMs speed is 150m/s so you just have to keep in the 400m range and rack up the kills/damage.

that's the whole point of the build I posted

That was just an example too, because usually I run the XL300 with no artemis to get my locks, and 96km/h you can outrun or keep same distance from about anything but lights.

That's a nice set up. I'll try it when I get the K2, but the drawback to that strategy is that it only works with the K2. The discussion was more general in direction. However, I will concede that with the K2, getting direct LOS and still be effective and somewhat hidden is a LOT easier than with the other LRM boats.

[Koniving]

VXJaeger, on 06 May 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

Why are you still feeding the troll?

We're discussing balancing ideas.

---------

I can appreciate Hightest's viewpoint. As Iraqi said, we don't want to hurt the DPS.

Here's some examples. The LRM 5 has a 3.25 second refire rate. 6.5 seconds. Instead of 5.5 damage (total), 11 damage (total). 3.75 for LRM 10, now 7.5 seconds. Instead of 11 damage total, 22 damage. LRM 15 is currently 4.25 seconds, now 8.50 seconds. Instead of 16.5 damage, 33 damage. Now for the LRM 20 instead of 4.75 seconds it'd be 9.5 seconds, and instead of 22 damage it'd be 44 damage.

Basically it'd be absolutely devastating when it hits, if it hits. And you'll never go pure boat, because unless you have an escort you'd never stand a chance. Yet it'll remain as "balanced" as PGI has decided they want it to be. At the same time, AMS will truly matter, for every missile destroyed is 2.2 damage less to pelt them.

Single LRM-20 in use.


Basically LRMs will be useful, feared, but instead of the constant spam weapon they are, they will become that much less common pelting of death that when it does come will be a complete surprise. It may even warrent the return of this.

"Warning: Targeted!"
"Warning: Missile Lock!"
"Warning: Incoming Missile!" <--replace with the LRM alarm.
Side note: Back then LRMs did 1.8 damage per missile. If they hit. Most of them weren't hitting and they had lots more spread back then (as you can plainly see). There was also them instantly being destroyed when they hit water and lack of modules to maintain locks after losing sight.

Edited by Koniving, 06 May 2014 - 01:41 PM.

[Motörhead]

On a side it looks nice, but for a medium boat is fairly easy following the flow of the game and being in range for LRM to hit.

As one can load easily LRM30s(and that would be 66 damage if doubled) on a medium and run around 100 km/h, wouldn't they become much stronger then now ?.

It would nerf assault/heavy slow boats, but will make medium fast boats really fearsome.

imagine a premade playing vs PUG, 1 assault and 2 meds with the lrm30, assault tank and get a target, 132 potential damage then ? that would core about anything but assaults in 2 seconds if 50% hits, if more missle hits, anything will be cored in just few seconds.

Edited by fx8320, 06 May 2014 - 01:50 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

fx8320, on 06 May 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

On a side it looks nice, but for a medium boat is fairly easy following the flow of the game and being in range for LRM to hit.

As one can load easily LRM30s(and that would be 66 damage if doubled) on a medium and run around 100 km/h, wouldn't they become much stronger then now ?.

It would nerf assault/heavy slow boats, but will make medium fast boats really fearsome.

imagine a premade, 1 assault and 2 meds with the lrm30, assault tank and get a target, 132 potential damage then ? I dunno...

Fewer salvos, plus AMS would still keep everything in balance.

Yeah, repositioning quickly would become more viable, but I don't think it would be any more crippling on assaults than it is right now.

The trade off between assault LRMs, and medium LRMs is paylod<->relocate potential. Assaults can't relocate as well as medium LRM boats, but Medium LRM boats can't carry as big a payload or salvo as assault LRM boats do. (Don't think I know a medium that can carry 17 tons of LRM ammo while still maintaining a large enough salvo to be effective).

EDIT: Parenthesis

Edited by IraqiWalker, 06 May 2014 - 01:51 PM.

[Motörhead]

Yes it also would need less ammo per ton.Maybe a bit wider spread too, but then they would become a totally new weapon.

On a side note, on assault mode matches, some mechs would easily kill turrets in one salvo

[DarkonFullPower]

LRM's are strategic weapons, in the same vein as artillery. Many people think tactics = strategy. They do not.

[Koniving]

fx8320, on 06 May 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

On a side it looks nice, but for a medium boat is fairly easy following the flow of the game and being in range for LRM to hit.

As one can load easily LRM30s(and that would be 66 damage if doubled) on a medium and run around 100 km/h, wouldn't they become much stronger then now ?.

It would nerf assault/heavy slow boats, but will make medium fast boats really fearsome.

imagine a premade playing vs PUG, 1 assault and 2 meds with the lrm30, assault tank and get a target, 132 potential damage then ? that would core about anything but assaults in 2 seconds if 50% hits, if more missle hits, anything will be cored in just few seconds.

No stronger than before. Sure, fewer hits necessary, but the DPS is identical. So whether it's 33 damage fire twice as often or 66 damage and fire half as often, it's still a total of 66 damage dealt. Even the AMS-taken out missiles would be identical, the damage reduced, identical. Nothing actually changes except the removal of spam (which is ANNOYING) and a change of tactics.

It'll be harder to find a missile mech -- they aren't spaming a big river that leads back to them. This is beneficial to them.

They can't fire as often -- this hurts them as their misses are more important than ever and instead of sitting back drinking a martini while catching up on celebrity gossip as mechs die from his endless torrent of rain.. they have to pay 100% attention to what they are doing, time their shots to get great hits, apply more skill to positioning and making their shots work. This would be especially important after R&R returns, as with double the damage, their 're-arm' price per ton will likely double too.

The only thing to worry about is how Clan mechs will use LRMs.

[IraqiWalker]

fx8320, on 06 May 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Yes it also would need less ammo per ton.Maybe a bit wider spread too, but then they would become a totally new weapon.

Nope, no need to change any of that. Everything else stays the same, and all that happens is the mitigation of the "River of shake and death" effect. The damage is going to be the same, and the mechanics will be the same.

[Mainerd]

I think doubling the damage an increasing the recharge rate would be bad. Granted it would still be the same dps but it would front load too much damage.

[HighTest]

Exactly my point, Mainerd.

It's like taking the AC10 and buffing it to do 20 damage. Or taking the AC20 and extending its range. (Even if you double the recycle time). It changes the dynamic or role or feel of the weapon. Two LRM20s would then have a scary Alpha...

[wanderer]

Note that double-double would make -A1 6x5's hit like Stalker 60-launchers with better grouping.

Total tube count would go down to keep as much speed as possible with LRM5 loadouts, and suddenly there would be huge amounts of tonnage freed up, meaning LRM boats would no longer be shooting targets for other 'Mechs.

Alternatively, max tube count that would obliterate a light in one shot.

[White Bear 84]

Flaming oblivion, on 03 May 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

LRM's are the most situational unreliable weapons in game with the most hard and soft counters. Not to mention the slowest moving, the warning you get when they're coming , The minimum range .

Probably not so if the OP was up against a bunch of premades or a heavy LRM team. There are those matches where there are just so many LRM's that even as you go into cover you get smashed. When you have salvo's of at least 60+ coming your way, its a much more different story than just one or two volleys.

Also, if you have a light mech scouting that you cannot see e.g. ecm spider, or their brawlers are charging you so you can get out of lock...

All im saying is that generally they are alright, but there are those few matches where the level of spam is through the roof and even cover can do little to save you. I would hazard at a guess this may be the case for the OP.. ..maybe..

Edited by White Bear 84, 06 May 2014 - 05:32 PM.

[Koniving]

HighTest, on 06 May 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

Exactly my point, Mainerd.

It's like taking the AC10 and buffing it to do 20 damage. Or taking the AC20 and extending its range. (Even if you double the recycle time). It changes the dynamic or role or feel of the weapon. Two LRM20s would then have a scary Alpha...

Technically they did this anyway. In the books it takes anywhere from 4 to 100 shots to do 20 damage with an AC/20 (depending on the brand, make, model, etc.), as they were rated damage over time weapons since single shot cannons were not effective enough against actual mech armor anymore. For example the stock Victor's AC/20 is actually a 100 shot AC/20 described to fire insanely rapidly and require the mech to manually reload it with its left hand by pulling the magazine out of the right torso and shoving it in. In case of losing the left arm it also had an automatic feed, but was described as 'slower' and prone to reload issues.

The Heavy Rifle, which the only one I found is 190mm, does 9 damage, weighs 8 tons, and fires once every 5 or so seconds and requires a mech to have two hands. Problem is when it hits a mech with the armor used in MWO's time frame, it drops to 6 damage.

Note that the largest AC/5 is 120mm, the largest AC/2 is 80mm, and the largest AC/20 is 185mm and requires 4 shots (at 5 damage each) to do 20 damage. I should note a 120mm bore cannon is the same that you find on the Abrams A1. The Whirlwind/5 is the AC/5 rated at 3 shots, 120mm, and does 1.67(rounded) damage per shot. (1.666666666666667) which if you times that by 3 gives you exactly 5 damage. Take that same number and the King Crab's AC/20 which is also 120mm pumps out 12 shots to do 20 damage. So times (1.666666666666667) by 12. Look at that, 20 damage. A 40mm AC/2 pumps out 8 shots at 0.25 damage to do 2 damage in its firing cycle. The 40mm AC/5 pumps out 20 shots at 0.25 damage to do 5 damage in its firing cycle.

Point is PGI's already front loaded your AC/10. Big time. Especially since the biggest AC/10 I found is also limited at 120mm and is basically a faster firing AC/5 with the rest of the tonnage in the faster loader and feed for larger magazines.
And truth be told, your armor is supposed to be half of what it is. Atlas at 608? Nope, supposed to be 304.
LRM is supposed to do 1 damage against 1 point of armor against an Atlas with 304 stock armor.
But currently we're doing 1 damage against double armor (1 point of armor with an Atlas that has 608 stock armor).

It's as if our LRMs are doing 0.5 damage as it is when you tack in the fact mechs have double armor.
But, LRMs are supposed to fire once every 10 seconds, as they need x amount of time to safely reload.

So double damage, double cooldown brings them close to a canon (source material) reload time, and just 'slightly' above the damage it's supposed to do per missile as compared to our double armor.

Could that be too front loaded? If it remains 1.1 doubled, possibly. 1 damage doubled, however, might be just right.

Edited by Koniving, 06 May 2014 - 05:54 PM.

[Clownwarlord]

LOL another lrm hate thread!

Well here is some things:

- lrms require others to spot
- lrms require 180 m min to 1000 m max
- lrms to be effective require to be boated
- lrm boats usually have little other weapons to protect them selves


If you do not like lrm boats then go stalk them down in a light mech behind enemy lines. If they are idiots then they most likely will be 500m or more away from their allies and will be easy pickings for you. If not the FIND COVER!!!

Other things about lrms:

- ECM negates lock on (unless obstructed)
- AMS helps prevent damage from 5 missile streams
- line of sight helps prevent lock on (so long as no one else is spotting you or you are not NARC'ed)
- Other weapons have greater range (ERPPC) so use them.
- Other weapons do not have a minimum range.