I run missle boats almost exclusively and love them. The way to be succesful in them is to carry enough back up weapons to "tenderize" components of an enemy mech
for example my Orion VA uses 2 lrm 20's and 2 ER large lasers. I use the lasers to pick a component usually the CT or if applicable the LT or RT and give the target a few blasts then i lurm from behind a building till they pop. If you are just slapping as many LRMs as possible onto a chassis without regard for backup systems like a PPC to counter ECM or a tag or a narc or a BAP or some combination of those you are doing it wrong.
@OP: Buh bye. If you can't avoid lrms on most maps you suck. On top of that you're a whiner. you will not be missed.
I wonder how many more people would be playing this game without attitude like this?
My only complaint about LRM is that every mech gets a default targeting computer that should take up crits and weigh 3 tons.
The LRM imbalance occurs when one team has several ECM mechs and missiles and the other team doesn't have ECM. Remove the ability for everyone to spot and only allow NARC/target laser to remotely allow lock ons. Make ECM increase the time required for a lock and not disable locks, this will allow non-ECM mechs to have a chance. This both buffs LRM by taking away the umbrella ECM protection and nerfs them by reducing the number of potential spotters.
My only complaint about LRM is that every mech gets a default targeting computer that should take up crits and weigh 3 tons.
The LRM imbalance occurs when one team has several ECM mechs and missiles and the other team doesn't have ECM. Remove the ability for everyone to spot and only allow NARC/target laser to remotely allow lock ons. Make ECM increase the time required for a lock and not disable locks, this will allow non-ECM mechs to have a chance. This both buffs LRM by taking away the umbrella ECM protection and nerfs them by reducing the number of potential spotters.
From what I can see, Inner Sphere doesn't require weight or slots for basic targeting software. That is except for the C3 system. The C3 system is required for mechs to be able to share targeting data between mechs in the form of "I spotted this enemy, lock my target." Otherwise, LRMs are dumb-fired like artillery and feature minimal tracking in lore unless an LoS lock is achieved.
My own problem is how frequently they can fire. But yes, the game would be a little richer if that was required. But then every other weapon would be far better just because of that nature. Essentially we'd require a complete rebalancing of the game from the ground up (the game seriously needs it anyway).
PGI won't change LRM anytime soon. LRM makes new players feel like they can do well. And we all know they need new players. It seems they got what they wanted, since in public matches I rarely see names I recognize anymore and most players move and shoot (and shutdown) like they are new.
In recent weeks lots of good players have fled to private lobbies and they do public matches only to earn CBills. Given that DMG arguably earns more CBills than kills, why bring anything other than LRM boats?
i rly liked this game, as i liked all the MW games before this.
BUT
Im just askin me;
Why are Players, that have to make thoughts about engines, balanced loadouts, heatsinks etc not earned?
They got to aim, they are playin in the frontlines or at least in the forward 70% battlefield.
Instead, little noobs earn so much CBills, do so much DMG and all they got to do is to wait for a ******* red circle.
Just wanted to get rid of my frustration, because of LRMS i will never play this game again and i hope more ppl follow me and show the developers, that balance is a need for a good game,
This is NOT a good game.
Thx [redacted]
I would say that you are not a good player and want the game changed to fit your play style..... running around in the open call of duty style........
You know, last night I finished watching what at first seemed like the most ridiculous thing I had ever seen. "Girls und Panzer!"
Setting aside the whole driving tanks in skirts thing (I preferred military cap and coat girl and the volley ball girl tank team and the vehicle mechanics tank team who at least had the decency to wear pants or shorts) and significantly more common sense and safety in such a sport... I was watching the battles. The tactics used. The slow delays between firings. Moving in and attacking while the 'big tank' was reloading and using opportunities like "They just fired, now's our chance, MOVE!" reminded me a lot of closed beta.
The game was a lot more about tactics. With single heatsinks, even with the insanely fast firing rates most mechs simply could not shoot fast or they'd overheat. Hitting 80% heat was easy and while many were unaware of it, if you lingered above 80% heat too long your heatsinks and ammunition and weapons slowly started to take damage (at increments of 1 per second, since most things have 10 HP and what lost health when was completely random this wasn't a sudden occurrence). Many made up for it by chain firing instead. Especially since shutdowns could happen before 100% heat, albeit very rarely. Going past 100% was dangerous in the your ammunition could instantly take 10 damage and explode rather than your mech just took damage.
I was reminded of the very rich experiences I had back then. Especially when SRMs were absolutely devastating but took longer to reload than AC/20s. When LRMs took over 5 seconds to reload, went faster back then than they do now, and we had no AMS but could easily dodge them since powering down broke lock instantly and if you do it before the last 'path update', they didn't go directly at you.
But then... we found ways around it due to the insanely instant damage potential per shot instead of per time unit autocannons. (ACs are rated per unit of time, not per shot) With those rapid shots, we were able to exploit the system. This exploitation progressively got worse in my eyes as pilot skill trees were added.
An Atlas versus Atlas brawl in closed beta. My Atlas exploits the fact that autocannons are upfront and low heat.
Evidently from the LRM volley start of the first launcher to when it is fired again, was nearly 6 seconds back then. I even had to chain fire the AC/5 to beat the heat. Those that could fire it all at once were something like 5.75 seconds.
That poor Atlas had a 500,000+ repair bill due to that XL engine and that little bit of damage he took.
But I spent about 200,000+ in ammunition and minor repairs.
A different perspective on ACs.
Spoiler
(In lore, lasers were up front and high heat; which governed them. Their low tonnage made them appeal despite the risks.
Meanwhile ACs were multi-shot weapons requiring constant pelting, their high weight was daunting but their ability to remain heat neutral even with just 10 SHS and 4 low-rated ACs such as 2 AC/2s and 2 AC/5s are what made them appeal; even in spite of having to reload for long periods of time once their cassettes are spent.
Two simple examples:
The BJ-1's Whirlwind/L AC/2s (Books: Threads of Ambition and Blinding Force) are rated to do 0.2 damage per shot requiring 10 to do 2 damage but are belt fed. (No reload time, slower to fire though; per ton it had 450 bullets or '45' damage ratings).
From Sarna
Quote
The Blackjack carries two Whirlwind-L Autocannon/2s in either arm for long range, direct fire support. While these autocannons provide excellent reach and were sufficient for combating mostly non-'Mech insurgents, they lacked the firepower to deal with well-armored targets. Both weapons are fed from a single ton of ammo located within the center torso.
Even with Atlases sporting only 304 points of armor instead of 608 as they do in MWO, you weren't gonna take them down too well. It'd take about 3 minutes to kill the Atlas; which makes up for the fact that if the Atlas dies his repair costs would be about 3 to 15 times what the pilot's salary is.
But Locusts with 64 points of armor could take a pinpoint beating while standing still for more than 40 seconds before it would be destroyed. A Locust with 128 points of armor in MWO barely survives a single shot. And it's dirt cheap.
Now lets say the BJ-1DC uses AC/2s rated to do 0.25 damage per shot, requiring 8 shots to do 2 damage, faster firing in a burst, but longer reload time as magazines eject and new magazines are inserted from within. The BJ-1DC's AC/2 bullet caliber's real life comparison. It had 45 magazines per ton, 8 shots per magazine, 360 bullets, which amounts to 45 trigger pulls as they always spent the entire magazine on a trigger pull. (It doesn't actually use them, I'm comparing the Jager's but a Jager versus BJ fight isn't fair).
Because of the BJ-1DC's faster firing rate, it'll actually notice the heat spikes. However the forced wait times between firings to reload will allow it to cool back down. In a straight up fight using these two versions of AC/2s, the BJ-1DC's AC/2s deal their damage a LOT quicker. But then there's both a long period of being unable to fire them and a sharp recoil limiting the optimum range to 660 meters to nail all shots nearly pinpoint. Up against that BJ-1DC, however the BJ-1 has a solid, steady rate of fire of 1 shot per second and no negative recoil effects due to that rate and no need to stop firing and no reason to pause, generating only 0.1 heat per shot per AC/2. When the threshold is 30, that's a big deal.
But now, we have this. And I gotta say... the tactics are kinda lost to me.
Itsalrightwithme, on 07 May 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:
PGI won't change LRM anytime soon. LRM makes new players feel like they can do well. And we all know they need new players. It seems they got what they wanted, since in public matches I rarely see names I recognize anymore and most players move and shoot (and shutdown) like they are new.
In recent weeks lots of good players have fled to private lobbies and they do public matches only to earn CBills. Given that DMG arguably earns more CBills than kills, why bring anything other than LRM boats?
LocationUnder the floorboards looking for the Owner`s Manual
Posted 07 May 2014 - 09:23 AM
Soooo, let`s see if I get this right.
Some "kid" with no patience (that apparently also isn`t capable of embracing the suck in the spirit of getting better at something) can`t get past the N00b-filter (LRMS) and is qqing about it on teh forums? He`s leaving the game, he says?
I say good riddance. Because you dear sir are exactly the kind of mindless CoD-damaged "FPS-r00ler" that has been a thorn in real thinking mechwarrior`s sides since the dawn of open beta. One of the type that previously used your collective whining to bestow upon us such beautiful features as Skirmish, turrets in Assault, insane cap times on conquest... and then turn around and whine about the exact features whos absence your omniscience previously deemed to be game breaking.
Some people need to STFU and at least TRY to understand the game and get better, instead of just constantly complaining that their oh so OP top fuel funny car is losing to priuses and bicycles because the "stupid broken unbalanced" track has turns.
You know, last night I finished watching what at first seemed like the most ridiculous thing I had ever seen. "Girls und Panzer!"
That show is incredibly awesome. I can't wait for season 2.
Koniving, on 07 May 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:
This is unfortunate.
One good thing to ask is, "what makes players happy?" I like close matches when both sides play really well. Then win or lose doesn't even matter. When I get awed by players either on my side or opposite, then I am inspired to do well. I become unhappy when I have to put up mediocre matches. Of course it's worse when my team loses.
When I was still very very new and learning the game, I was happy whenever I thought I had figured something out. And maybe due to low expectations, at that point I was used to putting up with long strings of mediocre matches. Every once in a while I get lucky and manage to get a kill, and that was enough to keep me going for a while.
If the same delirium applies to many newer players, then LRMs are good for enabling their happiness. Sure, most of the time the opposing team will crush you, but every once in a while you are lucky that your teammates kept them far from your LRM boat and keep them targeted for you. Such that you could pound them from far away and get your kill or two.
We often say PGI is incompetent, but when it comes to this they may be playing smart (or as we say in Boston, "wicked smaht!"
Perhaps, but if we doubled LRM damage and made them take twice as long to fire a second time... when they do hit it's a reason to pop out the champaigne at the devastating blow dealt. And when they don't, well it's time to bite your tongue, relocate, and try again without spamming the heck out of them. It'd just be more satisfying than "I'm here; do my work for me and provide me with targets." "Oh, it's over already? I got a thousand damage for standing in one place holding a mouse button and intermittently pressing R and a kill or two and a lot of assists from my rivers of missiles flying through the air that I don't have to pay for. Pay me."
Or is it maybe I just found this a lot more satisfying.
Back when MGs did 0.04 damage (and 2 damage per 10 seconds) instead of 0.1 damage per bullet (and 10 damage in 10 seconds). It was HARD as heck to do.
Compared to the sometimes insane kills and but always insane damage numbers of sitting back and drinking coffee while reading celebrity gossip. It just isn't playing the game. It's relaxing.
And relaxing...makes me antsy because it then gets boring.
I think hitting your target should be a great "YEAH!" moment, and missing being one of those "God damn it! Alright, lets relocate and try it from here." Instead hitting your target is "meh" as it happens on going for what feels like hours, and missing is just "meh."
Those missiles did 1.6 damage per missile. Notice how they are barely doing anything?
There's a limit in the CryEngine to how many explosions can happen at once. Instead, they queue later when the target is moving. So the more flying through the air at once the less damage you do. So people chain fire them to make them annoying and constant.
Those missiles fired once every 5.something seconds instead of the faster rate we have now. Pretty spammy right?
What if they actually did something when you did hit (double the current 1.1 damage to between 2 and 2.2 damage per missile), but the LRM 5s could only fire once every 6.5 seconds (instead of 3.25 seconds) and the LRM 20s once every 9.5 seconds (instead of once every 4.75 seconds)? It'd actually relieve the fact that the game engine can't handle so many explosions at once, improving hit detection!
(You can even do the same thing to SRMs, cutting their firing speed down, but making them do 4 damage per missile, or keep them as is, faster firing at 2 damage per missile; to make them worth anything anyway you need to chain fire them).
Perhaps, but if we doubled LRM damage and made them take twice as long to fire a second time... when they do hit it's a reason to pop out the champaigne at the devastating blow dealt. And when they don't, well it's time to bite your tongue, relocate, and try again without spamming the heck out of them. It'd just be more satisfying than "I'm here; do my work for me and provide me with targets." "Oh, it's over already? I got a thousand damage for standing in one place holding a mouse button and intermittently pressing R and a kill or two and a lot of assists from my rivers of missiles flying through the air that I don't have to pay for. Pay me."
Or is it maybe I just found this a lot more satisfying.
Back when MGs did 0.04 damage (and 2 damage per 10 seconds) instead of 0.1 damage per bullet (and 10 damage in 10 seconds). It was HARD as heck to do.
Compared to the sometimes insane kills and but always insane damage numbers of sitting back and drinking coffee while reading celebrity gossip. It just isn't playing the game. It's relaxing.
And relaxing...makes me antsy because it then gets boring.
I think hitting your target should be a great "YEAH!" moment, and missing being one of those "God damn it! Alright, lets relocate and try it from here." Instead hitting your target is "meh" as it happens on going for what feels like hours, and missing is just "meh."
Those missiles did 1.6 damage per missile. Notice how they are barely doing anything?
There's a limit in the CryEngine to how many explosions can happen at once. Instead, they queue later when the target is moving. So the more flying through the air at once the less damage you do. So people chain fire them to make them annoying and constant.
Those missiles fired once every 5.something seconds instead of the faster rate we have now. Pretty spammy right?
What if they actually did something when you did hit (double the current 1.1 damage), but the LRM 5s could only fire once every 6.5 seconds (instead of 3.25 seconds) and the LRM 20s once every 9.5 seconds (instead of once every 4.75 seconds)? It'd actually relieve the fact that the game engine can't handle so many explosions at once, improving hit detection!
LocationUnder the floorboards looking for the Owner`s Manual
Posted 07 May 2014 - 10:13 AM
Koniving, on 07 May 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:
...
What if they actually did something when you did hit (double the current 1.1 damage), but the LRM 5s could only fire once every 6.5 seconds (instead of 3.25 seconds) and the LRM 20s once every 9.5 seconds (instead of once every 4.75 seconds)? It'd actually relieve the fact that the game engine can't handle so many explosions at once, improving hit detection!
Not really, becasue all 20 missiles from a volley would still be impacting at the same time. Not saying I dislike the idea, I`m still on the fence about it, I just don`t think hit detection would actually improve noticably without actual tweaks to the engine, becasue the amount of explosions /second on impact remains the same, but the event itself just happens less often.
Perhaps, but if we doubled LRM damage and made them take twice as long to fire a second time... when they do hit it's a reason to pop out the champaigne at the devastating blow dealt. And when they don't, well it's time to bite your tongue, relocate, and try again without spamming the heck out of them. It'd just be more satisfying than "I'm here; do my work for me and provide me with targets." "Oh, it's over already? I got a thousand damage for standing in one place holding a mouse button and intermittently pressing R and a kill or two and a lot of assists from my rivers of missiles flying through the air that I don't have to pay for. Pay me."
I like this idea. I think spamming LRM is not constructive to building skills. Although I personally prefer a decrease in ammo/ton. Make it more expensive to spam, encourage more tactical play in terms of TAG, LOS, position, timing, etc.
When is Girls und Panzer season 2 coming out? What if we could have Girls und Mechs?
I like my LRM boat. It makes me feel useful till I increase my skills. I empty my LRMs then rush in hoping to draw fire away from more competent players and give us a chance to win. This gives me practice with circle strafing and aiming. This game has a huge learning curve with the whole torsal twisting movement.
Agreed. When I am out of ammo and too far away from my turrets, I will go FORWARDS to the closest enemy to hug him with my 2 ERLLs. Sometimes I will punch through and kill them, but main reason is to stop his movement so my teammates will get few more seconds to shoot at him before I die...
Totally didn't need the full quote for that.
And I like hitting the nail on the head. I'm getting into game design and I'm young enough to still have an imagination to be able to envision things to see and 'feel' what it'd be like before slapping it down.
Truth be told.. someday, I'd like to see a Battletech game (not a mechwarrior game) that has infantry, tanks, aeroplanes, mechs, with the ability to play any of it.
Spoiler
You'll find me abandoning my Patton with the one guy out of 2 other crew members that made it out in time before it explodes, rushing past the battlefield 3/4/bad company 2 style environment destruction as a Blackjack spams its 10 shot = 2 damage AC/2s our way ripping up the concrete wall between us as it steps on a chain link fence.
Quick, kick down that door and take a moment to rest inside the building before a laser begins melting the metal wall. Bolt over the foyer's reception counter, shoot the door knob, slam into the door to open it and bust out the window before a nearby Manticore BLOWS the freaking wall with an SRM-6! Look behind me to see my other crewman didn't make it; dash out of sight and catch my breath briefly to figure out what to do next.
Find an abandoned Striker that's had its wheel blown out. No big deal, hop in as the gunner, pop up the battlegrid, set a ballistic launch angle to fire on where the Blackjack is still carving its way into the building and jump out to watch the missiles drop!
Whoosh! A PPC strike larger than 3 men standing on each other's shoulders flies by and destroys the Striker! Time to go, that Manticore wants me dead! See a Banshee sauntering by, a mech taser stuck in its hip. The thing is limping, many of its systems temporarily disabled. The pilot's a stubborn one, though, unwilling to give it up. That's when Fortune made me decide that it was time to act. No, not Lady Fortune. The freaking 4 wheeled double barrel shotgun of death with a pair of sadistic screwballs enjoying the fact that you can blow up just about everything in sight! Nothing says "Screw this, it's time to steal someone's mech" like having a 4 wheeled 80 ton vehicle casually driving your way with twin LB-10s blasting every building because it's "fun." Ain't no hiding in a building from that, I tell ya.
So, Batman style grapling hook, it's time to climb a Banshee and pop the cockpit open to shoot the guy inside! Can't dally for long though, HQ is reporting that the enemy has lowered the main gate and disabled the turrets.
Screen credit Haruko.
Itsalrightwithme, on 07 May 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:
I like this idea. I think spamming LRM is not constructive to building skills. Although I personally prefer a decrease in ammo/ton. Make it more expensive to spam, encourage more tactical play in terms of TAG, LOS, position, timing, etc.
When is Girls und Panzer season 2 coming out? What if we could have Girls und Mechs?
Didn't know it would be coming out. Considering how old the first one is, well. Yeah.
Truth be told.. someday, I'd like to see a Battletech game (not a mechwarrior game) that has infantry, tanks, aeroplanes, mechs, with the ability to play any of it.
6
MischiefSC, on 04 May 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:
repair bill due to that XL engine and that little bit of damage he took. 
