196 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Itsalrightwithme, on 10 May 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

Come on now, enough with the posturing.

Not to defend Victor Morson's pov but this game isn't a set of neatly 1v1 engagement. The point of having a fast LRM medium mech is that it could get away back to friendly lines and let somebody else take care of the Locust. He was banned from before the time LRM speed got a big buff, so his posts have to be considered in light of how the game was at the time it was written.

With the much higher LRM speed we have today it is much harder to run an effective medium LRM mech against assault LRM mech, this is fact. Prior to speed buff, at 400m you could launch your LRMs and get behind cover in the time it takes their LRM to hit you. With Adv Target Decay you keep your lock and get good hits while his/her missiles hit terrain in front of you. With the speed buff you have to be farther back to be able to do this consistently.

His guide was very much written with maneuver in mind, both yours, and the target's, and the opposing LRM boat's, all normalized to LRM speed. So if one variable changes, it has to be re-considered. Everybody can benefit from that level of thoughtfulness in analysis, even if other assumptions differ and the conclusions are different.

No one was talking about medium LRM boats. The point that we had (and decided to drop the discussion on) was that LRM boats should have back up weapons. Nothing was said about mech weight classes, or anything like that. The discussion was dropped because he's not playing the game anymore, won't be able to defend his point, and name and shame still applies, even if he had left.

The game isn't always 1v1 engagements, but 1v1s still happen quite often. Even if for a short period of time.

[kesuga7]

grab some buddies all with dual ams
in your free thunderbolt 9s

run 6-8 AMS systems

shoot down about lrm 37 ish with 6 AMS before they hit

8 AMS will shootdown about lrm 50 ish?

no more lrm troubles again



because your ECM atlas ddc isn't protected from my narc , tag ecm raven

Edited by kesuga7, 10 May 2014 - 06:22 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

kesuga7, on 10 May 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

grab some buddies all with dual ams
in your free thunderbolt 9s

run 6-8 AMS systems

shoot down about lrm 37 ish with 6 AMS before they hit

8 AMS will shootdown about lrm 50 ish?

Without counting ER module on AMS, which makes it even better.

[LiGhtningFF13]

Frustration thread number, ehm ?! Don't know stopped counting, just an thread of endless ones I guess.

[Vermaxx]

LRMs are finally AMAZINGLY WORTH USING. They make my Hunch SP really one of my best mechs and it's only 50 tons.

They need to cost reloads. I haven't seen the same level of cost-to-weight ratio out of anything else. People point out poptart builds. Poptarts need jet mechs, and aim. LRMs don't, they BENEFIT from spotters and line of sight but they don't require anything. They excel at blind fire and direct fire, with artemis and without, TAG/NARC or none.

I think we need ammo costs again, something to make LRMs more of a choice rather than an automatic response.

[Navy Sixes]

dbassa, on 03 May 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

I'm a player who got frustrated (probably a pop-tart meta thug) because LRMs aren't garbage anymore, and I can't stand off at a distance and waste people with impunity. Frankly, LRMs don't deserve to kill me.

Anyway, I was so angry for a moment that I was going to rage quit. Then I realized that I don't really want to uninstall over this, but I still want to make PGI think that people are going to uninstall over this. So I made this here dummy account and I'm going to burn-out on the forums and then uninstall through it instead. It's really liberating... since this dummy account is going to die within the hour, I don't have to spell-check or anything! Once I've taken my stand, laid out my convictions, and with heavy heart closed down this dummy account, I'm going to go back to my game. That'll show 'em!

I hope people will join this dummy account I have created in quitting the game while I continue to play.

FIFY

[Alaskan Nobody]

IraqiWalker, on 10 May 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

The game isn't always 1v1 engagements, but 1v1s still happen quite often. Even if for a short period of time.

Indeed - I had several 1v1 Huginn vs Ember matches last night - on both sides of the fence (and Huginn is no where near the crap people try to say it is either )

Not as good on paper as Ember, mind you, but not bad either.

Tycho von Gagern, on 10 May 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

FIFY

[shellashock]

Regarding the limitations Cryengine had on the number of explosions that could be registered at once, has anyone noticed a difference since the May 1st patch that supposedly fixed an issue with how many explosions could be registered at once. Does this mean that the maximum number of explosions that could be registered at once was not getting reached and now is reaching that limit, or does it mean that the limit for the maximum number of explosions that can registered at once has been pushed higher?

[Koniving]

Itsalrightwithme, on 10 May 2014 - 04:25 AM, said:

You're talking mostly top tiers where the entire meta is about exploiting mechanics. Most typical poptarts aren't quite at that level. And if you bring an LRM boat to that level without the increase in damage but reduction in firing rate I mentioned, you're screwed anyway unless you have many of them.

Truth be told, many lower end poptarts don't move much because the LRM spam is so bad. And then they complain if there isn't enough LRM spammers to keep the poptarts from flanking them.

Now at that level of play, an LRM boat after the idea would be a very vital asset that needs a good bead on a target, fires rarely but when it does (and hits) it'd be devastating. You'd want to defend it. Keep it safe. Much like a 6 PPC Stalker back in the day, you'd want to use it to quickly annihilate heavily armored targets but need to protect it from enemies.

I miss the tactical days. A single LRM boat in competitive play. Open Beta.

Similar setup. The boat wasn't protected.


We no longer have insanely slow missiles, no longer have "instantly lost locks." So the need to fire again so quickly isn't required anymore. Just enhance damage, slow down the firing rate to remove the rivers of missiles, we've got target decay modules letting us keep a lock for 3 seconds after losing it. NARCs that give us 20 to 30 seconds free lockable time. UAVs to counter ECM. A thousand ECM counters (or so it feels).
--------
I'd just like to see a cut back from firing larger LRMs 3 times in 10 seconds to 2 times. It'd also cut the mass LRM-5 boats from firing 4 times in 10 seconds to twice, preventing the advantageous mass spam they get. Such a simple thing in exchange for double damage and a little more flight speed (if even necessary) just doesn't strike me as too much to ask.

6 PPC builds? Very easy to counter and such as a single player, but got nerfed into the ground.
When 2 PPCs + a Gauss became a bit much, the Gauss became nerfed. It wasn't even that bad and the Gauss was easy to destroy instantly killing them at times.
4 to 6 AC/2s? Great fun, very weak but 'annoying' spammery build. It was pleasantly annoying, though. It got nerfed.

Right now LRMs are fine, but the spam is not. It makes LRMs feel weak when they are not. It takes away from hit detection if it is constantly going on. It doesn't 'look' good on video anymore. In general I think the spam -- and the spam alone -- is hurting the experience. Weapons should enrich the experience, not hurt it. They should add strategies, not remove them.

Truth be told, if LRMs were made to require twice as much reload time (in exchange for twice as much damage per missile), not only would it make LRM boats more tactical, but it would significantly increase the tactical value of Spotter technologies like TAG, NARC, and UAVs to the point that they would be more likely to be seen in the field. At least I know if I wanted LRM support to help me (instead of spam the enemy to the point that I'm constantly hit by the friendly missiles), I'd bring a TAG or NARC, mark the target and get out of dodge.

I also believe that with less frequency to fire, light mechs would be able to actually more effectively dodge enemy LRM fire, which is necessary since we often depend on light mechs to eliminate LRM boats when nothing else can get close enough.

Edited by Koniving, 10 May 2014 - 10:53 AM.

[wanderer]

Vermaxx, on 10 May 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

LRMs are finally AMAZINGLY WORTH USING. They make my Hunch SP really one of my best mechs and it's only 50 tons.

They need to cost reloads. I haven't seen the same level of cost-to-weight ratio out of anything else. People point out poptart builds. Poptarts need jet mechs, and aim. LRMs don't, they BENEFIT from spotters and line of sight but they don't require anything. They excel at blind fire and direct fire, with artemis and without, TAG/NARC or none.

I think we need ammo costs again, something to make LRMs more of a choice rather than an automatic response.

LRMs were such expensive ammo that people took extra ammo- so they'd be able to function on the 75% free reloads. Otherwise, the costs were so prohibitive you were literally throwing money at opponents and lost money playing matches on wins while taking no damage yourself.

You'd literally have gold ammo for MWO at that point, a disgusting state of affairs when a weapon system is only available to those who can make the massive bank to maintain it....considering I could go a full round in MWO and WIN and lose money using missiles with R&R.

Koniving, on 10 May 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

Truth be told, if LRMs were made to require twice as much reload time (in exchange for twice as much damage per missile), not only would it make LRM boats more tactical, but it would significantly increase the tactical value of Spotter technologies like TAG, NARC, and UAVs to the point that they would be more likely to be seen in the field. At least I know if I wanted LRM support to help me (instead of spam the enemy to the point that I'm constantly hit by the friendly missiles), I'd bring a TAG or NARC, mark the target and get out of dodge.

Go ahead, double my reload time, but if it kills my damage...you've just sent LRMs back to the stone age.

If you didn't, I'm not worried. I never relied on shake spam and frankly, I murder many more foolish lights as it is. If I only get one shot at twice the damage, on many targets that's better....because my smarter targets are already heading into cover after the first shot and with higher damage/missile, it means I effectively got twice the hits (if damage is maintained) in half the time vs. what I used to. I played with slower LRMs with a bigger punch before. They're good too, though I would rather see something in between- if you bring LRMs up to 1.6 again, you just tweak cycle times 40% or so accordingly.

Expect people to QQ even more, though, as that'll mean a boat can swat lighter targets with one solid TAG-lockon salvo.

Edited by wanderer, 10 May 2014 - 01:09 PM.

[Navy Sixes]

wanderer, on 10 May 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

Go ahead, double my reload time, but if it kills my damage...you've just sent LRMs back to the stone age.

Yeah, this. It would, as Koniving suggests, get rid of the spam, which I agree really gives LRMs a bad rep. My concern is that big-boxers like me would really get punished for LRMishing with LOS at 200-300m. The damage would be great, especially at the end of a match against tore-up targets, but when you have to deal with a fresh assault at that range, the slow ROF will really hurt.

[Koniving]

wanderer, on 10 May 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

With double the reload time, it'd be double the damage, but it'd be up to you to make those shots count.

You brought up something interesting, actually. LRMs were expensive before the free reloads, and the free reloads broke the system to remove it completely.

But what if R&R came back? With double damage, double reload time... you don't need so many missiles. That means not so many costs, and those missiles of yours? Too precious to simply waste. Back then with poor hit detection, a missile did about 1.8 damage. Currently they do 1.1 damage but fire too often, requiring too many missiles for R&R. Here, it'd be 2.2 damage with great hit detection and a tactical element. After all this was advertised as the "Thinking Person's Shooter."

And yes, something in between could work. But it'd be hard to maintain the DPS; something would suffer.

I personally like using an LRM-20 + some streaks. It's satisfying, but at the same time it's not. It's point and click for me, and I think having the missiles be more powerful yet take longer to throw out there would do that.

Now, as a light, you just have to play smart. Against my Griffin, that LRM-20 after double-double would need 9.5 seconds to fire again. That's 9.5 seconds for you to rush from that spot 900 meters away and get too close for me to fire again or into good cover. And if you're caught by the missiles? Well sucks to be you, but thankfully without the rivers they will be so much easier to dodge than this.

(And that was easier to dodge than what I'm seeing now; see that gap? It's gone since the LRM buffs.)

[Koniving]

Tycho von Gagern, on 10 May 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Yeah, this. It would, as Koniving suggests, get rid of the spam, which I agree really gives LRMs a bad rep. My concern is that big-boxers like me would really get punished for LRMishing with LOS at 200-300m. The damage would be great, especially at the end of a match against tore-up targets, but when you have to deal with a fresh assault at that range, the slow ROF will really hurt.

Technically it should be the same rate, just sooner instead of over time.

Lets say you have 2 LRM-15s.
Currently that's 4.25 seconds between volleys. Lets assume you fire them at once.

Engagement begins. 300 meters. Lets assume the fight lasts exactly 4 firing cycles.
0 seconds: Fire 2 LRM-15s. 30*1.1 = 33 damage. (I assume other weapons fire too).
4.25 seconds: Fire 2 LRM-15s. 30*1.1 = 33 damage. (I assume other weapons fire too).
8.5 seconds: Fire 2 LRM-15s. 30*1.1 = 33 damage. (I assume other weapons fire too).
12.75 seconds: Fire 2 LRM-15s. 30*1.1 = 33 damage. (I assume other weapons fire too).

In total you did 132 damage in 12.75 seconds with 2 LRM-15s.

Now, if we double-double?
0 seconds: Fire 2 LRM-15s. 30*2.2 = 66 damage. (I assume other weapons fire too).
4.25 seconds: Still reloading.
8.5 seconds: Fire 2 LRM-15s. 30*2.2 = 66 damage. (I assume other weapons fire too).
12.75 seconds: Still reloading, but he be dead now under otherwise the same conditions.

132 damage in the same period of time.

Honestly you hit a lot harder when you do, but if that enemy got into minimum range when you went to fire that second time it'd save him from the impeneding damage onslaught. The idea is to give them a chance. At the same time, since heat hasn't changed per volley, this lightens the load on LRM-skirmishers. Would have to see if it would need the heat doubled too or not.

What's important is that you're not 'locking' the enemy behind a piece of cover that isn't working to protect him or her. Nor annoying them to no end (most people would rather die quick than spend 'days' being pelted by something that just doesn't stop before they die). This allows them to be mobile, reducing the 'stalemates' where no one wants to move. In fact how much it hurts will make players move because it won't be "safer" to 'camp out'.

With the spam gone, it also removes the visual dismay and as Tycho here said the 'bad reputation' of LRMs and subsequent "...wow, really? That was lame, I'm going to die sometime soon, right? Maybe I should get some coffee, this is gonna take a while," reaction which comes after seeing the sun blotted out only to spend 30 seconds 'gradually' dying while unable to do anything about it. Here, it'll hit like a freight train with much fewer missiles to get a proper "Oh !!" reaction. But, you'll have lots of time to slip from cover to cover to get close to an LRM boat and deal with them. Like a ninja. Unless they play smart and time it just right, then that boat's gonna ruin your day.

Edited by Koniving, 10 May 2014 - 02:00 PM.

[Thunder Child]

And this is why I vote koniving for Mayor of Balance Town. Everything you post (that I've read, at least) seems to be exactly what the game needs, to be "fixed". Whether it be LRM fixes, the AC Burst idea, realistic movement sway, it all just seems so sensible.

[MortVent]

Easier to add ghost heat to lrm5s so it's okay to mount 2-3 but beyond that the heat spike is there. Because the major problem is the chain fire of smaller launchers.

[IraqiWalker]

Thunder Child, on 11 May 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

And this is why I vote koniving for Mayor of Balance Town. Everything you post (that I've read, at least) seems to be exactly what the game needs, to be "fixed". Whether it be LRM fixes, the AC Burst idea, realistic movement sway, it all just seems so sensible.

The AC burst is how ACs actually functioned in the BT universe. Thankfully, Clan ACs are supposed to function properly. It's kind of hillarious that the best way to fix the current way the ACs are functioning and all their problems, is to just implement them the way the actually worked.

[ConRein]

I am not the best of players, being that I only recently returned to the cockpit of a 'mech after more than a decade's worth of retirement, and not so sure about a lot of things about the game (if I lke it or not) but like others have said, give it more than only twenty minutes. You are only playing right now with the basic equipment, try leveling a few things up first, and see how you go in more matches.

[Footupyzz]

dbassa, on 03 May 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Hey

i rly liked this game, as i liked all the MW games before this.

BUT

Im just askin me;

Why are Players, that have to make thoughts about engines, balanced loadouts, heatsinks etc not earned?

They got to aim, they are playin in the frontlines or at least in the forward 70% battlefield.

Instead, little noobs earn so much CBills, do so much DMG and all they got to do is to wait for a ******* red circle.

Just wanted to get rid of my frustration, because of LRMS i will never play this game again and i hope more ppl follow me and show the developers, that balance is a need for a good game,

This is NOT a good game.

Thx [redacted]

if they gave you the feeling they were OP...it's probably that there were a lot of lrm support on the enemy side...then it only looks like LRM's are OP.
Cause lrm supprt players need to have skill in firering their lrm's and when they do not LOS themselfs, they are depended on their teammates to do the locking and hope that the targeted enemy is not in cover.
Play more matches and you will see that LRM's are not OP.
And play a LRM supporter yourself you'll see that firing lrm's is easy when you lock an enemy....but the skill is that the LRM's you fire hit the target.
Anyway goodluck and see ya soon back:P

Oh yeah and about those LRM-5 boats.....well yup they can be a pain in the azz...but if ya stay with ya lance and they got ams equiped (and you 2)....those LRM-5 boats are not that hard cause ams will intercept these lrms easy

Edited by Footupyazz, 12 May 2014 - 04:11 AM.

[HighTest]

wanderer, on 10 May 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

Expect people to QQ even more, though, as that'll mean a boat can swat lighter targets with one solid TAG-lockon salvo.

I think this sums it up best. If you double the damage of LRMs, that first salvo is going to be murder.

Let's assume you can do 30 damage with an LRM salvo currently over 4 seconds. You hit your target for 30 -- now they have 4 secs to duck and cover, possibly mitigating damage to 30. If they get hit again, then it's 60.

Now, let's make that a 60 damage hit with 8 second recycle. Sure, the target has 8 seconds now to run and hide after that first hit. But since that first salvo just ripped a leg off, so the extra time really won't matter. Remember, most lights and mediums would have a rough time with a 2xLRM20 hit with those kind of numbers.

The 4sec recycle isn't so much the issue -- it's the 0.5 sec LRM spam-ability. Reduce / eliminate that, and LRMs are fine as is.

[IraqiWalker]

HighTest, on 12 May 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

I think this sums it up best. If you double the damage of LRMs, that first salvo is going to be murder.

Let's assume you can do 30 damage with an LRM salvo currently over 4 seconds. You hit your target for 30 -- now they have 4 secs to duck and cover, possibly mitigating damage to 30. If they get hit again, then it's 60.

Now, let's make that a 60 damage hit with 8 second recycle. Sure, the target has 8 seconds now to run and hide after that first hit. But since that first salvo just ripped a leg off, so the extra time really won't matter. Remember, most lights and mediums would have a rough time with a 2xLRM20 hit with those kind of numbers.

The 4sec recycle isn't so much the issue -- it's the 0.5 sec LRM spam-ability. Reduce / eliminate that, and LRMs are fine as is.

I disagree. You see with multiple salvos, the target being able to dodge is negated. I could care less if 15 of my 50 missile salvo missed, right now. Because by the time that first salvo lands, I have 2 more already in the air, on their way, and with Target decay, they are almost guaranteed to hit as well. So over all I will not be affected by the enemy's skill. The current system does not reward the players for dodging a salvo properly.

With double-double, if I miss, that is an actual hit to my DPS, and it will give my target some breathing room. It will also allow mechs to actually stand a chance if they decided to charge me, instead of it being an almost automatic death sentence.