162 replies to this topic

[GreyGriffin]

The thing that drives me insane about the jump snipe meta is that despite everyone considering it an uber skill and a valid strategy, it's really got no place in traditional battletech gameplay or lore.

Jump jets are for mobility. You use them to ascend cliffs, to cross woods, to jump over buildings and find cover. Jump jets are largely the purview of light and medium 'mechs, who use the erratic mobility granted by jump jets to move swiftly from cover to cover and avoid incoming fire from heavier 'mechs.

In BTech, if you want to snipe, you stand still, find partial cover, and keep both feet firmly on the ground.

I know I will hear a million whines about how Jump Sniping is an important part of the game, and to that I call complete hockey. A kill from the apex of your jump jets should be a one in a million shot that you talk about for months afterwards.

So much about the whole meta could be fixed if jump jets did what they were designed to do. Instead of nerfing weapons fire while jetting, they nerfed the crap out of the jets, so jump jets are useless for mobility and defensive maneuvering.

[Adiuvo]

Ningyo, on 11 May 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

Except DaZur you only don't find them often in Mid-Elo play because it is really OP and they move into higher brackets quickly.

I PUG exclusively so far thus my ELO cannot rise above high-mid level (I often get a loss doing 600-1000 dmg, even if you are top dmg/kills on your team every single match you will only average a 1.3-1.5 W/L if you drop solo). At my ELO I see poptarts or groups of them every 3-4 matches and they nearly always are all at the very top in dmg/kills.

there are exceptions since again if they drop solo they could have really bad team and no support but thats a separate issue.

When I solo I average a 3.2 W/L. I only play light mechs.

Edited by Adiuvo, 12 May 2014 - 12:29 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Never have seen poptarter being successful in PUG games - hell even have seen an enemy team with "possible" 3 Highlander and 3 Shadow Hawks Poptarters - and our PUG team did eat them alive.

Problem is - poptarting seems to be the only way to go in Competive 12vs12 games - (I don't participate only see the high ranking teams jump sniping each other - on several vids)

So PGI should really took only the "vanilla" competive crowd for balancing - simple reason - both teams have equally state of coordination and communication. If you can remove the ability of a specified deck winning over another deck - you have balance.

And the best way to nerf poptarts is to buff JumpJets. Full thrust and a kick in the rear and you are 20m in the air - no short rising of your crosshair - till your guns look over the ridge.

[Khobai]

Quote

And the best way to nerf poptarts is to buff JumpJets. Full thrust and a kick in the rear and you are 20m in the air - no short rising of your crosshair - till your guns look over the ridge.

The best way to nerf poptarting is to disable the ability to fire weapons while jumping.

[Karl Streiger]

Khobai, on 12 May 2014 - 12:42 AM, said:

The best way to nerf poptarting is to disable the ability to fire weapons while jumping.

There is no reason to do that

[Joseph Mallan]

I faced my first coordinated Jump Sniper team. It was... Impressive. Seeing a Wolverine, Cataphract and a Griffin popping up Whack a mole style. It was coordinated, frustrating, and my own fault for staying to duke it out when the second then third Jumper joined the party. I can see why less patient players would complain about it in a coordinated attack, but I was impressed seeing a well organized Mech Berm Drill.

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 May 2014 - 02:35 AM, said:

I faced my first coordinated Jump Sniper team. It was... Impressive. Seeing a Wolverine, Cataphract and a Griffin popping up Whack a mole style. It was coordinated, frustrating, and my own fault for staying to duke it out when the second then third Jumper joined the party. I can see why less patient players would complain about it in a coordinated attack, but I was impressed seeing a well organized Mech Berm Drill.

That's the thing Joe... Folks want to nerf the tactic instead of understand it, figure out it's inherent weakness and utilize the appropriate counter-tactic.

Absolutely jump-snipers are frustrating beyond all get out...

The problem is few people understand it takes teamwork to defeat coordinated poptarts and fewer still have the patience to put aside their individual ego to play as a team.

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 12 May 2014 - 03:46 AM, said:

That's the thing Joe... Folks want to nerf the tactic instead of understand it, figure out it's inherent weakness and utilize the appropriate counter-tactic.

Absolutely jump-snipers are frustrating beyond all get out...

The problem is few people understand it takes teamwork to defeat coordinated poptarts and fewer still have the patience to put aside their individual ego to play as a team.

Unfortunately those few were not the ones who ran away once the Popping started.

Karl Streiger, on 12 May 2014 - 01:00 AM, said:

There is no reason to do that

Actually there is a reason... it's not a good one, but a reason none the less.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 May 2014 - 03:53 AM, said:

Actually there is a reason... it's not a good one, but a reason none the less.

Disabling weapon fire in mid air will also hit other Mechs, maybe those others even more.
(A poptarter is still a capable sniper that can reach some good positions)

I could live with disabling weapon fire in mid air - if my Wolverine would be able to fly 150m into the rear of an enemy - it can't so i need to hop while closing....

Edited by Karl Streiger, 12 May 2014 - 04:01 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 12 May 2014 - 03:59 AM, said:

Disabling weapon fire in mid air - will also hit - other Mechs, maybe those others even more.

I could live with disabling weapon fire in mid air - if my Wolverine would be able to fly 150m into the rear of an enemy - it can't so i need to hop while closing....

I also didn't say You'd like the reason.

Do understand I am not strongly or even mildly supporting the "reason" just saying it exists.

[Kutfroat]

would be so easy: disable all weapons while using jumpjets. fixed.

in this way they would serve the purpose they are intended for, getting onto higher ground. and maybe to take a look over a hill/ridge to spot enemies.

[Kain]

If you watch or play 12v12 you will always see the same game sequence.
Both teams will blob together and start digging in, with some lights circling around.

And then the only way to get some shots out, is to poptart so you can damage the enemy team until you did enough damage so your team can have the upper hand in the brawling game.

- disabling weapons during jumping is stupid and will hurt the light mechs
- poptarting is not a problem (definitely not in pug matches), the problem is how the competitive gameplay is becoming pretty repetitive, (watch the 12v12 twitchs, all blobbing up and poptarting until one team has the upper hand, no further tactics needed)

[Karl Streiger]

Kutfroat, on 12 May 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

would be so easy: disable all weapons while using jumpjets. fixed.

in this way they would serve the purpose they are intended for, getting onto higher ground. and maybe to take a look over a hill/ridge to spot enemies.

Why do you want it so difficult?

There is a much simpler fix - Remove Jumpjets at all

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 12 May 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

Why do you want it so difficult?

There is a much simpler fix - Remove Jumpjets at all

JJ are a maneuvering asset.

[Bishop Steiner]

Karl Streiger, on 12 May 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

Why do you want it so difficult?

There is a much simpler fix - Remove Jumpjets at all

and totally break how many designs? JJs serve very good, non abusive purposes. The issue is, and always has been pinpoint convergence and targeting. So fixes that address that are what is needed, not heavy handed ideas that don't.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 May 2014 - 04:21 AM, said:

JJ are a maneuvering asset.

??? Not yet - i have problems to even climb those walls at canyon, not to mention when you have the problem to get stacked.... you need a lot of jj fuel to get your mech free....

Currently I'm not convinced that the JumpJets are worth for anything else but pop tarting. (difference between me an them - I'm poptarting below 270m )

Bishop Steiner, on 12 May 2014 - 04:23 AM, said:

and totally break how many designs? JJs serve very good, non abusive purposes. The issue is, and always has been pinpoint convergence and targeting. So fixes that address that are what is needed, not heavy handed ideas that don't.

Next time i add smiley's. Removing the ability to fire weapons midair is a stupid as removing them at all.

If the trust of JJs is strongly increased (hit space and find you self 18-24m in mid air - popstarting is hardly possible - and if (you are exposed)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 12 May 2014 - 04:26 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

DaZur, on 12 May 2014 - 03:46 AM, said:

That's the thing Joe... Folks want to nerf the tactic instead of understand it, figure out it's inherent weakness and utilize the appropriate counter-tactic.

Absolutely jump-snipers are frustrating beyond all get out...

The problem is few people understand it takes teamwork to defeat coordinated poptarts and fewer still have the patience to put aside their individual ego to play as a team.

can't force coordination on PUGs. Wish you could, but you can't. Can apply intelligent ideas to provide a balancer that doesn't destroy the tactic, but does lessen it, both in PUG and 12 man queues. Thus, that would be the desirable course. Simple fact, something does not become the dominant meta by being remotely balanced. Things will never be perfectly balanced, but that is no reason not to balance what can be, and can be accomplished easily with existing game mechanics.

Karl Streiger, on 12 May 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

??? Not yet - i have problems to even climb those walls at canyon, not to mention when you have the problem to get stacked.... you need a lot of jj fuel to get your mech free....

Currently I'm not convinced that the JumpJets are worth for anything else but pop tarting. (difference between me an them - I'm poptarting below 270m )



Next time i add smiley's. Removing the ability to fire weapons midair is a stupid as removing them at all.

If the trust of JJs is strongly increased (hit space and find you self 18-24m in mid air - popstarting is hardly possible - and if (you are exposed)

Mount more JJs. I can get on top of the walls in HPG with my Griffin. I can also jump from below to carport on top of it, in Crimson Strait. That is plenty of maneuver capability. Not to the degree of TT, (I do remember watching 12 jj spiders dang near launch to the moon way back when, lol), but hardly for poptarts only. Heck, even with the current Assault Mech JJ nerfs, I still find it far easier to navigate maps, like Canyon Network with JJs, though they certainly are just barely worth it on an Assault now.

[Karl Streiger]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 May 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:

Mount more JJs. I can get on top of the walls in HPG with my Griffin. I can also jump from below to carport on top of it, in Crimson Strait. That is plenty of maneuver capability. Not to the degree of TT, (I do remember watching 12 jj spiders dang near launch to the moon way back when, lol), but hardly for poptarts only. Heck, even with the current Assault Mech JJ nerfs, I still find it far easier to navigate maps, like Canyon Network with JJs, though they certainly are just barely worth it on an Assault now.

have the full load of JJs available on both Victors(4tons) and a Heavy Metal (10tons)
The cost/reward is acceptable - for the Victors (although the 3D for 4tons is much more agile) while the HGN is a bad bad joke.

No problems on Wolverines (7 JJs) -> My concern is founded that the last JJs nerfs reduced the ability to use JJs as valuable asset for "highly" increased mobility - but did not hit the ability to use them for pop shots.

- on a second though - the weight for JumpJets is not really balanced. They were balanced in TT (because a average 3/5 90t and above assault mech did get extra ordinary mobility with even only two jump jets)

[crossflip]

Disabling weapons while in the air is an extreme measure that would hurt a whole bunch of other things, mainly lights. I spend most of my time as a firestarter airborne, I'd dread to think of how this would hurt spider pilots.

Heat generation from JJs, increased heat from weapons while using JJs, or a cone of fire while using JJs might be better answers.

[Bishop Steiner]

Karl Streiger, on 12 May 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

have the full load of JJs available on both Victors(4tons) and a Heavy Metal (10tons)
The cost/reward is acceptable - for the Victors (although the 3D for 4tons is much more agile) while the HGN is a bad bad joke.

No problems on Wolverines (7 JJs) -> My concern is founded that the last JJs nerfs reduced the ability to use JJs as valuable asset for "highly" increased mobility - but did not hit the ability to use them for pop shots.

- on a second though - the weight for JumpJets is not really balanced. They were balanced in TT (because a average 3/5 90t and above assault mech did get extra ordinary mobility with even only two jump jets)

Oh I totally agree that all of Pauls "fixes" on the VTR and HGN to "reduce" poptarting actually hurt brawling more, and forced both chassis even more into the poptart role, even if they are not quite as efficient at it, anymore...they are still far more viable poptarts than brawlers (doubly so with the agility nerfs that hurt them as brawlers many times more than as poptarts, and all the more so for the VTR which is now less agile than a HGN, though a slightly better jumper still. All the while, the Cataphract 3D still bounces like a ballerina)

crossflip, on 12 May 2014 - 04:37 AM, said:

Disabling weapons while in the air is an extreme measure that would hurt a whole bunch of other things, mainly lights. I spend most of my time as a firestarter airborne, I'd dread to think of how this would hurt spider pilots.

Heat generation from JJs, increased heat from weapons while using JJs, or a cone of fire while using JJs might be better answers.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3364983