That's the thing Joe... Folks want to nerf the tactic instead of understand it, figure out it's inherent weakness and utilize the appropriate counter-tactic.
Absolutely jump-snipers are frustrating beyond all get out...
The problem is few people understand it takes teamwork to defeat coordinated poptarts and fewer still have the patience to put aside their individual ego to play as a team.
Hey guys,
yeah, faced a good team of tarts yesterday. Very coordinated and deadly. Ate my slow a$$ up in seconds. LOL
I also faced some less coordinated tarts as well and ate them up with LRMs + TAG.
In both cases it was Focused Fire and Teamwork that won the day.
LocationPacifica Training School, waiting for BakPhar shares to rise
Posted 12 May 2014 - 06:28 AM
Gas Guzzler, on 11 May 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:
1.7 meters is typically enough to separate between two components. I have used it, and that has been my experience.
That's a little optimistic. Plus, if the target isn't on a perpendicular course, that number shrinks even more -- 45 degrees, 1.2 meters. Thirty points of damage, great range, pinpoint as pure gravy.
Which raises the question: why does the target have to diligently run for his life all the time? And the answer is because, as you note, front-loaded damage, especially pinpoint, is dominant at any range.
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Overall, I am of the opinion that pinpoint damage is not something that should be removed.
I can't hold that against you, but it's the single most controversial, unintended mechanic that (as noted above) departs from expectations of playing live-action BattleTech.
That's the thing Joe... Folks want to nerf the tactic instead of understand it, figure out it's inherent weakness and utilize the appropriate counter-tactic.
Absolutely jump-snipers are frustrating beyond all get out...
The problem is few people understand it takes teamwork to defeat coordinated poptarts and fewer still have the patience to put aside their individual ego to play as a team.
I come across posts like this and they make me wonder, whether the person who posted this is being disingenuous because they like pop tarting and don't want it changed or they play the game at such a low level that they don't often come across games with 5+ dragon slayers while pugging. Being a decidedly average pilot myself, I'm going to assume the former.
What do people think about increasing heat while JJ'ing by a large amount. This way if you want to jump snipe with PPC's your dps will go way down. While this would do nothing against the jump snipe dual gauss CTF-3Ds, they have their own set of weaknesses.
This forum is full of folks who complain about stuff because they can't shoot.
That marksmanship doesn't take a lot of practice.
I'll tell you what does--try playing Team Fortress 2 as a Soldier or Demoman and scoring consistent, repeatable airshots with your rocket launcher or grendade launcher (not pipebombs) and the following those shots up with not one, but at least two follow-up airshots, killing them before they land.
Do this over and over. And over. Until you don't miss.
THAT is hard.
I have competed at the top levels in TF 2 and won Platinum-level leagues. As a Soldier, it is your responsibility to be able to do this. This means you must airshot from not just some angles, but from ALL angles and all situations. You have to even be able to knock people into the air and then take them down. You have to be able to shoot them out of the air when they are moving towards and away.
The skill required to do this consistently is extremely challenging to master. Far, far harder than anything MWO has ever presented. We're not talking a week or two of practice here--we are talking months or years of dedication with constant refresher practicing all the time to stay on top of it. And then, when you face someone else who can do the same thing... you have to raise it to an even HIGHER level.
MWO is light on skill when it comes to marksmanship. This game is easy mode.
3rdworld is right--if played properly, meta snipers have no weakness other than the matchmaker. If spread correctly, a four man of meta snipers will decimate a four man of brawlers every single time.
That isn't balance, that is an imbalance. Even if the four man of brawlers gets in close, they are still dead because three, if not four of them can still pinpoint damage and take them down. The brawlers don't have a chance.
From watching 12 man matches you can see the way to win consistently is still jump sniping with PPCs and ACs. And it looks like PGI is trying some what to fix this. But the problem is they are doing it in the wrong way. For example one symptom of this was that many teams were using Victors and Highlanders. So intead of fixing the core of the problem nurfed Victors and Highlanders and jump jets for assaults. While the real proglem is pin point accuracy at range and that close in brawlers are not effective enough.
Now what it looks like is happening is PGI is basing their balancing on the feed back from the NGNG and the more organized teams that have direct communication with those running PGI. The problem with this is the top 1% of players have a very very narrow view of the game. And they tend to fail to see how the changes they suggest effect the other 99% of the players.
For example in the latest podcast from NGNG they are suggesting more nerfs of jump jets with heat etc but they are symptom of the problem instead of the real problem. Now if you nerfed them enough it might at some point reduce jump jets in the most competitive 12 mans. But it would have a drastic effect on the other 99% of the games where it was not a problem to begin with.
An example of this is the nerfing of Victors and Highlanders. This nurfing hurt the brawling of these two mechs something that needs boosting not nerfing.
So what are some reasonable things they can do to boost brawling while breaking the jump sniping meta. Some things what will have a balanced effect on the 99% and the 1%.
1. Make it where convergence of weapons is througn off while you jump sniping. How it could work is like this. As you are going up the convergence of weopons spread out. Then as you let off the jump jets it slowly starts to get closer but does not get to 100% until you are back on the ground. So on the way up damage would be spread all over the mech. But even on the way down damage would be scattered over more than one area.
This convergence effect while jumping should also be based on range. The effect should be more pronounced at 500m than 50m.
The effect of spreading damage while jumping and making it more pronounced the longer the range would do two things. First it would greatly cut down the effectiveness of jump sniping. Secondly it would encourage jumping mechs to get closer for better convergence.
2. Fix and do not nerf SRMs when they fix hit detection. On another NGNG post cast some one from PGI said they had a fix for SRMs that made them register about 90% of the time I believe. But went on to say they might need nerfed because of splat cats. The problem with this logic is splat cats were only ever kinda a problem when SRMs were very badly broken with huge amounts of damage. With the spread they have now and 2 points of damage splat cats would not break the game.
The effect of SRMs when working like they are supposed to as a very powerful but very limit range weopon is to encourage people to get in closer to fight.
So what game play I am looking for is where snipers have a chance to do well but they have to be very carefull about letting brawlers get in closer. And who wins that battle depends on 90% on the skill of the teams/pilots not on the bad balancing of the two by PGI.
By the way the reason I only suggest two changes is because I do not think the balancing will need anything more drastic taking away convergence completly.
Weapon spread was included in the first JJ neft patch when they added in screen shake. It just doesn't impact ANYTHING if you use the "lock arms to torso" toggle. The meta-jumpers all do that and/or fire once their JJs stop burning.
SRMs are going to get fixed and then will be judged on whether they're OP or not.
That's a little optimistic. Plus, if the target isn't on a perpendicular course, that number shrinks even more -- 45 degrees, 1.2 meters. Thirty points of damage, great range, pinpoint as pure gravy.
Which raises the question: why does the target have to diligently run for his life all the time? And the answer is because, as you note, front-loaded damage, especially pinpoint, is dominant at any range.
I can't hold that against you, but it's the single most controversial, unintended mechanic that (as noted above) departs from expectations of playing live-action BattleTech.
I wouldn't say running for your life but if you leave cover to change positions you should be moving.... but I will concede your point that most of the time folks aren't moving to spread the damage like that. The trick is twist or move to hide the last part of your body that was hit so you can take the next hit somewhere else. Has the same effect of CoF in that you force the enemy to not hit where he wants to, but instead of just ignoring your enemies aim skills And automatically giving you the benefits of CoF, it forces you to respond with some defensive skills of your own.. is that a terrible thing? I don't think so. I also don't understand why it isn't expected that guns in the 31st century shoot where they are pointed. I think the controversy comes from people getting upset that they get killed or cripple quickly when they put themselves in bad situations. I don't want this game to turn into a point in their general direction and pray that shots hit. Like someone said before this isn't spray and pray CS.
LocationPacifica Training School, waiting for BakPhar shares to rise
Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:02 AM
Gas Guzzler, on 12 May 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:
I think the controversy comes from people getting upset that they get killed or cripple quickly when they put themselves in bad situations.
I think it's more that people are disappointed to see a variety of 'Mechs switched around to carry the same loadout, and the "blow by blow" style of the franchise absent. As I posted earlier, once you get past 20 points per volley on anything but a short-range weapon, you get a "no-scope"-y kind of feel.
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I don't want this game to turn into a point in their general direction and pray that shots hit. Like someone said before this isn't spray and pray CS.
I agree, complete randomization wouldn't be fun. Reduced accuracy while jumping (reticle shake) is just a rule intended to discourage that particular style of play, and I'd be surprised to see it anywhere else. With delays, of course, shots go where they're supposed to; just not all at once.
This forum is full of folks who complain about stuff because they can't shoot.
And some who seem to be playing in a steering wheel under-hive where pop-tarts are easily defeated.
xLAVAx, on 12 May 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:
Really good competitive teams do not "blob up and pop tart."
Really good teams find their enemy quickly, aggressively maneuver to contact and then push into them and take them apart.
That is why direct fire, high dps weapons are preferred. That is why JJs are preferred. http://mrbcleague.co...vid=396&sid=437
Game over in 4 minutes on Tourmaline between the top 2 teams in MRBC EU League.
Your linked video is 4 HGN 733 2 VTR-DS and 4 CTF 3D. Insert <not sure if serious> gif. I'm also not sure why you bother bringing up the "blob up" other than as a red herring.
I'll tell you what does--try playing Team Fortress 2 as a Soldier or Demoman and scoring consistent, repeatable airshots with your rocket launcher or grendade launcher (not pipebombs) and the following those shots up with not one, but at least two follow-up airshots, killing them before they land.
Do this over and over. And over. Until you don't miss.
THAT is hard.
I have competed at the top levels in TF 2 and won Platinum-level leagues. As a Soldier, it is your responsibility to be able to do this. This means you must airshot from not just some angles, but from ALL angles and all situations. You have to even be able to knock people into the air and then take them down. You have to be able to shoot them out of the air when they are moving towards and away.
The skill required to do this consistently is extremely challenging to master. Far, far harder than anything MWO has ever presented. We're not talking a week or two of practice here--we are talking months or years of dedication with constant refresher practicing all the time to stay on top of it. And then, when you face someone else who can do the same thing... you have to raise it to an even HIGHER level.
MWO is light on skill when it comes to marksmanship. This game is easy mode.
3rdworld is right--if played properly, meta snipers have no weakness other than the matchmaker. If spread correctly, a four man of meta snipers will decimate a four man of brawlers every single time.
That isn't balance, that is an imbalance. Even if the four man of brawlers gets in close, they are still dead because three, if not four of them can still pinpoint damage and take them down. The brawlers don't have a chance.
That is the definition of an imbalance.
Don't really know or care about TF 2, but I'm sure you don't have to pay attention to what components you are hitting either because there aren't individual components, just damage. Good for you for mastering such a hard game. Are rocket launcher airshots considered the best tactic in that game? If there is a "best" or "preferred" tactic then that right there matches your definition of an imbalance. Perfect balance would mean no tactic is inherently better then another, but certain tactics are better in certain situations. Since you can master such a hard game, then you should be a straight up pro at this game right? I mean, that is what it sounds like since it doesn't take much skill.
I'm not trying to be contemptible, but come on. You are implying this game is easy to master. You should be able to repeatedly hit a Mech at 700 m going 70-80 kph on the same component while jump sniping leaving yourself exposed only as long as you need to over and over again. Does that sound easy? Coupled with paying attention to enemy team movements and friendly team movements making sure you don't get overrun. Marksmanship is one part of this game, but even the best marksman in the world cannot stand there waiting for poptarts to pop up over their cover to take a shot at them. That is just a bad idea.
And I don't buy that a lance of equally skilled brawlers would be rolled every time by a lance of poptarts in a brawling situation, and frankly that point is impossible for you to prove.
Since you can master such a hard game, then you should be a straight up pro at this game right? I mean, that is what it sounds like since it doesn't take much skill.
I guess we've never met before. Hi, I'm Mister Blastman, nice to meet you. :-|
Does this look like nubbery?
Look, I'm not going to toot my own horn or talk myself up. That's not my style. Take me for what you will. Ask around. Talk to people. You'll learn more about me that way.
My point of posting in this thread isn't to whine/cry/complain, it is instead to be constructive as a point of view from someone who has mastered this game. It doesn't take a lot to do so, either, if you're smart about it.
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And I don't buy that a lance of equally skilled brawlers would be rolled every time by a lance of poptarts in a brawling situation, and frankly that point is impossible for you to prove.
No, it is not. Since we have private matches now we can do it all night long! Name your time/place and I'll go grab some pro snipers and we'll have some fun. I'm available evenings at 9 PM EDT - 2 AM EDT.
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Good for you for mastering such a hard game. Are rocket launcher airshots considered the best tactic in that game? If there is a "best" or "preferred" tactic then that right there matches your definition of an imbalance.
No, they are not. They are considered a "tool" in your toolbox--of MANY tools that you need to be proficient at to master the game. They are by no means an end all, overpowered technique. They are required to be good at along with countless other items to play at the top level. They just so happen to be one of the absolute hardest things to master in any game.
Team Fortress 2 has way better balance than this game can ever pretend to have right now.
Aggressive balancing? This game has never seen aggressive balancing compared with what Valve did with Team Fortress 2. This game is a shadow in a corner wanting to be competitive but can't since it lacks competitive level balance.
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Marksmanship is one part of this game, but even the best marksman in the world cannot stand there waiting for poptarts to pop up over their cover to take a shot at them. That is just a bad idea.
Look, I was quoting yourself. It isn't? You sure made it sound like it was incredibly hard to master.
No, you don't stand there waiting for poptarts unless you are a terribad rocking in a corner mumbling to yourself.
This game is not even close to balanced. I see convoluted things being done and understand the intentions behind them but they all have consistently failed to address the real issues.
I'll tell you what does--try playing Team Fortress 2 as a Soldier or Demoman and scoring consistent, repeatable airshots with your rocket launcher or grendade launcher (not pipebombs) and the following those shots up with not one, but at least two follow-up airshots, killing them before they land.
Do this over and over. And over. Until you don't miss.
THAT is hard.
I have competed at the top levels in TF 2 and won Platinum-level leagues. As a Soldier, it is your responsibility to be able to do this. This means you must airshot from not just some angles, but from ALL angles and all situations. You have to even be able to knock people into the air and then take them down. You have to be able to shoot them out of the air when they are moving towards and away.
The skill required to do this consistently is extremely challenging to master. Far, far harder than anything MWO has ever presented. We're not talking a week or two of practice here--we are talking months or years of dedication with constant refresher practicing all the time to stay on top of it. And then, when you face someone else who can do the same thing... you have to raise it to an even HIGHER level.
MWO is light on skill when it comes to marksmanship. This game is easy mode.
3rdworld is right--if played properly, meta snipers have no weakness other than the matchmaker. If spread correctly, a four man of meta snipers will decimate a four man of brawlers every single time.
That isn't balance, that is an imbalance. Even if the four man of brawlers gets in close, they are still dead because three, if not four of them can still pinpoint damage and take them down. The brawlers don't have a chance.
That is the definition of an imbalance.
It's a first for me here..... I agree with Mister Blastman.....
Only exception being head shots can be much more difficult in this game than other FPS games, and i praise anyone who head shots me for their skill or luck whatever it may be.
That is all.
Edited by Mark Brandhauber, 12 May 2014 - 09:10 AM.
Poptarting doesn't take any real skill vs. anything else in the game. Anyone can equip JJs and weapons only to run around popping up and down like a praerie dog armed to the teeth. What takes skill is actually hitting the same spot nearly every time regardless of the chassis that you're fighting. That is what seperates the haves and have nots and there are a massive ton of wannabes that run around trying to do it. The sad part is that even the horrible poptarters can, if properly done so within the subject of a lance on teamspeak, roll people. Communication and linking firing is powerful enough to lay waste to lots of people. But, that same coordination with much better marksman is a scary thing.
The best way to nerf poptarting is to disable the ability to fire weapons while jumping.
Kutfroat, on 12 May 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:
would be so easy: disable all weapons while using jumpjets. fixed.
in this way they would serve the purpose they are intended for, getting onto higher ground. and maybe to take a look over a hill/ridge to spot enemies.
And that kills jump-brawlers. So I'm giving that suggestion a big fat NO!
??? Not yet - i have problems to even climb those walls at canyon, not to mention when you have the problem to get stacked.... you need a lot of jj fuel to get your mech free....
Currently I'm not convinced that the JumpJets are worth for anything else but pop tarting. (difference between me an them - I'm poptarting below 270m )
Just because you are totally incapable of using JJs to maneuver effectively does not mean no one else can. Step up your game and stop crying for nerfs in the forums.
2
DaZur, on 12 May 2014 - 03:46 AM, said:
