162 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

There is no reason to do that

Of course there is. It stops poptarting completely.

The other option would be to make the reticle shake the entire time youre in the air, and not just when youre using jumpjets. That way you cant fire accurately while falling.

[Tombstoner]

When ever i consider game balance i am reminded of PGI's statement at i am not part of the target audience. Thus if you dont like what PGI has done, welcome to the island....

[Mister Blastman]

The island is a scary place...



Sometimes, though, I feel we ought to go full-bore Long John Silver...



Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 12 May 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

I guess we've never met before. Hi, I'm Mister Blastman, nice to meet you. :-|

Does this look like nubbery?



Look, I'm not going to toot my own horn or talk myself up. That's not my style. Take me for what you will. Ask around. Talk to people. You'll learn more about me that way.

My point of posting in this thread isn't to whine/cry/complain, it is instead to be constructive as a point of view from someone who has mastered this game. It doesn't take a lot to do so, either, if you're smart about it.



No, it is not. Since we have private matches now we can do it all night long! Name your time/place and I'll go grab some pro snipers and we'll have some fun. I'm available evenings at 9 PM EDT - 2 AM EDT.



No, they are not. They are considered a "tool" in your toolbox--of MANY tools that you need to be proficient at to master the game. They are by no means an end all, overpowered technique. They are required to be good at along with countless other items to play at the top level. They just so happen to be one of the absolute hardest things to master in any game.

Team Fortress 2 has way better balance than this game can ever pretend to have right now.

Aggressive balancing? This game has never seen aggressive balancing compared with what Valve did with Team Fortress 2. This game is a shadow in a corner wanting to be competitive but can't since it lacks competitive level balance.



Look, I was quoting yourself. It isn't? You sure made it sound like it was incredibly hard to master.

No, you don't stand there waiting for poptarts unless you are a terribad rocking in a corner mumbling to yourself.


This game is not even close to balanced. I see convoluted things being done and understand the intentions behind them but they all have consistently failed to address the real issues.

Man that looked like fun! I have had games like that as well (and better) but I still don't see myself connecting every shot I make with PPCs at moving targets at range.

But anyway no that does not look like nubbery, and I did not mean to imply that I thought you suck. My apologies.

A private match couldn't decide that for certain because:

A ) I'm probably not as good/experienced as you

B ) I don't have anyone with equal skill to me/you that would be game for this. I'm exclusively a pugger and not part of a unit

TF 2 mechanics: Okay fair enough, like I said never played team fortress 2

I don't understand the last bit about quoting myself about markmanship being hard to master? I was saying repeatedly striking a component on a fresh mech at distance is not easy to master with any weapon and takes practice. Then what I was trying to say was, people sit and wait for poptarts to pop up to take their shots, and of course can't do anything because you are at a HUGE disadvantage in that situation, and then those people proceed to get all bent out of shape over how OP poptarting is instead of trying to come up with a different strategy for dealing with them. I've seen high ELO poptart premades get decimated by massed LRMs and NARC and other non-poptarts, so other strategies do exist.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 12 May 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[Rampancy]

For whatever it's worth, I find 2xgaussjaegers/phracts way more frustrating to play against than meta-tarts. Not a damn thing you can do against them in a slow mech but hope that they miss.

[Itsalrightwithme]

Instead of nerfing JJs we can instead ask PGI to reduce terrain restriction. That will make all non-JJ mechs more viable, make the game much more interesting, and as a bonus you get to rush those poptarters AND LRM boats. Imagine.

[Karl Streiger]

delicious Mystere. I really should add smiley's next time mocking people that want to remove shoting midair.

ok after some seconds remove the ability to shot ACs Gauss and PPC cause of recoil keep missiles and laser.

poptarting is a diagnosis not the disease

[Mister Blastman]

Gas Guzzler, on 12 May 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

I don't understand the last bit about quoting myself about markmanship being hard to master? I was saying repeatedly striking a component on a fresh mech at distance is not easy to master with any weapon and takes practice. Then what I was trying to say was, people sit and wait for poptarts to pop up to take their shots, and of course can't do anything because you are at a HUGE disadvantage in that situation, and then those people proceed to get all bent out of shape over how OP poptarting is instead of trying to come up with a different strategy for dealing with them. I've seen high ELO poptart premades get decimated by massed LRMs and NARC and other non-poptarts, so other strategies do exist.

Aff. I have gone so far as to write a mathematical proof on this. As anyone in my Clan. It was a loooooong email.

If you have brawling/non-meta weapons, you can in no way ever expect to win against a meta-sniper squad by remaining complacent, hiding behind cover and waiting for them to come to you.

You will die. Every single time.

Your only way to counter them is to force a brawl--and pray. The brawlers have to be built properly for this to work and right now, that means they don't use SRMs at all. SRMs are a waste of tonnage versus autocannon anything. Even lasers are bad at brawling due to hit detection issues (except the legendary Wubshee but that's 95 tons dedicated to a single purpose).

I don't think it should be this hard, though. I think the close range weapons should be significantly buffed without directly nerfing the long-range sniper weapons... yet. In fact, I'd buff all the close range stuff to an extreme at first to see how it plays out, then trim them back as needed. Oh, and those changes would include completely removing HSR for SRMs and re-implementing splash damage for non-seeking SRMs, only (and damage back to 2.5).

Because, like we've all seen 'round here before, PGI isn't going to do anything about convergence or fix the broken heat system.

Itsalrightwithme, on 12 May 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

Instead of nerfing JJs we can instead ask PGI to reduce terrain restriction. That will make all non-JJ mechs more viable, make the game much more interesting, and as a bonus you get to rush those poptarters AND LRM boats. Imagine.

This would be a huge step in the right direction.

[Alexandrix]

xLAVAx, on 12 May 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

Really good competitive teams do not "blob up and pop tart."

Really good teams find their enemy quickly, aggressively maneuver to contact and then push into them and take them apart.

That is why direct fire, high dps weapons are preferred. That is why JJs are preferred.

http://mrbcleague.co...vid=396&sid=437

Game over in 4 minutes on Tourmaline between the top 2 teams in MRBC EU League.

Nearly every mech in that match was your standard PPC/AC poptart.If that doesn't scream that there's a problem,i don't know what would.I honestly don't know how it could be made any more clear.All you have to do to find the imbalances and/or exploits in a game is look at the top players in a community.They are the ones that will find the most broken things and beat them to death in order to win.Case in point.

Edited by Alexandrix, 12 May 2014 - 10:22 AM.

[Haji1096]

If you nerf jump sniping completely, you'll just see more jagers, stalkers. Anything with high mounted weapons that can hill hump.
Then people will complain about that. PGI hasn't built a game where there are multiple choices at the top of the metagame. Heat efficient, 500-800 meter range, pinpoint builds are the most efficient for taking out enemy mechs quickly with minimum risk.

PGI could do other things, like have maps or game modes where you snipers are at a disadvantage but the root cause is instant convergence, which currently will not be changed. http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=2780

[Mystere]

Karl Streiger, on 12 May 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

delicious Mystere. I really should add smiley's next time mocking people that want to remove shoting midair.

Yes, you really should.

And you have no idea just how delicious I am.

[Mystere]

Giving us smoke modules that last for at least 30 seconds, and not limited to only 1, should help considerably.

[Rebas Kradd]

Nobody in this entire thread has heard of LRMs, it seems.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 12 May 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

Aff. I have gone so far as to write a mathematical proof on this. As anyone in my Clan. It was a loooooong email.

If you have brawling/non-meta weapons, you can in no way ever expect to win against a meta-sniper squad by remaining complacent, hiding behind cover and waiting for them to come to you.

You will die. Every single time.

Your only way to counter them is to force a brawl--and pray. The brawlers have to be built properly for this to work and right now, that means they don't use SRMs at all. SRMs are a waste of tonnage versus autocannon anything. Even lasers are bad at brawling due to hit detection issues (except the legendary Wubshee but that's 95 tons dedicated to a single purpose).

I don't think it should be this hard, though. I think the close range weapons should be significantly buffed without directly nerfing the long-range sniper weapons... yet. In fact, I'd buff all the close range stuff to an extreme at first to see how it plays out, then trim them back as needed. Oh, and those changes would include completely removing HSR for SRMs and re-implementing splash damage for non-seeking SRMs, only (and damage back to 2.5).

Because, like we've all seen 'round here before, PGI isn't going to do anything about convergence or fix the broken heat system.



This would be a huge step in the right direction.

Yeah, I'm all for buffing those closer range weapons. I just don't like splash damage PPCs or CoF.

Anyway, after watching that video, I hope we meet in battle.

[Gas Guzzler]

Rebas Kradd, on 12 May 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

Nobody in this entire thread has heard of LRMs, it seems.

I have!!

Gas Guzzler, on 12 May 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

Then what I was trying to say was, people sit and wait for poptarts to pop up to take their shots, and of course can't do anything because you are at a HUGE disadvantage in that situation, and then those people proceed to get all bent out of shape over how OP poptarting is instead of trying to come up with a different strategy for dealing with them. I've seen high ELO poptart premades get decimated by massed LRMs and NARC and other non-poptarts, so other strategies do exist.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 12 May 2014 - 10:38 AM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I suppose one way you could curb the effectiveness of poptarts is by introducing screen shake to the entire duration of a jump. Then giving the upcoming targeting computer the ability to negate this screen shake. We would also have to bend the timeline rules because IS does not get TCs for a while longer.

Most current poptarts would have to come up with an extra 6 tons and crit spaces. Because of this easing back some of the nerfs to the ac10, ac20, and gauss may need to be considered. Giving the TC something useful to do is a bonus.

Of course that may just completely destroy poptarts which is something I don't want to happen. I would rather see a team of brawlers supported by poptarts and/or lrm boats. Just throwing out some ideas.

[Trauglodyte]

Adding heat to JJs during use is a good idea. In TT, you earned a minimum of 3 heat and 1 additional point of heat for each JJ beyond 2 (I think it was 2). In MWO, you build up 3 points of heat on use and nothing else no matter how long you burn them. Now, as someone said, adding a little bit of heat won't make a huge difference. BUT, if we can ever add in some heat based penalties to this game to impact convergence (ie, force your convergence point back thus increasing weapon spread), then that will go a long way to making heat a more dangerous thing and, thereby, reduce the overall power of the poptarter. It won't be that big of an impact but if you're aiming for a side torso and end up hitting with only 50% of your damage because you were that hot OR you decide to fire only your ACs, that alone is slowing the inbound damage which is very good for the game.

Also, brawling weapons need some major help. First off, TAG and NARC need to do something for SRMs. It could be tighter spread at the bare minimum or ghetto tracking at the extreme. But, the gear is there and it needs to mean something for all weapons. But, SOMETHING needs to be done because a Sniper build has got to be at a major disadvantage when you're fighting beyond their "butter zone". If I'm running something with a 270m extreme range, I'd damn well better be doing more damage than you when you can reach out and hammer me at 1800m. I understand PGI's fear, though. Again, when you have extremely small maps, having an OP brawling setup that doesn't weight a lot is rather problematic.

[Rebas Kradd]

I don't like the heat solution. The whole point of poptarting is that you don't have to expose yourself, meaning that the cover you're using makes any extra heat penalties meaningless.

[Trauglodyte]

Rebas Kradd, on 12 May 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

I don't like the heat solution. The whole point of poptarting is that you don't have to expose yourself, meaning that the cover you're using makes any extra heat penalties meaningless.

When you look at it from the smallest angle, it doesn't make a lot of sense. But, that heat adds up over time which means that it will eventually limit what a poptarter can do. IF, and that is a big "if", we ever see heat based penalties added, that increased heat load will have a big impact. Then again, I'm a pessimistic optomist so I'm holding out hope but doubting I'll ever see it.

[Mister Blastman]

Removing ghost heat on lasers, SRMs and the AC20 would also be a great start. I hesitate to say PPCs due to convergence issues. But the rest--it needs to go.

2x Large Lasers is a joke. You have to stay exposed TWICE as long to fire four and they don't couple well with autocannons at all, unlike PPCs.

If we had no ghost heat on lasers, we'd at least have more variety in the game--and that's a good thing!

(plus reduction of heat by 1 pt for mediums and pulses)