238 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 May 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

x2 XP on first win of the day on x2XP Weekened, plus Premium Time makes for such a pretty end of match screen.

It does.

Then again, I see 5 people under double digits in damage, of which 4 of them doing single digits, and of which 3 did squat.

Seal clubbing occurred... too bad at higher Elo levels, those seals bring a nailbat in retaliation.

[wanderer]

WarZ, on 12 May 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

You cannot say there is skill in LRM's. It's simply awareness. Just firing them when you have good opportunity shots. Not firing them into cover, not firing them at a barely spotted fast moving target. No skill, just awareness.

If you think this, you really should play when someone's actually trying to kill you vs. being utterly left alone for the entire game. Or when your team can't hold a lock because everyone's ridgehumping/sniping from cover/etc, as you noted.

Getting viable firepower out of your launchers when your team isn't engaging/decides to engage on lousy ground is an exercise, trust me. Case in point, I was on a fight in Tourmaline. The enemy had triple the tubes and was busily keeping everyone's heads down while a hero Raven spotted.

Lil' ol LRM Jager-A me had to go hunt down and kill the thing while dodging the three guys bombarding me with missiles AND keeping the Raven zipping along in sight, herd it into LOS of my team and finally kill the thing just in time for the rest of their brawlers to charge out and kill ME. Of course, that put them into LOS of my team as well...and we won it 12-10 in the end because apparently, I'd managed to get their LRM boats to expend so much ammo trying to kill me that they sputtered out after a few more salvos.

You're artillery. Sometimes your team gives you easymode. Sometimes they don't, and that's where the skill comes in- or you go from support to albatross around your team's neck if you can't put effective fire downrange.

Quote

Doing well with them is more a matter of the team you are on. If you are on a team that will engage, then you are golden and can fire madly as there will be lots of targets sighted. You get on a weak team that falls back or breaks engagement too quickly and you dont get much. Of course that being said if you are on a team that engages, LRM's are insanely powerful atm.

Only if your team is good to begin with- and then you're speeding the snowball up. An LRM boat is often only capable of being as aggressive as it's team is, since of all the weapon choices, it's the most vulnerable to close assault and demands point defense from the team lest it be easily killed. Overaggressive LRM boats get into shootouts with direct-fire platforms and drop in short order because they can't trade evenly in the "who cores who" department with the guy mounting anything else but LRMs. And yes, awareness is a skill too- an LRM user has to keep 360 degrees of the battlefield in mind, high and low, lines of fire that aren't merely straight lines but often ballistic curves that lasers or AC's will hit a target but LRMs will end up blasting an overhanging bit of terrain and chewing dirt. We don't just calculate our own fire lane- we have to keep everyone else's in mind, sort threats and deliver the ordinance on time, on schedule, and on the critical targets first, even when it's a "spook shot" to send some distant target scurrying for cover to get it off your team-mate that will almost certainly whiff.

[Parmeggido]

I feel this applies, and personally, think lrms are fine at the moment.

[Fiona Marshe]

ARMD 4 mans last night. For quite a while we dropped as:
Commando with NARC
Gauss 'Phract or LRM 'Cat
2 Stalker LRM60s

So often we were the only LRMs in the *game*. The problem we had was team-mates not surviving very long or posting very poor damage. We averaged 500+ each and had to keep carrying the team (who were averaging ~130). Many times we had to wipe out the last couple of mechs with medium lasers as the missiles dried up and the enemy charged us.

(Before anyone criticizes, we had to get our own locks most of the time, as the rest of the team died fast in the first couple of minutes for many matches).

[Livewyr]

I'm a bad man..

my ALRM20 has 43,7% accuracy..ALRM15 has 37.7%..

[Tesunie]

WarZ, on 12 May 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

You cannot say there is skill in LRM's. It's simply awareness. Just firing them when you have good opportunity shots. Not firing them into cover, not firing them at a barely spotted fast moving target. No skill, just awareness.

Doing well with them is more a matter of the team you are on. If you are on a team that will engage, then you are golden and can fire madly as there will be lots of targets sighted. You get on a weak team that falls back or breaks engagement too quickly and you dont get much. Of course that being said if you are on a team that engages, LRM's are insanely powerful atm.

Awareness is a skill. LRMs do use skill. They use different skills than other weapons. I have more in depth writings on the skills needed for LRMs, as well as the build planning (for me at least) that goes into an LRM based mech, and other things, in the following links.
LRM Guide: LRMs require skill to properly use
Guide: A balanced concept to mech building
LRMs, Spotting, and you 6/20/13

Some of these links are older forum posts, but I find the information still relevant to the current use of LRMs. Overall, the general concept and skill types to use LRMs are still unchanged, despite the increase to speed. They just are a little more likely to hit now from my experience.

[Tesunie]

Livewyr, on 12 May 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I'm a bad man..

my ALRM20 has 43,7% accuracy..ALRM15 has 37.7%..

About the same as my current accuracy for those systems. Funny thing is, I seem to be more accurate with the non-Artemis LRM launchers, with exception to the ALRM20... I find that... strange...

[WarZ]

wanderer, on 12 May 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

If you think this, you really should play when someone's actually trying to kill you vs. being utterly left alone for the entire game. Or when your team can't hold a lock because everyone's ridgehumping/sniping from cover/etc, as you noted.

Getting viable firepower out of your launchers when your team isn't engaging/decides to engage on lousy ground is an exercise, trust me. Case in point, I was on a fight in Tourmaline. The enemy had triple the tubes and was busily keeping everyone's heads down while a hero Raven spotted.

Lil' ol LRM Jager-A me had to go hunt down and kill the thing while dodging the three guys bombarding me with missiles AND keeping the Raven zipping along in sight, herd it into LOS of my team and finally kill the thing just in time for the rest of their brawlers to charge out and kill ME. Of course, that put them into LOS of my team as well...and we won it 12-10 in the end because apparently, I'd managed to get their LRM boats to expend so much ammo trying to kill me that they sputtered out after a few more salvos.

You're artillery. Sometimes your team gives you easymode. Sometimes they don't, and that's where the skill comes in- or you go from support to albatross around your team's neck if you can't put effective fire downrange.



Only if your team is good to begin with- and then you're speeding the snowball up. An LRM boat is often only capable of being as aggressive as it's team is, since of all the weapon choices, it's the most vulnerable to close assault and demands point defense from the team lest it be easily killed. Overaggressive LRM boats get into shootouts with direct-fire platforms and drop in short order because they can't trade evenly in the "who cores who" department with the guy mounting anything else but LRMs. And yes, awareness is a skill too- an LRM user has to keep 360 degrees of the battlefield in mind, high and low, lines of fire that aren't merely straight lines but often ballistic curves that lasers or AC's will hit a target but LRMs will end up blasting an overhanging bit of terrain and chewing dirt. We don't just calculate our own fire lane- we have to keep everyone else's in mind, sort threats and deliver the ordinance on time, on schedule, and on the critical targets first, even when it's a "spook shot" to send some distant target scurrying for cover to get it off your team-mate that will almost certainly whiff.

In other words you fully agreed with my statements. You just still choose to call awareness "skill".

LRM use as is complained about, is benefitted by awareness, not skill.

Edited by WarZ, 12 May 2014 - 06:39 PM.

[Captain Stiffy]

LRM's would not be anywhere near as big a problem if the ECM mech's actually played the game right. They see ECM as a self missile shield and it's supposed to be for saving your team from LRM's.

[MortVent]

WarZ, on 12 May 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

In other words you fully agreed with my statements. You just still choose to call awareness "skill".

LRM use as is complained about, is benefitted by awareness, not skill.

Situational awareness is a skill. We all have some level of it, and with practice and usage it improves like any other skill.

Same as tactical and strategic awareness

[wanderer]

WarZ, on 12 May 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

In other words you fully agreed with my statements. You just still choose to call awareness "skill".

LRM use as is complained about, is benefitted by awareness, not skill.

http://en.wikipedia....ation_awareness

If you don't consider sharpening your situational awareness a skill, you really need to tell the Air Force about that. They've been training people for a skill that doesn't exist since the Korean War.

Heck, it literally IS a crew skill in World of Tanks.

[MortVent]

While testing setting changes to try and fix my fps issues I recorded this little vid. Compares the damage delivery of a lrm to fld weapons. Nothing fancy, just me shooting the same mech.. on the same map at about the same angle and range.



The lrms do have advanced targeting for tighter groups. But as you can see they still sandblast most of the mech spreading the damage over the mech. So yes LRMs can get a lot of damage, but it's spread over the mechs (even worse with indirect fire btw...)

Each weapon system has tradeoffs. (and if someone wants to do a better one to compare... that works too, I don't feel like spending cbills I'm saving up for modules on lrm20s without artremis for a quick video comparison)

[Androas]

Captain Stiffy, on 12 May 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

LRM's would not be anywhere near as big a problem if the ECM mech's actually played the game right. They see ECM as a self missile shield and it's supposed to be for saving your team from LRM's.

yet it doesnt work allways, you CAN shoot ECM shielded mechs just fine with LRMs, aim for the body, fire away.
I got a few kills that way.

Funny enough there are even people arround who dont know that you can fire LRMs without having a lock, in a recent match my (dead) team mates where suprised, when i fired my LRMs at an ECM protected mech...

Next thing is, you can Fire your Missiles in a High arc, locking the target while the LRMs are mid flight, and still hit your target.

There are lots and lots of ways to use LRMs beside "lock and press button"

Another good use for LRMs is Area denial, simply shower a certain area in LRMs, over and over again.

The thing that makes LRMs powerfull is the "frustration and fear" they bring to their targets.

When i was rather new, nothing got on my nerfes more then a constant "Warning incoming missiles"

Its especially nasty if a 6* LRM 5 Pult is chain firing its launchers at you, its a classical "the bark is worse then the bite"

Your target (if new) will start to get frustrated and make incredible stupid mistakes.

But LRMs are mostly where artilery pieces are in most Games, nice for Area denial and to piss of people and stress them out, so they make mistakes on which your team can capitalize.

But as "OP uber killer weapons" ? They are worthless...

my Stock huggin got more kills with his Machineguns then my Missile boats

[Blood Rose]

Im just wondering, with all the rage against LRM's and Lights how people must rage against my Micro-Missile Boat Locust with 2LRM5 and 2Mlaser, capable of reaching 150.something KPH before speed tweak. The 2 LRM5 can be great psychological weapons and when mounted on such a fast light chassis can be positioned to be really effective at evading hostile lights that are hunting me.

[Iskareot]

Make a boat ... it's a joke. You kinda target things.. kinda look for the red and then kinda launch things. You can stand still or move... You can kinda hang out and do it yeah.

By all means it is not like close combat. Granted if you run into 5 boats on a team you done for. It's nasty

[Rhaythe]

Huh. My LRM15 hit percentage is 36 percent, while my Artemis LRM15 hit percentage is 38 percent. Well. That's wasted c-bills I'll never get back. Ever.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Rhaythe, on 13 May 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

Huh. My LRM15 hit percentage is 36 percent, while my Artemis LRM15 hit percentage is 38 percent. Well. That's wasted c-bills I'll never get back. Ever.

Hit percentages with LRMs is a funky statistic. And Artemis doesn't really mean you'll hit more often. It just means you have a tighter spread.

In the end though, if you fire an LRM10 or LRM 20, and you hit with 40%, that means 4 or 8 missiles. Guess that's scary.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 13 May 2014 - 07:30 AM.

[Ngamok]

Roland, on 11 May 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

It still wouldn't result in a 20% accuracy rate with medium lasers.

They're hitscan. To get a hit with them, it's LITERALLY just point an click, unlike with travel time weapons. You just need to get the reticle on the target and click. You may not get much damage unless you can track, but you'll at least score a hit with them.

The only thing I can think of to result in such a low accuracy rate is firing them from beyond max range... like, all the time.

Honestly, if the reticle isn't on the target, you shouldn't fire your medium lasers. They don't require leading. That's why such a low accuracy rate is so weird.

I used to do a laser light show on maps like Alpine. I know my lasers won't hit at 1500m+ but I can point them out. Also, in the past before turrets, if I am capping, I just fire the lasers at the oil rig for fun. Gave me something to do for standing in a box.

[Tesunie]

Androas, on 13 May 2014 - 12:20 AM, said:

Next thing is, you can Fire your Missiles in a High arc, locking the target while the LRMs are mid flight, and still hit your target.

I too will and have blind fired LRMs into stationary ECM targets. Then I watch them act all surprised and start to move...

However, the quoted section is no longer possible, unless those LRMs had a lock on the target you are locking at the time of their shooting. Once fired, LRMs will only seek the original target that they where locked on. If you change mech locks on the LRMs in mid flight, they will lose tracking and not track the new lock. If you launch LRMs without a lock, and then gain a lock while they are in mid flight, they will not track your new lock, and instead will continue on their blind fired "target".

Old LRMs use to be able to change locks in mid flight, or gain locks in mid flight. That was changed some time ago...

Edited by Tesunie, 13 May 2014 - 07:53 AM.