238 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

LRMs aren't exactly easy mode, but they aren't OP either.

I've been running Kintaro-18 LRM boat and while I've been most successful at it (since, there's sadly NOTHING of worth to make out of the KTO-18), it's a pain in the arse (not that it's a Kintaro, but it's a terrible chassis for Lurmin' vs the Griffin).

UAV deployments (spotting) vs ECM (anti-spotting) dictate a lot of the effectiveness of LRMs and while the underhive doesn't seem to carry AMS or avoid LRMs properly, it doesn't mean it is suddenly easy. Shooting fish in a barrel is easy unless you are the one-eyed man leading the blind.

I hate running LRMs for that reason and that alone. Even then on the good games, it's sad that a fair number are inept at getting cover and while it doesn't help that I'm not great at getting position as an LRM boat (I need a lot more practice), but terrain is sooooo much your enemy at various points.

So... if you think LRMs are easy mode... wait until reach the Elo level where locks are an order of magnitude harder to come by.

[TimePeriod]

Deathlike, on 11 May 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

So... if you think LRMs are easy mode... wait until reach the Elo level where locks are an order of magnitude harder to come by.

YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.

Seriously, if you are in a high elo its 95% sure you are not using LRMs.

[MortVent]

TimePeriod, on 11 May 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

LRM spamming is easy, regardless how it is done.

Too bad the general masses in PUGS have the tactical sense of a monkey with a hand-grenade.

Spamming is easy

Effective use of the weapon system without the spamming is hard

[Foxfire]

Aeten, on 11 May 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

In case you don't understand what I'm saying: I don't think LRMS are easy mode because of any kills they get or OPness. They are easy mode because all you do is sit there and click without any sort of thinking or aiming.

They are also very susceptible to shoddy targeting, ECM nullifying targeting ability, uselessness in any area with odd terrain geometry(cannot count how many times I thought I did good in Tournamaline with LRM's only to come out with ~150 damage because most of my shots smacked unseen terrain that I couldn't see).. They are not hard to use.. but then again, neither are AC's, PPC's, SRM's, and Streaks.. the only thing that could really be considered 'hard' to use are gauss rifles and that has more to do with the funky mechanics added to them.

[Deathlike]

TimePeriod, on 11 May 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

Seriously, if you are in a high elo its 95% sure you are not using LRMs.

My personal preference is to ALMOST NEVER USE LRMS. It's not a desire to want to use them, but rather influenced by experience through design.

LRMs are not heavily used in upper Elo tiers, but you're mistaking that it isn't even a factor. Besides, I KNOW more often than not you don't see it in upper Elo, but people will still run it "for fun" or a "change of pace".

[TimePeriod]

MortVent, on 11 May 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

Spamming is easy

Effective use of the weapon system without the spamming is hard

*assumes serious mode*

Step 1: Wait till any target is within 1km range. Preferably 4-500m.
Step 2: If nothing is within range, stick with the group.
Step 3: Fire (everything) on everything which is equal to a medium or larger. Forget lights.
Step 4: Once heat starts to set in, chainfire until cooled down. Resume Volly-fire.
Step 5: See step 2.

How can it be hard?

[Kyynele]

Aeten, on 11 May 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

In case you don't understand what I'm saying: I don't think LRMS are easy mode because of any kills they get or OPness. They are easy mode because all you do is sit there and click without any sort of thinking or aiming.

Yes, they do allow bad players to play really badly and still feel like they got something done. They can be true easy mode if your team does all the work for you. As long as the opposing team doesn't have mass ECM, or stay in cover. Or have AMS. Or have lights, or (jump)snipers that can aim. You'll get acquainted with those in time.

[Foxfire]

TimePeriod, on 11 May 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

*assumes serious mode*

Step 1: Wait till any target is within 1km range. Preferably 4-500m.
Step 2: If nothing is within range, stick with the group.
Step 3: Fire (everything) on everything which is equal to a medium or larger. Forget lights.
Step 4: Once heat starts to set in, chainfire until cooled down. Resume Volly-fire.
Step 5: See step 2.

How can it be hard?

It's called awareness. If you do what you do, without paying attention, then you can easily spend an entire match firing 80-90% of your shots into the side of a building or at someone who is within a tunnel, under a platform, or a Bridge.

[TimePeriod]

Foxfire, on 11 May 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

It's called awareness. If you do what you do, without paying attention, then you can easily spend an entire match firing 80-90% of your shots into the side of a building or at someone who is within a tunnel, under a platform, or a Bridge.

That's taking it too far. Pardon me but nobody is that stupid and quite frankly I wouldn't blame people for hating a bit on you for assuming as such.

[MortVent]

Foxfire, on 11 May 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

It's called awareness. If you do what you do, without paying attention, then you can easily spend an entire match firing 80-90% of your shots into the side of a building or at someone who is within a tunnel, under a platform, or a Bridge.

Indeed, seen it happen a lot on several maps (cities, straight, hpg, tormaline, mordor)

TimePeriod, on 11 May 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

That's taking it too far. Pardon me but nobody is that stupid and quite frankly I wouldn't blame people for hating a bit on you for assuming as such.

If all you do is lock and shoot, then yes you are that foolish. If you don't pay attention to the situation and think beyond ooh squirrel shoot it!

Your list, didn't include anything other than lock and shoot.

Not our fault you left out things to consider... like:
terrain
ecm
stability of the lock
target decay

just for a quick simple list of things to worry about.

[Murasama]

I would like to see lrms get a slight speed nerf making in possible for lights to sometimes avoid them running full speed perpendicular or at an angle of the launcher. The way they are now, Lights scouting out in the open get obliterated by multiple lrm boats.

[TimePeriod]

I didn't realize we were talking about 12vs12 elite high elo groups, I just assumed this was a standard PUG.

-Terrain varies, I can fire around houses/apartment blocks from time to time.
-Ecm is counted by 40.000 CBills x (up to 12)
- Screw stability, by that time you should have missiles in the air as otherwise the target will be in cover before your missiles even get near it.

Its all about getting as many missiles in the air as fast as possible.

[Wolfways]

Murasama, on 11 May 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

I would like to see lrms get a slight speed nerf making in possible for lights to sometimes avoid them running full speed perpendicular or at an angle of the launcher. The way they are now, Lights scouting out in the open get obliterated by multiple lrm boats.

Do you actually read what you're writing? lol
Anyone out in the open gets obliterated by any weapons...like they should.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Aeten, on 11 May 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

Yesterday I got sick of brawling in my HBK-4SP so I figured what the hell - I'll slap some LRM 5s on there in place of the SSRM 2s I'd been using. See if the buff was really that big. Only put 2 tons of ammo on the thing.

Never ever approached the battle - never had reason to fire any of my 4 lasers. Simply stood on a little hill near spawn (this was River City Night) and repeatedly fired my missiles.

The result: ~350 damage; 110k c-bills. For doing nothing. Just sitting there and not ever even being shot at. I could have taught my cat how to do this.

The worst part is that my full brawling fit on this mech; 2 LPL, 2 ML, 2 SRM 6 typically does not do this well. I usually do less damage and get less c-bills. Looks like I found my new c-bill farmer. I can't even imagine how much damage you would do with a dedicated LRM boat. Probably break 1000 easily. I mean 2 LRM 5 is not even an LRM fit. It's an afterthought; and yet it rewards 350 damage with no risk to the mech pilot...

For one, with 2 tons of ammo for your 5s you're looking at 120*1.1*2=264 maximum potential damage from your LRMs. Since you are certainly not getting every single missile to impact a real target (AMS, spread, and intervening terrain will inevitably eliminate some, unless your targets were utter fools who just stood in the open without moving and without AMS), much of your damage must have been from lasers. Assuming you simply did a straight swap SRMs for LRMs, you're doing more damage with your lasers than you might think (maybe more than you were with your missiles). I'd suggest that the fact that you were hanging back and plinking instead of brawling and getting killed early meant that you wound up doing more damage over time than you would have in a burst by going over-aggressive brawler.

That said, your brawler setup is not good. Those LPLs will make you way too hot for the rest of your firepower (you could make them and the SRMs work, or the LPLs and the MLs, but not all three sets of weapons), and probably require a significant engine sacrifice as well (either too slow to be effective, or using an XL which eliminates most of your survivability).

The traditional 5 ML 2 SRM6 4SP is still the strongest brawler build. You can run it with a STD engine that's big enough to get you some real speed, and though it's still a little hot in a sustained fight it's far more managable than running the much heavier LPLs would be. Plus, that fifth ML and the STD engine mean you can zombie a bit if you are careful with twisting and spreading damage, leaving you a threat even late-game.

As for your conclusions about LRMs, they're in a very healthy place right now. They're friendlier to use than they were, while still relatively easy to mitigate if you are careful. They've got more effective ways to help them out (the NARC boost especially), and are actually worth taking ot a fight now. They are still very situational, which is exactly how they ought to be. The only "easy mode" for LRMs is when you opposition lets you have your way with them, and most any direct fire option is superior even in that situation (LRMs mostly have a use because they fill missile hardpoints, which can't fit ACs or PPCs).

[MortVent]

Murasama, on 11 May 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

I would like to see lrms get a slight speed nerf making in possible for lights to sometimes avoid them running full speed perpendicular or at an angle of the launcher. The way they are now, Lights scouting out in the open get obliterated by multiple lrm boats.

As is most lights can spread the damage out... why should they be immune to everything just because they are fast moving lights?

If you get focused fire from multiple mechs you should be toast, as is one mech firing lrms has little chance to damage a light at anything beyond 300m

[Davers]

Too bad missiles didn't have a direct fire mode so I could jumpsnipe with 40-60 damage. Since missiles tend to have speeds higher than bullets we could set their velocity near AC/2s. Then everyone would be happy.

[TimePeriod]

MortVent, on 11 May 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

As is most lights can spread the damage out... why should they be immune to everything just because they are fast moving lights?

If you get focused fire from multiple mechs you should be toast, as is one mech firing lrms has little chance to damage a light at anything beyond 300m

I have managed to cap the legs of an already damanged light at 197 meters (yes, I looked at the range-finder) with a 25 volley.

[MortVent]

TimePeriod, on 11 May 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

I have managed to cap the legs of an already damanged light at 197 meters (yes, I looked at the range-finder) with a 25 volley.

That's point blank range for lrms ;3 Not over 300m where they have time to adjust

[Vermaxx]

You can rebuild that mech with two LRM10s (each shoulder has ten tubes), add a TAG in your head slot, and really fork people.

If you're turbodouche, you install Artemis in that bad boy. You have to go down to a stock engine to make it work, and you need endo, but gd. 500dmg missions for doing nothing.

[TimePeriod]

MortVent, on 11 May 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

That's point blank range for lrms ;3 Not over 300m where they have time to adjust

Tell that to the Firestarter-FS9S when he tried to jump jet around a corner. Missiles are not OP, they are eeeezeeiiee-mode.

And I don't even pilot a dedicated LRM-boat, I use a modified Protector with a 15/10.

Edited by TimePeriod, 11 May 2014 - 10:31 AM.