162 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

Balancing the game away from jump sniping meta.

From watching 12 man matches you can see the way to win consistently is still jump sniping with PPCs and ACs. And it looks like PGI is trying some what to fix this. But the problem is they are doing it in the wrong way. For example one symptom of this was that many teams were using Victors and Highlanders. So intead of fixing the core of the problem nurfed Victors and Highlanders and jump jets for assaults. While the real proglem is pin point accuracy at range and that close in brawlers are not effective enough.

Now what it looks like is happening is PGI is basing their balancing on the feed back from the NGNG and the more organized teams that have direct communication with those running PGI. The problem with this is the top 1% of players have a very very narrow view of the game. And they tend to fail to see how the changes they suggest effect the other 99% of the players.

For example in the latest podcast from NGNG they are suggesting more nerfs of jump jets with heat etc but they are symptom of the problem instead of the real problem. Now if you nerfed them enough it might at some point reduce jump jets in the most competitive 12 mans. But it would have a drastic effect on the other 99% of the games where it was not a problem to begin with.

An example of this is the nerfing of Victors and Highlanders. This nurfing hurt the brawling of these two mechs something that needs boosting not nerfing.

So what are some reasonable things they can do to boost brawling while breaking the jump sniping meta. Some things what will have a balanced effect on the 99% and the 1%.

1. Make it where convergence of weapons is througn off while you jump sniping. How it could work is like this. As you are going up the convergence of weopons spread out. Then as you let off the jump jets it slowly starts to get closer but does not get to 100% until you are back on the ground. So on the way up damage would be spread all over the mech. But even on the way down damage would be scattered over more than one area.

This convergence effect while jumping should also be based on range. The effect should be more pronounced at 500m than 50m.

The effect of spreading damage while jumping and making it more pronounced the longer the range would do two things. First it would greatly cut down the effectiveness of jump sniping. Secondly it would encourage jumping mechs to get closer for better convergence.

2. Fix and do not nerf SRMs when they fix hit detection. On another NGNG post cast some one from PGI said they had a fix for SRMs that made them register about 90% of the time I believe. But went on to say they might need nerfed because of splat cats. The problem with this logic is splat cats were only ever kinda a problem when SRMs were very badly broken with huge amounts of damage. With the spread they have now and 2 points of damage splat cats would not break the game.

The effect of SRMs when working like they are supposed to as a very powerful but very limit range weopon is to encourage people to get in closer to fight.

So what game play I am looking for is where snipers have a chance to do well but they have to be very carefull about letting brawlers get in closer. And who wins that battle depends on 90% on the skill of the teams/pilots not on the bad balancing of the two by PGI.

By the way the reason I only suggest two changes is because I do not think the balancing will need anything more drastic taking away convergence completly.

Edited by Egomane, 11 May 2014 - 12:55 AM.

[Merrick]

those fixes are actually both doable (as they have exsisted in the past so just turn them back on) and logical, sadly it is why your idea is doomed to fail .

[Bishop Steiner]

I'm for this.

But on the Poptart front, I think a simpler thing is to use the already existing mechanic. You have cockpit/reticle shake on the "up-jump" already. The Moment you cut your jets, things snap to perfect stillness again. That ain't how things work.

Extend the cockpit/reticle shake a full 0.5-1.0 seconds after the thrust is cut (exactly how long would need play testing for balance). This makes sense, as sympathetic vibrations take time to dissipate, and it would take a moment for the targeting computer and the mech's weapon servos to reacquire.

This does a few things:
1) Forces one to mount more JJs, to get sufficient height to still fire accurately before dropping back to cover.
2) Forces one to jump higher, so not only is one exposed longer, but more of the mech is exposed, also, to return fire.
3) Will significantly reduce accuracy of "snap-poptarts", which are what is breaking the meta, without removing the tactic as a legitimate option, altogether.

After all, we don't want poptarting completely removed a legit tactic, we want it to be less blatantly the go-to tactic, by increasing the skill threshold slightly, and the upping the risk-to-reward ratio. Add to it the extra heat (which impacts poptarts very little) and possible increase to leg damage based on mech mass, and how much one can feather the landing (since right now, you plop in 1-2 JJs, which boost you high enough to clear cover, cut thrust, shoot, and plop, with little to no leg damage, rinse, wash and repeat), that would, IMO, fix the Poptart issue.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 May 2014 - 02:42 PM.

[Destructicus]

To be honest, yeah
PGI kind of seems confused on how to fix this problem, but at the same time, no matter what they do, people are always going to try to get around it
True, half of it is PGI and their inability to balance anything, the other half are overly competitive players who just need to win no matter how cheap and prefer cheese builds to actual skill and tactics and that good old fashion teamwork exploit you hear about every now and then.
I stay away from cheese builds entirely on the simple basis I don't think they're fun at all.
Maybe I'm the crazy one.

[Bishop Steiner]

Destructicus, on 10 May 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

To be honest, yeah
PGI kind of seems confused on how to fix this problem, but at the same time, no matter what they do, people are always going to try to get around it
True, half of it is PGI and their inability to balance anything, the other half are overly competitive players who just need to win no matter how cheap and prefer cheese builds to actual skill and tactics and that good old fashion teamwork exploit you hear about every now and then.
I stay away from cheese builds entirely on the simple basis I don't think they're fun at all.
Maybe I'm the crazy one.

see proposal above you. Not sure how one would get around it. One could still Poptart, but it takes more time and skill, exposes to more return fire, and possibly even leg damage from landing.

[XX Sulla XX]

Sure Bishop I have no problem with that. I know they are busy coding other things so I am for what they are most realistically going to do.

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After all, we don't want poptarting completely removed a legit tactic, we want it to be less blatantly the go-to tactic,

Agreed

[GreyGriffin]

Sadly, convergence is a dead issue because of magical technology issues.

A LOT of this would be resolved by implementing a cone of fire. The technical hurdles and weird convergence behavior, the massive pinpoint damage of multi ppc barrages, and the ac/ppc synergy would all be wiped away in an instant by just giving weapon points of impact a small but reasonable spread at high-medium to long ranges.

TTK would be increased outside of 500m, making forward momentum through enemy fields of fire a possibility, incentivizing short-ranged engagements and builds through increased accuracy at close range, giving more durability to mobile mediums and "slow" lights, and equalizing the power of weapons loadouts across the board.

[XX Sulla XX]

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True, half of it is PGI and their inability to balance anything, the other half are overly competitive players who just need to win no matter how cheap and prefer cheese builds to actual skill and tactics and that good old fashion teamwork exploit you hear about every now and then.

Yes but you KNOW they are going to do that. That is the way all games work. So you balance around that while also keeping in mind the rest of the players.

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Sadly, convergence is a dead issue because of magical technology issue

But as Bishop said they can also fix it with shake. And that already works.

[Destructicus]

XX Sulla XX, on 10 May 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

Yes but you KNOW they are going to do that. That is the way all games work. So you balance around that while also keeping in mind the rest of the players.

Correct, I'm just stating cheese players are the problem variable
Sad thing there are tons of good ideas on how to address the problem, this thread is proof of that but PGI doesn't listen to player feedback

[Aresye]

Another factor that influences the meta is the bad geometry on maps, their associated hitboxes, and how any mechs without high mounted weapons end up clipping terrain and/or invisible geometry that makes it look like you hit the mech, but didn't.

I've noticed whenever I run a jump sniping build that I'm actually less concerned about trying to stay behind cover, and more concerned about making sure my weapons aren't clipping some hill that happens to be 1cm too high and blocks all my weapons.

Most cover in this game involves peeking around/over corners to shoot, but you have to expose a very large portion of your mech to ensure your weapons won't clip the terrain. More than what should be necessary.

[Karmen Baric]

Was thinking about this myself & dont mind OPs idea re convergence missmatch for jumping, but also saw OP mentioned NGNG podcast which apparently stated more heat coming to Jump Jets and i have to agree with that.

I think it should be that any heavy/assualt who jumps generates roughly 40% heat so if you jump 3 times consequtively you overheat, combine this with wepons shooting and likely 2 jumps and 2ppc shots each time means you hit 100% heat. So pilots have choice of shoot/ jumpjetting to move or both in which case they really heat up. So JJ cant be used to move like jackrabbits but needs thought put in to use it.

Edited by Karmen Baric, 10 May 2014 - 03:00 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Well I think they listen to feedback from NGNG and a few other top teams etc. And I now know what we need. http://www.gamasutra...ve_.php?print=1

I think the heat nerf is comming at it from the wrong direction. Who cares if mechs jump. It is jumping while having perfect long range pin point accuracy that is a problem.

[Merrick]

Karmen Baric, on 10 May 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

Was thinking about this myself and then saw OP post re heat to Jump Jets and i have to agree with this.

I think it should be that any heavy/assualt who jumps generates roughly 40% heat so if you jump 3 times consequtively you overheat, combine this with wepons shooting and likely 2 jumps and 2ppc shots each time means you hit 100% heat. So pilots have choice of shoot/ jumpjetting to move or both in which case they really heat up. So JJ cant be used to move like jackrabbits but needs thought put in to use it.

Careful now, this may cause jump snipers to actually have to behave like real snipers and... y'know move after 1-2 shots since thier position has been compromised... The QQ would be loud and unending

[Bishop Steiner]

Karmen Baric, on 10 May 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

Was thinking about this myself and then saw OP post re heat to Jump Jets and i have to agree with this.

I think it should be that any heavy/assualt who jumps generates roughly 40% heat so if you jump 3 times consequtively you overheat, combine this with wepons shooting and likely 2 jumps and 2ppc shots each time means you hit 100% heat. So pilots have choice of shoot/ jumpjetting to move or both in which case they really heat up. So JJ cant be used to move like jackrabbits but needs thought put in to use it.

Lolz. No.

Heat is a good idea. Heat to that level? Just plain silly, especially with how nerfed the jump mechanic itself is on Assaults now. Especially since you once again punish people who would try to brawl with them even more than Poptarts, who will just slow their DPS, but simply change their overlapping fields of fire and tactics to accomodate.

Much simpler, better ways to address the actual problem which is the point of the OP.

[Name140704]

Pinpoint has been the problem since day 1. They copied everything else from WoT, why not the stupid cone?

[Av4tar]

Remove 3rd person view.

[Destructicus]

Psycho Farmer, on 10 May 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

Pinpoint has been the problem since day 1. They copied everything else from WoT, why not the stupid cone?

God I love this

[Adiuvo]

Pinpoint accuracy is not a problem. Being able to jump and deal 30 damage, say, every 10 seconds or so is not a problem. To do that without spreading damage you need to hope that the opponent is brain dead and doesn't torso twist, and you need to have relatively decent aim. Innate inaccuracy is a frustrating, annoying mechanic that only serves to lower the skill cap of the game. Adding in some kind of splash damage reduces the effectiveness of torso twisting, and harms mechs that have smaller hitboxes to begin with.

I'm not in favor of increasing heat on JJs though it's not a terrible idea. All jump jets (including lights) need the tweaks that the Highlander's JJs had. Namely, massively reduced initial thrust and a better scaling as you equip more JJs. These changes reduced the DPS of a jumpsniper Highlander massively which is the reason you don't see them taken anymore. Do the same thing to the Victor and it will fall out of favor as well, requiring either more tonnage dedicated to JJs, reducing it's heat capacity/engine size or a move to Cataphracts, which are squishy and slow if they're snipers. Class II JJs should probably have their tonnage increased to two as well.

SRMs regging properly would fix a myriad of problems, but they can't be nerfed whatsoever if you're looking to reward gap closing.

[Lightfoot]

You know I never see poptarting in MWO. In MW4 Vengeance League that was all it was, I had to quit that one and find an FFP League, so I know what you mean, but jump-sniping grants no real advantage in MWO if you see it ahead of time and configure for a counter-attack to them. Just hang back, move laterally, let the LRMs chew on them for awhile and they melt. It's only when you rush them head-on to their poptart nest that you get ripped.

You see, when the jump-sniper reaches their jump limit, they hang in your sights for a second. Shoot now. Meanwhile you are moving laterally, right? That makes you harder to hit, not impossible, but you have the edge. Anyway, jump-sniping is a one-dimensional tactic, you just need to counter it.

Edited by Lightfoot, 10 May 2014 - 03:15 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Still lots of jump sniping. http://www.twitch.tv/igp/c/4218843