110 replies to this topic

[NoClass]

This is an FPS with the skin of giant robots duking it out. The weapons need to feel lethal and they need to be FUN to use. Since this is a game. We dont need more mechanic changes and we dont need ppcs to deal splash. All that will do is push the energy meta to ER Larges, where targeting a single component is still possible albeit more difficult.

What ought to be done instead of the nerf stick are buffs.

Ex. decrease beam duration on all lasers. This will increase the likelihood of throwing most of the damage on a single component while it is balanced against ACs by low tonnage, a slight "damage spread(potentially)" and range limitations. They are balanced against PPCs by range and by lower heat generation. Tweak the duration number and find the sweet spot.

Convergence ought to be left alone. We don't need to push out drop durations to full 15 minute 12v12 when we have to grind for in game cash to buy mechs.

Another less realistic, but viable perspective. Increase the rate of movement for all mechs. Everything moves slow in this game by comparison to most shooters on the market. Get the speed scaling right across each mech class and increase across the board. The benefit here is that it becomes more difficult to target mechs on the move with pin point damage. Incentives for running DPS, I think so.

(I'm not saying make atlases move at 70, I'm saying make 50 feel more like 70 and so forth. Whatever the proper numbers are.)

Edited by VigilanceHawkwind, 14 May 2014 - 06:04 AM.

[InRev]

I have a riddle for everybody:

When is a "trick shot" not a "trick shot"?

When everyone and their ******* mother can do it.

Space Rome has been burning for more than a year now, but I can still hear music coming from Paul's fiddle.







If only stock matches weren't limited to organized private events

Edited by InRev, 14 May 2014 - 07:20 AM.

[General Taskeen]

To the OP, just come play stock matches with us. Its fun! Plus all the Mech loadouts are truly different and you'll feel like you are truly playing BattleTech.

[Gas Guzzler]

Because lasers are not good enough to justify staring at your target for a second.

I think laser heat should be tweaked across the board, and ghost heat thresholds increased, especially for the LL family. That way, there is more of a reason to take lasers. PPCs and ACs still remain powerful (as they are supposed to be), but someone with a cool hand could be potentially more effective with an array of lasers.

[Kaldor]

Dude

PPCS+ACs is a "skill shot"....

[Zacpod]

I think part of the problem is that direct-fire is the best "all around" so it's safe to take on any map.
They may not be the best in a tight map, but they do ok. They may not be the best on a sniper map, but they do ok. They do ok on all maps.

The problem is that (e.g) brawler mechs are 99% useless on maps like Alpine Peaks, so why would you bring a brawler and risk being useless if you draw a bad map?

If we were given a choice of mech to take once we saw what map we were on I think you'd see a lot of different loadouts in play. River City? Great, I'll bring my brawler and get up close! Alpine peaks - sweet, I'll bring my little ECM + AC/2 Cicada. Caustic? Awesome, I'll bring my Jager and blast'em to bits. Terra Therma? Nice! I'll bring something with lots of heat sinks.

Right now the fact that some very valid builds are totally useless on some maps means that people will take the best all-rounder - a mech that will work on every map, and sadly that currently means ACs+PPCs.

Let us choose between a few mechs once we land on a map and the meta will be far more varied.

(hope that all made sense - still working on my morning coffee.)

[Trauglodyte]

The problem isn't so much PPCs and/or ACs. Heck, the issue isn't even PPCs AND ACs. The Hatamoto-Ku (the Kurita Victor) came stock with 2 PPCs and an AC5. The Cicada 3C had a PPC, the 3M has a UAC5, and the BJ-1 has 2 PPCs. Nobody cries about any of that. The issue isn't that it is powerful but rather that it is freaking everywhere. What's worse is that there is no taxation on it because everyone can do it. I swear, I've been saying two things since Beta that continue to ring true:

• Small maps will ruin this game (it is stupid that you can hit someone with a weapon from starting point to starting point on Forrest Colony)
  
• The complete and total lack of heat penalties will create unchecked chaos

Maps aside, if you're pulling big heavy energy weapon or lots of general energy weapons, HEAT is the tax. The hotter you run, the harder it should be for you to hit things, see things, etc. If we had any semblance of TT heat penalties, PPCs+ACs would be an absolute joke because most of them would pop like firecrackers due to the inability of the MWO populace to govern their heat. IF heat impacted convergence (as in, if PGI applied the weapon spread mechanic that they added in for JJ use to an increasing penalty based on heat), you'd see a LOT less PPC/AC builds. More than likely, all you'd see is the AC only build with small energy backups which, btw, is how a lot of these "meta mechs" were originally designed. But, the biggest issue with this game is that everyone wants to go to the party but nobody wants to stay behind to clean up. In other words, we all want to be Billy badasses but nobody wants to get reigned in and PGI, for reasons that I'm unsure of (the only thing that I can come up with is that they're afraid that penalties will piss off/drive off their player base), doesn't seem willing to do anything about it.

So, buckle up and wear an f'ing helmet cause this is the world in which we play.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 14 May 2014 - 09:28 AM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Know why? lets recap.

Ghost heat. Killed multiple ppc mechs like the Awesome, and Stalker, and made using any more than 2 unhealthy. Also killed large laser heavy mechs.

Gauss charge mechanic killed mechs that used this as a primary weapon, and made boating them the main way of making them effective.

The recent autocannon nerf killed High dps builds that used mixed ac2s/Ac5s. They no longer can put out a constant stream of shells to make thier opponents ducks, rendering dpm builds MUCH less effective than before.

Ac20s nerfed, Ac10s have been nerfed, Srm hit detection is still horrible. So what weapon alternatives do you have besides metabuilds, and the recently buffed Lrms?

I personally have "Pauling" with my old Awesome 8Q with 3erppcs and 1 er large laser.

[Davers]

Trauglodyte, on 14 May 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

IF heat impacted convergence (as in, if PGI applied the weapon spread mechanic that they added in for JJ use to an increasing penalty based on heat), you'd see a LOT less PPC/AC builds.

Correct me if i am wrong, but I am pretty sure that the crosshair movement while using JJ does not effect weapon convergence. It just removes using the crosshairs to aim with.

[FupDup]

Davers, on 14 May 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

Correct me if i am wrong, but I am pretty sure that the crosshair movement while using JJ does not effect weapon convergence. It just removes using the crosshairs to aim with.

I think it also randomizes where your shots go. For example, my ERLLs and ML the other day, mounted in the same location (left torso), fired out at different angles while shooting at the red team (while jumping). It looked kinda weird.

[Trauglodyte]

Davers, on 14 May 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

Correct me if i am wrong, but I am pretty sure that the crosshair movement while using JJ does not effect weapon convergence. It just removes using the crosshairs to aim with.

When they nerfed JJs the first time, they added in:

- cockpit shake
- reticle shake
- weapon spread

The first two are self explanitory but you'll notice that, if you fire with arm mounted weapons while mid jump, the convergence point is pushed back. The down side to this addition, though, is that you can get around it with the "Lock Arms to Torso" toggle. Also, if your arm mounted weapons are incapable of actually moving due to the lack of lower arm actuators, you're also unaffected. I get around this in my BJ all of the time. So, for the most part, I'm left wondering what the point of the addition was.

Anyway, back to the point, IF they added this to the point where the toggle and lack of actuators didn't matter, it would go a long way to fixing things. Not moving and at 0 heat, your shots have a 100% chance of landing on the reticle given the distance between you and your reticle range. Moving and at like 50% heat, your convergence point is moved by 2-3x current range thus pushing your weapons further apart which leads to not all of the damage landing in one location. It isn't cone of fire because you control what happens but it does, to a point, fix pin point damage and people can't cry about it because it is up to them to manage their heat.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 14 May 2014 - 09:46 AM.

[Davers]

FupDup, on 14 May 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

I think it also randomizes where your shots go. For example, my ERLLs and ML the other day, mounted in the same location (left torso), fired out at different angles while shooting at the red team (while jumping). It looked kinda weird.

Ok, I hadn't noticed that when using my Highlander. I had assumed that just like screen shake it was purely a cosmetic thing.

[Void Angel]

The problem with buffing lasers is that you can only buff damage so much before the total output becomes unmanageable v. the static value of armor - and if you buff armor values (again) you're in a soaring cycle of increasing firepower. It's better to nerf over-performing systems, unless you want to reduce time to kill for some insane reason.

[Trauglodyte]

Void Angel, on 14 May 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

The problem with buffing lasers is that you can only buff damage so much before the total output becomes unmanageable v. the static value of armor - and if you buff armor values (again) you're in a soaring cycle of increasing firepower. It's better to nerf over-performing systems, unless you want to reduce time to kill for some insane reason.

The only real buff that Lasers need is dropping the heat on Mediums down to 3 like in TT. But, even that is a stretch.

[Almond Brown]

mwhighlander, on 13 May 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

There is really no such thing as a PPC minimum range if his team mate with the same AC/PPC config is 91meters to his left...

Then you should have a teammate inside that PPC Mechs 90 min. Or are you Rambo'ing and then complaining?

Edited by Almond Brown, 14 May 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[Void Angel]

Trauglodyte, on 14 May 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

The only real buff that Lasers need is dropping the heat on Mediums down to 3 like in TT. But, even that is a stretch.

I think they might need that, as well, but I'm not totally sold on it. Large lasers feel ok to me. What we really need is to tone down long-range firepower, because it's leading to a positive feedback loop:

• punishment for exposing yourself - especially if you screwed up - is immediate. You take damage, you lose pieces of your 'mech, and maybe die. This leads players to value cover over maneuver.
  
• rewards for closing in with short-range weapons are deferred, and rely on teammates. You really can't shoot back with short-range weapons, and if it's just you and maybe a couple-three of your teammates, you're going to get smashed, and probably not even make a positive trade in damage.
  
• Meanwhile your long-range 'mechs are rewarded instantly when they shoot someone at range, and the ability to use those guns while staying in or near cover makes them take less damage. Then they see the brawlers either hanging around waiting for the end-game - or dying in a pyre of shame - and learn to associate a push with "ramboing" and foolishness.
  
• This makes them less likely to support a brawl unless their team has a clear advantage in the match, and provides the final factor in the loop.

So when brawlers try to do their job; they are often defeated by long-ranged, pinpoint-meta opponents; this leads players to conclude that assaulting a position with brawlers is a bad idea unless you already have the advantage, and makes them less likely to support the brawlers; brawlers are discouraged from engaging the enemy until after one team gains enough of an advantage to feel safe pushing with their long-range 'mechs, making them less likely to support even other brawlers until that end-phase is reached; the circle is now complete - return to start of paragraph.


This is why "well, you should just have teammates with you when you brawl" isn't an informed argument - brawlers will very often be outnumbered by their meta-wielding foes, and will also have taken significant pinpoint damage just getting inside 90 meters. Sure, there's places where you can approach a position under cover - but by the same token there are always kill zones between those covered areas. And the enemy can jump above or climb over cover to beat on you from range as you approach.

Edited by Void Angel, 14 May 2014 - 10:35 AM.

[Void Angel]

From what I understand, the LRM buff was partially to reinvigorate an underutilized weapon system, and partly to take some of the load off brawlers - because LRMs do suppress snipers pretty well. The problem is that the one thing LRMs do better than suppress snipers? It's killing brawlers in the open. So while the LRM changes did need to happen, they didn't solve the current metagame problems.

[Trauglodyte]

Very valid points, Void. The problem then becomes: How do you limit long ranged weapons up close OR how do you reward close in weapons without making them OP?

SRMs are really where you need to start and the one thing that I can think of is allowing them to benefit from TAG/NARC. Another thing that you could do is to buff Pulse Lasers by either adding in a greater crit chance, ala MGs, and or give them some sort of ancillary benefit. What we can't do, though, is to buff normal tier 1 weapons because everyone carries them anyway which goes back to the feedback loop that you referenced. And, you can't really punish long ranged weapons for firing in close because the PPC already has a minimum range, for as short as it is, and the smaller ACs only had to-hit issues in close in TT. So, how do you translate that to MWO?

[kapusta11]

What else in there? Broken SRMs? Lasers that can't be cooled down by 23 doubles? LRMs that any competent player can avoid?

[Mcgral18]

Trauglodyte, on 14 May 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

Very valid points, Void. The problem then becomes: How do you limit long ranged weapons up close OR how do you reward close in weapons without making them OP?

SRMs are really where you need to start and the one thing that I can think of is allowing them to benefit from TAG/NARC. Another thing that you could do is to buff Pulse Lasers by either adding in a greater crit chance, ala MGs, and or give them some sort of ancillary benefit. What we can't do, though, is to buff normal tier 1 weapons because everyone carries them anyway which goes back to the feedback loop that you referenced. And, you can't really punish long ranged weapons for firing in close because the PPC already has a minimum range, for as short as it is, and the smaller ACs only had to-hit issues in close in TT. So, how do you translate that to MWO?

Decreasing the pulse laser heat would be a good start. Maybe a damage buff by a point, but one at a time.

MPLs are still at 5 heat, while TT is 4 heat. They got the same treatment as the ML, but no ghost heat.

While running the WubShee, I found the damage to be nice enough, but the heat is just too high, and dissipation too low.