75 replies to this topic

[Screech]

mogs01gt, on 15 May 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

If you actually play this game, how do you not know about the issues with Lights?

Can you please provide you light stats that show how dramatically overpowered they are?

[BLOOD WOLF]

Madw0lf, on 15 May 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

Not everyone is seeing balance issues, or atleast not the same ones.

I see myself getting killed pretty easily in my Locusts if I get too near an enemy...I was asking though for what, specifically, you feel PGI did that has lights so out of balance right now?

that's true. Weapons balance is real subjective. Unless it's too big of an issue to ignore.

[Caswallon]

Willard Phule, on 15 May 2014 - 03:38 AM, said:

Seriously?

Just to play Devil's advocate here....how, exactly, are they "balancing" the game? By removing any sort of filtering from the matchmaker.....allowing multiple premades and 12 man groups to drop with the PUGs? By using an Elo system that only allows your score to move up or down by 50 points if you do something other than what's predicted?

The Elo system used by PGI is worthless. It maxes out at 2800. You start with a 1400 when you complete your cadet missions and the MM was allowed to use a spread of 1400 points to put a match together. That means that there's really no differentiation with the matchmaker at all.

I know you're not referring to weapons balance. That's been a ridiculous issue since the beginning. Dude, they DOUBLED the armor and internal structure of the mechs just to deal with the weapons back in closed beta. That should have been their first clue that something was out of whack.

As far as the "outrageous fee".....I have no idea how much they paid for it, but it's a license that MS held on to for how many years with no activity? No, I'm willing to bet this was bargain basement for MS. And, besides, it's the cost of doing business. If you want to develop a title, you have to pay for the rights.....then, if you want to completely destroy the title, you do what PGI has been doing. And they're doing a fine job of it.

Mea Culpa Boss

I thought my comment "not in a way we can comprehend" was explanation enough that I just do not understand what they are doing any more than you do.

The fact that they dinked with TT stats bothers me not one bit. This is NOT a Table top game. Its not "canon" it will not play the same way, adjustments will be needed. I recognise I am not qualified to see whats the best way to do it. I am only qualified to say what I like, and some (most) times that's not what PGI seem to do *Shrug* It didn't pay for the games licence why should anyone listen to me? Now founders can argue that there founder fees did help pay for the licence so I get that Point of view.

As for Outrageous fee - when have MS ever not charged outrageous fees for anything they hold the rights to? The fact MS did not sell it to them outright is clue enough that they may been content to sit on the IP but they knew it still had some mileage money wise in it. A factoid PGI has proved many times over in the last few years.

My sole point is that we should have what fun we may for as long as it lasts. Nothing more, PGI seems to have some idea where they are going. I just wish they would have told the rest of us in an upfront straightforward manner and stuck to that statement...

I refuse to give my blood pressure a workout on "what they should do!" or "This game needs THIS!!" discussions.

[Mister Blastman]

Balance... yeah... Heh... When will that happen? This is all I have to say...




I wish it were positive. But we have been waiting how long now, over a year?

[Mycrus]

mogs01gt, on 15 May 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

The light balancing issues are huge. They pack way too much firepower for all the speed they have and their artificial durability is game changing.

Read my lips..

Lurn 2 play

Caswallon, on 15 May 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

Mea Culpa Boss

I thought my comment "not in a way we can comprehend" was explanation enough that I just do not understand what they are doing any more than you do.

The fact that they dinked with TT stats bothers me not one bit. This is NOT a Table top game. Its not "canon" it will not play the same way, adjustments will be needed. I recognise I am not qualified to see whats the best way to do it. I am only qualified to say what I like, and some (most) times that's not what PGI seem to do *Shrug* It didn't pay for the games licence why should anyone listen to me? Now founders can argue that there founder fees did help pay for the licence so I get that Point of view.

As for Outrageous fee - when have MS ever not charged outrageous fees for anything they hold the rights to? The fact MS did not sell it to them outright is clue enough that they may been content to sit on the IP but they knew it still had some mileage money wise in it. A factoid PGI has proved many times over in the last few years.

My sole point is that we should have what fun we may for as long as it lasts. Nothing more, PGI seems to have some idea where they are going. I just wish they would have told the rest of us in an upfront straightforward manner and stuck to that statement...

I refuse to give my blood pressure a workout on "what they should do!" or "This game needs THIS!!" discussions.

Now I get it. .. All this stupid decisions is to devalue the ip so they can secure at a lower price in the future..

[mogs01gt]

LMAO I love the troll light supporters in this thread!!!

[Dymlos2003]

mogs01gt, on 15 May 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

LMAO I love the troll light supporters in this thread!!!

If you can't kill lights then that's your problem. I take them out with ppcs.

[mogs01gt]

Dymlos2003, on 15 May 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

If you can't kill lights then that's your problem. I take them out with ppcs.

Im going follow the rest of the troll responses on these forums.

"video or it didnt happen"

Edited by mogs01gt, 15 May 2014 - 11:22 AM.

[Mcgral18]

mogs01gt, on 15 May 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

LMAO I love the troll light supporters in this thread!!!

If you don't want to learn to play, you could at least take streaks.

The whine...

[Adiuvo]

mogs01gt, on 15 May 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Im going follow the rest of the troll responses on these forums.

"video or it didnt happen"

Sure.

http://www.twitch.tv/jagerxii
http://www.twitch.tv/kaffeangst
http://www.twitch.tv...twinkyoverlord/
http://www.twitch.tv/heimdelight

All assault players, all able to kill a light with zero problems.

Killing a light is only a matter of aim. If you can't aim, then yes you'll have problems. As you should.

[Madw0lf]

mogs01gt, on 15 May 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

LMAO I love the troll light supporters in this thread!!!

Just because opinions differ doesnt make us trolls

[Mister Blastman]

mogs01gt, on 15 May 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Im going follow the rest of the troll responses on these forums.

"video or it didnt happen"

Bahahaha okay. You asked for it. Watch the spider die:



I'm sure I have plenty other footage. Lights are a joke unless they are packing machine guns like mad and they have to get close enough to use them... when you are hurt.

I don't even have to use my PPCs there! Just Ultra 5s.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 15 May 2014 - 12:32 PM.

[Malakie]

mogs01gt, on 15 May 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Im going follow the rest of the troll responses on these forums.

"video or it didnt happen"

It is your kind of response plus others like 'show us proof' and so on that are part of the problem. "video or it didn't happen"? What kind of crock response is that?

First off, someone already supplied a number of video links for your to look at. Second, I do not need to "prove" anything to you or the others than want to troll a post made from MY PERSPECTIVE and experience.

I ALSO never said that I thought lights were a bad thing. What I DID SAY is that in many games we see light mechs running with firepower equivalent to medium and larger mechs and apparently NOT having an issue with HEAT.

While a heavy taking on a light mech is a toss up normally since the heavy mech does not have the speed nor agility, when you hit a light mech with two PPC's, two LX-AC-10's and a couple lasers in an alpha strike and it does not slow down the light NOR seem to impact his targeting, something is not right.

I may not be the best player, may not be perfect on targeting and so forth... BUT I can hold my own and when I hit a light mech with a couple alpha strikes and still get taken out in a matter of seconds.... something is not right and is unbalanced.

One issue I have noted is this game lacks a VERY critical part of the dice roll.. a mech falling down and having to get back up. And THAT one issue right there is also lending into this.. Many times a light mech can be hit with a massive barrage and based on pilot skill be knocked on its ass.. a counter to its speed and agility for a large slow mech. And the pilot skill AND DAMAGE to the mech determine its ability to regain it feet which means if a heavy mech knocks one down they have a fighting chance now to take the fast mech out before it can regain its feet.

Instead light mechs just run circles around everyone in this game and destroy even assault mechs within seconds.. not minutes, seconds.

Those of you that want to call names, yell for videos or proof or whatever are most likely those that have figured out some loop hole and use that to your advantage.. and you are complaining about my comments because you do not want to lose that advantage.

Battletech is supposed to be based on two primary things. 1) HEAT, weight, weapons in concert with the mechs size. And 2) PILOT SKILL in not only targeting but more important, in keeping the mech UPRIGHT and off its back.... THAT is why Battletech relies so much (or is supposed too) on piloting skills.. the ability to keep a damaged mech on its legs and moving is directly and completely related to piloting skill, not how big your guns are. Even a mech that has LOST a leg can regain its feet with Elite pilots at the controls....

When I first started the thread I did so RIGHT AFTER losing a match 0-12... which is way out of balance. There were myself in a Jagermech with dual PPC's, AC-2's and a couple lasers and enough heat sinks to allow me to fire ripple constantly. A long range missile boat setup Stalker that I was guarding along with an Atlas and a Hunchback, both with AC-20's. The Atlas also had some LRM 10's mounted. We watched the Atlas and Stalker punch out salvo after salvo at a number of light and mediums trying to crest a hill. Numerous impacts were shown in targeting. NONE took enough damage to slow them down in the least and that is NOT counting all the strikes from my mech's PPC's nor the Hunchbacks. NOR the other lances that also hit those mechs on their own...

And yet, this group of mechs not only took out all those other mechs working the crest of the hill, they then came right down at us in full clear view and tore us apart as well while not losing a SINGLE one of their mechs.

It was after this game that I immediately came to the forum and started this thread because there was no doubt in my mind something was not right. We poured fire into these mechs and they shook it all off like the Clan Mechs did when they first invaded the Inner Sphere. The only difference here was my mech utilized both Ferro Fibrous Armor and enhanced internal structures. This mech I set up with MAX armor, double heat sinks, XL engine and firepower as my alpha strike mech. As long as I use ripple fire I can easily maintain my heat threshold but I can rip off two full alpha strikes without shutdown due to heat if need be. I went with no kinetic based weapons so save space and weight to make it all fit and keep my mech able to move at a reasonable speed and with reasonable agility.

So while some of you want to try and defend things as they are, many of us who have been involved in Battletech for years can tell you there is a bit of balance work to be done.

I DO want to say however, that I am NOT stating this as a derogatory thing toward the devs or the game... Simply making sure they are aware of it AND wondering myself if they do, what kind of time frame for balancing we are looking at.. They HAVE done an outstanding job overall... but they need to be aware there are some issues needing to be looked at.. and thus I am trying to offer my personal CONSTRUCTIVE observations toward that end.

[Adiuvo]

Malakie, on 15 May 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

snip

I understand your frustrations but none of the issues you're facing are a result of imbalance. It's a matter of game mechanics, and you can benefit from these mechanics as well.

There are 4 viable light mechs and loadouts currently. The JR7-F, the JR7-D the FS9-E, and the RVN-3L. None of these mechs have firepower or playstyles even close to the average medium mech or heavy. They are all limited in dmg/heat and range. Range is the big kicker here. The only mech that has any is the 3L but that mech is horrid in a short range fight due to its DPS problems. The rest are limited to ~300m effective. Meanwhile a typical Shadowhawk will be running some kind of autocannon and energy setup, probably giving it an effective range of up to 700m or so, while a heavy will either be a brawl setup with AC20s and energy backings (giving it much more DPS) or a sniper setup with PPCs and autocannons. Furthermore mediums and heavies will have front loaded weaponry whereas lights all have lasers, requiring a hold on the target for 1s. The damage output of lights is lower than any good medium or heavy build.

Heavies do have the speed and agility if you're building them right to track any mech moving at any speed and any range. Assaults are able to as well, though there are some issues when, say, a STD 300 Atlas is fighting a Locust at 170kph sub 50m. This is the major reason why the heavy and assault vs. light matchup is drastically in the bigger mech's favor.

An alpha strike from a heavy mech, assuming it's a proper build, ranges from 25-40 damage. This is crippling to a light unless you're hitting different components with every shot. Your build, which I'm assuming is this, is not good for taking out light mechs. It's somewhat OK at being a long range mech but close range versus a light your PPCs, if the light knows what they're doing, will be doing 0 damage and AC2s have to be the worst weapon at killing a light besides LBXs, since they spread damage everywhere. Lights die to high damage weapons best, not to DPS weapons.

If you're expecting a light mech to fall over just due to you shooting them once, giving you an opportunity to shoot them again for free, then that will completely destroy any validity light mechs have in the game. The class is boned enough as is in high Elo play, since one to two shots will just about always take you out of a fight and people can aim.

Lights can't destroy any mech in 'seconds' unless that mech has already been crippled. Let's take an Ember for example, the light mech with the most DPS, versus your Jagermech. I'm going to assume that this Ember pilot has perfect aim and is hitting your right torso with every shot, from the front. The Jagermech build I linked has 52 armor in the front, with an internal health of 30, giving it 82 total health. An Ember has 9 maximum DPS for 40 seconds. Your 52 armor will last 5.7 seconds from the Ember, essentially 2 alpha strikes considering that the medium lasers have a cooldown period of 3 seconds. So, 6 seconds total. The Ember's DPS changes now that your internal structure is exposed, effectively doubling its machine gun DPS, raising it from 1 to 2. This gives the Ember 13 DPS. Your Jagermech has an internal health of 30, as I mentioned. This gives it a TTD of 2.3 seconds, and to make the numbers nice let's just say that's 2.5. So, 8.5 seconds total for your Jagermech to die, if this Ember has perfect hit reg, perfect aim, and you aren't torso twisting at all. 8.5 seconds, due to the medium lasers having a cooldown of 3 seconds, is realistically 3 alpha strikes. Due to the inherent hit reg problems that lasers have, I'd expect 4. Now, if we assume you aren't brand new to the game and know how to torso twist, the TTK for this Ember will go up massively. The Ember will spread damage to your other side torso and CT, which should at the very least triple the time it takes for him to kill you.

Meanwhile your Jagermech has a DPS of 13.48 for 9 seconds. The Ember I linked above has a total of 40 health. You will kill him in about 3 seconds. Now this isn't realistic either since you're not going to be hitting the same component with the weapons you have, but at least until that Ember closes with 90m you have the advantageous matchup due to the 20 pinpoint damage coming from the PPCs. Chain fire only exacerbates this problem.

This is the first Mechwarrior game where lights are not completely hung out to dry in the combat area. All classes have viable mechs in them. The optimal playstyles between the classes are incredibly different. Assaults need to have some kind of weakness and that weakness, currently, is them being alone. Even this still needs adjustments considering how agile they are. You can't give one mech class all the armor, all the weapons, and all the agility. Since this game has zero respawns there needs to be a reason to bring a light mech from the get go and PGI, barring a few balance problems, has obtained that goal.

[Alexandrix]

I'm glad light mechs are a viable choice.I'm glad they can be a threat on the field.
I just wish they would take damage consistently.It's infuriating to hit a light running parallel to you at mach 5 , watch your AC20 shell explosion engulf the guys mechs....then he scurries off without his armor even getting scuffed.

Doesn't happen every time mind you.Sometimes the light falls over dead in a spectacular fashion.But,it happens often enough to be an issue.

Of course that's more a problem with MWO's garbage hit detection than light mechs themselves I suppose.

Edited by Alexandrix, 15 May 2014 - 05:34 PM.

[mogs01gt]

Mister Blastman, on 15 May 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

Bahahaha okay. You asked for it. Watch the spider die:



I'm sure I have plenty other footage. Lights are a joke unless they are packing machine guns like mad and they have to get close enough to use them... when you are hurt.

I don't even have to use my PPCs there! Just Ultra 5s.

Keep the troll posts coming!!!!
LMAO so you hit a spider running at half speed with the typical OP mech and OP meta load out....So I should align myself with trolls??.right..... Even though there are posts everyday about hit registration issues on Light mechs...yeah its all FAKE, L2P scrubs is the answer!!!


LMAO man I love trolls! I feel like Im in the LoL forums! And we wonder why new players leave.....

[Madw0lf]

mogs01gt, on 15 May 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

LMAO man I love trolls! I feel like Im in the LoL forums! And we wonder why new players leave.....

Because anyone with a differing opinion is automatically labeled as a troll?

[Adiuvo]

mogs01gt, on 15 May 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

Keep the troll posts coming!!!!
LMAO so you hit a spider running at half speed with the typical OP mech and OP meta load out....So I should align myself with trolls??.right..... Even though there are posts everyday about hit registration issues on Light mechs...yeah its all FAKE, L2P scrubs is the answer!!!


LMAO man I love trolls! I feel like Im in the LoL forums! And we wonder why new players leave.....

My god you're bad.

[Mister Blastman]

Adiuvo, on 15 May 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

My god you're bad.

Not just bad. Terribad. :-|

mogs01gt, on 15 May 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

Keep the troll posts coming!!!!
LMAO so you hit a spider running at half speed with the typical OP mech and OP meta load out....So I should align myself with trolls??.right..... Even though there are posts everyday about hit registration issues on Light mechs...yeah its all FAKE, L2P scrubs is the answer!!!


LMAO man I love trolls! I feel like Im in the LoL forums! And we wonder why new players leave.....

Don't hate the player, hate the game. ;P (so cliche I know) I'm just using the best tools given to me. As any top player will.

[White Bear 84]

Nice to see *another* balance thread bringing all the regular forumites out of the wood work.

Now that the 'vocal minority' has spoken, balance will be implemented in the most convoluted and random way conceivable.

Before implementing balance, a cooldown timer will need to be added to the forum responses in order to prevent angst spamming, while ghost heat will be implemented on time itself to ensure if players try to rush fixes, they will overheat and explode...

Sometimes I wonder if it better for us to say nothing at all...

Edited by White Bear 84, 16 May 2014 - 12:16 AM.