152 replies to this topic

[ZenTeapot]

Tesunie, on 15 May 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

I still have to ask the same thing I asked in a post above... wrist strain? From the UI? Really? But not from the game... am I understanding this correctly? Please enlighten me on this. I'm not getting how the UI is causing extra wrist strain than the game itself. Not to mention, how often are you using the Mechlab? I barely touch the mechlab unless I have a new mech to try, or a new idea to play out on a mech, or the occasional adjustment to a current mech. I'm probably inside mechlab once every 20-50+ game matches, depending upon if it's a new mech or not. (I'm normally working on something new to gain XP in and level up. Lately I've been playing my older mechs again to get the dust off them.)

Yes wrist strain from the UI, but not from the game. The game would give you wrist strain but only if I play it for hours, but the UI does give me wrist strains constantly, because I have to hover at different place to get information, click through layers of tabs to change a loadout. When play the game, you move your mouse around a concentric circle, despite the long moving distance(addtively), it's actually not that bad. In the UI, I'm traveling all over the place on the screen. This turned out to be terrible for wrist strain. Are you enlightened now?
Btw, I use the mechlab often. You should not make assumptions about how people are using it. Seriously you do not need someone to be extra-intolerant to pick on the UI. Maybe I am extra-intolerant, but evident in this post and others, my situation is shared by many.

Edited by ZenTeapot, 15 May 2014 - 06:47 PM.

[ZenTeapot]

Tesunie, on 15 May 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

Homeworlds (awesome game) had a very hard UI to work with. It was simple, but just moving your ships could be challenging sometimes...

I had some PS1 game (Saga-something-or-other, I can't recall the game but I still own it) had a poor UI and overall game design.

Apparently EVE looks like it's complicated...

This is not the worst UI I have had to use. If you think this is bad, try NWN (Neverwinter Nights) where you have to sift through a ton of menus sometimes... while things are happening in the game still... and seconds can count... Oops. Too late. You took too long finding the right menu button. (Though they did have quick slots thankfully.) NWN was still very playable, and still a lot of fun to play.

Homeworlds UI is what I call complicated but okay. Honestly if you know anything about UI design the difference is huge. So far I do not get your point. You are debating back and forth regarding the words I used, for what they described are my actual experiences, and gave examples of UI though complicated, are actually better than MWO now(I do not stand behind EVE since i never played it). Again let me say this, if you feel the UI is okay for you? Fine. You've made your point. But it is preventing me from playing this game. I paid for it. I want to continue to play. Many are like me. So they need to respond with what they are going to do with it.

Edited by ZenTeapot, 15 May 2014 - 06:56 PM.

[Tesunie]

ZenTeapot, on 15 May 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

Yes wrist strain from the UI, but not from the game. The game would give you wrist strain but only if I play it for hours, but the UI does give me wrist strains constantly, because I have to hover at different place to get information, click through layers of tabs to change a loadout. When play the game, you move your mouse around a concentric circle, despite the long moving distance(addtively), it's actually not that bad. In the UI, I'm traveling all over the place on the screen. This turned out to be terrible for wrist strain. Are you enlightened now?
Btw, I use the mechlab often. You should not make assumptions about how people are using it. Seriously you do not need someone to be extra-intolerant to pick on the UI. Maybe I am extra-intolerant, but evident in this post and others, my situation is shared by many.

I can kinda understand the wrist thing a little bit, but I still don't get why it's so much different than playing the game. I suspect I wont unless I have the same problems with my wrists as you do.

How often do you use your Mechlab? Why do you end up using it so often?

The "Extra-intolerant" comment was a counter to you "extra-tolerant" comment. I was trying to make a point. Apparently it was seen as something I didn't intend for it to be. However, for every thread/comment I see saying that the UI is "Gamebreaking" I see just as many if not more saying that, though it might be bad, it isn't preventing them from playing the game and it's still fully functional.

I can agree that the UI could use work and is poorly set up at the moment. I can't agree with your claims of it being "gamebreaking" or "not usable". I am by no means trying to refute or deny your claims of the nature of it's design and what improvements could be made on it. I am merely saying that, for me at least, it isn't as bad as you seem to be making it sound.

I think we might have to chalk this into the "agree to disagree" category?

ZenTeapot, on 15 May 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:

Homeworlds UI is what I call complicated but okay. Honestly if you know anything about UI design the difference is huge. So far I do not get your point. You are debating back and forth regarding the words I used, for what they described are my actual experiences, and gave examples of UI though complicated, are actually better than MWO now(I do not stand behind EVE since i never played it). Again let me say this, if you feel the UI is okay for you? Fine. You've made your point. But it is preventing me from playing this game. I paid for it. I want to continue to play. Many are like me. So they need to respond with what they are going to do with it.

Movement was probably one of the most difficult aspects of the interface, especially if one needed to move vertically up or down...

I actually do understand design concepts. I haven't been going completely into depth on my opinion on the design of the UI, things I think are good, and things I think could be changed. I could go and say all this, but I don't think it'd be overly helpful. I agree with your notions of what is needing work for the most part. However, I can not agree with the wording unto which you apply into your statements, as well as the approach unto which you present your points.


You paid for it?
...
It's free to play. You can buy in game items, but you did not "pay" for the UI. None of us have "paid" for this game. We buy additions and stuff within the game. This would be akin to me saying I "paid" for Gaiaonline because I bought a $20 Gaia Cash Card a few years back. I have a free account with them. I can use their site for free. All I did was buy some digital clothing in support for the site (to dress up my digital avatar). I do not own the site. (And because I spent money with Gaia, it does not mean I can make demands saying I spent money into the site and what I say should have more meaning. Not saying you are saying this here, but I've heard this in arguments before, so I figured I'd say this now.)

[GalaxyBluestar]

Kilo 40, on 15 May 2014 - 12:26 AM, said:

but thank god there's no engine icons.

lol mwo suffers from too much same space waste and many many clicks amongst some lack of info/disorganised content.

eve here is suffering from info overload and option paranoir, have we got everything? no? cram the screen. simillar problems but from two different angles.

still is this an excuse for MWO? well no it isn't. it's just apart of the awfull club and now there's more stuff i'm awear of to avoid entirely.

Tesunie, on 15 May 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

How often do you use your Mechlab? Why do you end up using it so often?

that's the kinda question that tells me i shouldn't use the mech lab ever. even though a draw card to this game over others is the mechlab and a great deal of the game revolves around using it especially a newbie building the garage up if you're asking that kinda question then it sounds like you don't want to cater to these functions. shame when its as described a huge part of the game, so it should be as easy and accessable as possible.

i wish they'd hurry up with smurfy adaptions but its clans first and then who knows, CW would be good but i think we'll just get more HSR and weapons tweaking for another year *sigh*

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 15 May 2014 - 07:54 PM.

[ZenTeapot]

Tesunie, on 15 May 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

You paid for it?
...
It's free to play. You can buy in game items, but you did not "pay" for the UI. None of us have "paid" for this game. We buy additions and stuff within the game. This would be akin to me saying I "paid" for Gaiaonline because I bought a $20 Gaia Cash Card a few years back. I have a free account with them. I can use their site for free. All I did was buy some digital clothing in support for the site (to dress up my digital avatar). I do not own the site. (And because I spent money with Gaia, it does not mean I can make demands saying I spent money into the site and what I say should have more meaning. Not saying you are saying this here, but I've heard this in arguments before, so I figured I'd say this now.)

For the paying part, free-to-play does not mean the game is free. I pay for in game items, which is the same as I pay for the game. This is business model, as all the other free-to-play games. UI is an integral part of the game. A bar makes money from drinks, but their end product is the experience of going to a bar, not only the drinks, that includes staff friendliness, clean environment. So yes, when I pay for in-game items, I'm also paying for the UI. It would be ridiculous to argue otherwise since half of the game industry is running this business model and they all understand it. It's really not an argument, as it's simply the business model in action here. If I did not pay a dime, I wouldn't be whining about it here. I paid $200, which is a decent amount considering how much console game/pc games cost nowadays. I'm entitled to their customer service, which when cannot be provided, they should provide an explanation.

Edited by ZenTeapot, 15 May 2014 - 08:19 PM.

[Tesunie]

ZenTeapot, on 15 May 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

For the paying part, free-to-play does not mean the game is free. I pay for in game items, which is the same as I pay for the game. This is business model, as all the other free-to-play games. UI is an integral part of the game. A bar makes money from drinks, but their end product is the experience of going to a bar, not only the drinks, that includes staff friendliness, clean environment. So yes, when I pay for in-game items, I'm also paying for the UI. It would be ridiculous to argue otherwise since half of the game industry is running this business model and they all understand it. It's really not an argument, as it's simply the business model in action here. If I did not pay a dime, I wouldn't be whining about it here. I paid $200, which is a decent amount considering how much console game/pc games cost nowadays. I'm entitled to their customer service, which when cannot be provided, they should provide an explanation.

Okay. I just heard the bad argument. "I paid $X into this game. They should hear me out as I'm a real supporter and a paying customer. I'm more special than the people who haven't paid anything for the game." (AKA: Entitlement.)

And now, I'm done. Just because you paid money into the game doesn't mean you can start making demands and PGI should listen. If you can't grasp that concept, you are beyond my help as well as my ability to reason or debate with any farther.
(And I paid $80+ into this game... doesn't mean I can demand anything either.)

Also, you want customer service? Have you talked to their support system about this? Though, there isn't much they can do for you either. The forums is the wrong place...

The problems you are experiencing with UI I can agree with. However, the problems with your posts kill your argument.

Problems with your posts:
- Demands.
- Entitlement.
- Exaggerated claims.
- Over-generalization. (Everyone is complaining about it.)
- Adding in "convent complaints". ("OW! It hurts my wrist now!" 4-5 pages into the conversation and not mentioned in the OP or even on the first page as far as I can recall.)
- Etc.

Drop the demands. Remove the entitlement. Stop exaggerating and using hyperbole on your claims. Stop generalizing with "That +50 page feedback" (which probably agreed with you as much as disagreed with you, and had many same posters removing even more validity on the size of the thread) and "Lots of people agree with me".
The interface WORKS fine. It is FUNCTIONAL. Many people are still playing the game perfectly fine with no hindrances. Thus, it is NOT GAME BREAKING.
(Your claims are diminished by your presentation, no mater how valid they may have once been.)

[ZenTeapot]

Tesunie, on 15 May 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

Problems with your posts:
- Demands.
- Entitlement.
- Exaggerated claims.
- Over-generalization. (Everyone is complaining about it.)
- Adding in "convent complaints". ("OW! It hurts my wrist now!" 4-5 pages into the conversation and not mentioned in the OP or even on the first page as far as I can recall.)
- Etc.

Demands. Yes. Maybe you don't like the way I put it. Too bad many people said realistic and constructive things that have all been ignored. If you don't go stronger it does not get their attention.
Entitlement. Yes. Paying customers at least deserve some response from the service provide when stuff goes wrong.
Exaggerated claims. No. My claims are not exaggerated.
Over-generalization. No. I have not over-generalized. I have repeatedly said that many shared my sentiments, not all. and I have repeatedly refer to other posts.
- convent complaints. The wrist thing appeared before in other posts. I'm just talking from my experiences here. I've seen other people posting about it as well. There is no need to post every critique I have about the UI in my original post, since I've referenced the one with plenty of good critiques.

Yes people are playing. Yes I'm harsh on my words. Does it invalidate my arguments? No. Do you like the way I presented my arguments? I guess not. That's okay with me. I'm trying to get the attention of the devs so they could fix something so glaringly bad. Am I making demands? Yes. Is it reasonable demands? I think so. Many think the same. Does PGI have to meet my demands? Not necessarily, but there are consequences, not necessarily consequences they'll value, but then some people may just part ways with the game. However you want to stress your point of view, it really has little to do with what I'm getting at here. Seriously the conversation we are having really is not productive at all. For the game's sake stop defending PGI and help them realize their real problems. Stop arguing for argument's sake. If you lack some better things to do with your life, go configure some mechs in this fine and functional UI that you defended so much.

Edited by ZenTeapot, 15 May 2014 - 09:49 PM.

[Xmith]

With the latest UI, it does take more clicks that I would prefer. I've gotten use to it at this point. I go to mechlab after every match to make sure my consumables are loaded.

From what I understand, poor positioning of your wrist while using your keyboard and mouse can cause inflammation.

[White Bear 84]

Tesunie, on 14 May 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

There are some people with "oversized monitors"

24" is oversized?

[ZenTeapot]

Xmith, on 15 May 2014 - 10:26 PM, said:

With the latest UI, it does take more clicks that I would prefer. I've gotten use to it at this point. I go to mechlab after every match to make sure my consumables are loaded.

From what I understand, poor positioning of your wrist while using your keyboard and mouse can cause inflammation.

Thanks for the reminder . I did not know about the inflammation part.

[Haakon Magnusson]

Deathlike, on 14 May 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

"The Hanging Paul" would be a bestseller, followed by the nodding (off) Russ bobblehead.

Can't agree with Paul item, I feel he's as much a victim of corporate droids as any of us (Listening to Paul on recent ngng podcast definitely reinforced this opinion. Sure he makes unpopular call now and then but I'd think more than he can say his hands are tied... I trust him to be the last of topdogs at pgi that is actually wanting to make a good game that us foolish idio diehard BT fans love. Then again bullseye puppet would be more appropriate, sadly)

Although Russ bobblehead would sell

[RedDragon]

Kilo 40, on 15 May 2014 - 12:26 AM, said:

but thank god there's no engine icons.

Just wanted to point this out (me of all people, I hate WoW, but my GF plays it): This is not the normal game, but players like to use mods and tools to customize their UI. So this is not the game's fault but some player's customized UI.

And yes, UI2.0 sucks.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

I don't get what's so bad about the UI...

I mean, it took me a little digging, but I can navigate this UI just as good as I could the old one. It's really not that hard...

People complaining about not understanding how to view their components? not understanding how to find things?

I mean come on, did they even try to figure out the new UI?

Could it be more intuitive? Yes, much more so, I won't deny that. There are some frustrating things. [mech customization should default to the exploded mech view diagram for instance] But it's not unuseable. It's just different, and people always ***** about change.

[KovarD]

Psycho Farmer, on 15 May 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

You're a volunteer moderator.

Can we ignore him? I see PGI don't have criteria to choose any volunteer moderator...

[Tesunie]

White Bear 84, on 15 May 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

24" is oversized?

I do not know what the conditions are to produce the problem. It has something to do with monitor size and monitor screen resolution. That's about as far as I know about it, as it doesn't effect me. However, too small of font I can see (or have a hard time seeing? Oh, bad pun) being a usability issue.

[Rebas Kradd]

and zero, on 14 May 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

Well, some of us are not simply happy with a [barely] functional product that is thoroughly and profoundly mediocre-or worse-in almost every way. Just because it doesn't crash/glitch out constantly anymore does not make it acceptable.

Wait, wait, wait. Go back and read your own words again. First you say it's barely functional. Then you say it doesn't crash/glitch out anymore. Which is it?

I can't argue with the UI2.0 issues, but don't exaggerate and make your complaints vague and sweeping. Address the problems specifically.

[Anjian]

Horrible or not (its truly horrible for me), my main concern is that the UI, or at least the main menu/lobby, often server disconnects for me, or it would sometimes sync eternally, forcing me to use the Windows Task Manager to kill the client and relogin, which sometimes ends with another endless sync or another server disconnect.

This level of quality is unacceptable. I was planning to purchase multiple clan mechs. but experiencing this? Unacceptable. I am going to withhold all purchases until there is a satisfatory level of quality and reliability.

[Tesunie]

Anjian, on 16 May 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

Horrible or not (its truly horrible for me), my main concern is that the UI, or at least the main menu/lobby, often server disconnects for me, or it would sometimes sync eternally, forcing me to use the Windows Task Manager to kill the client and relogin, which sometimes ends with another endless sync or another server disconnect.

This level of quality is unacceptable. I was planning to purchase multiple clan mechs. but experiencing this? Unacceptable. I am going to withhold all purchases until there is a satisfatory level of quality and reliability.

This I can also see as "game breaking".

Have you submitted a report to support? Have you checked if it's a problem on your end? (Could be a service provider issue, or you lagging out.) I'm no computer tech, but there are ways to track where your internet connects to and how fast/reliable it is... Sadly, I am of no farther help on this issue.

I'd suggest you contact Support on this issue. That is a serious issue and they might be able to help you.

[Joseph Mallan]

White Bear 84, on 15 May 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

24" is oversized?

To a man with a 20" monitor...

[Tesunie]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 May 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

To a man with a 20" monitor...

Measured corner to corner, right? My current monitor is 19".

Doing the measuring for 24"... it does "look" big in my head. (Of course, I could use a large monitor like that for my art...)