133 replies to this topic

[Craig Steele]

Tukayyid was the pivotal battle of Operation Revival, it's outcome would determine the fate of the Clan's drive on Terra and so much more. Tales of treachery and heroism would spin out of the fires of Tukayyid feeding the imaginations and fears of billions.

But this battle which has become such a centre piece of the Battletech Universe is often misunderstood, wrongly quoted or simply distorted to generate incalculable outcomes other than the ones told to us in Canon. Much of this can be attributed to the various sources that viewed the battle from their own "lens".

So this thread is to collate as much information as possible so that the MW:O player base has an opportunity to review the Canon as it is presented.

So where to start, well at the beginning of course.

Clan Wolf Source Book "CWSB" tells us that it was Focht himself who initiated the battle "... Tentative feelers about bidding for Terra were sent out to the IlKhan...." (pg 46 CWSB) in mid February, and he further records....

"We agreed on the following terms. Tukayyid would serve as the proxy battlefield for Terra, and the Comguards would act as its defender. To more easily determine the winner, the contest would be fought for the planets 12 major cities. Twelve armies of Comguards would defend the cities against the Clans presently within the Inner Sphere. The battle would have no time limit. The commanders of both sides would decide when their troops had suffered too much to effectively fight on." (pg 46, CWSB)

This then was the agreement between the combatants. This was the agreement ratified by the Grand Council. This was Ulric's task as Il Khan, to take the 12 major cities with the 7 Clans at his disposal. The distinction between a major city and a minor city becomes important. Fochts task was to defend the 12 major cities with the 12 Com Guard armies at his disposal.

When it comes later to talking about who won and who lost, it is important to remember what the actual objectives were. The canon is quite clear, possession of the 12 major cities of Tukayyid when the commanders agreed their forces could no longer fight was the objective. It was the only objective. There was no time limit.

I have yet to find a canon source with a definitive total troop strength for either side but regardless of an approximation, Comguard enjoyed not only the advantages that naturally apply to defending a target, but at least a 2.0 to 1 mech advantage or more. (source, various troop strengths across Source Books. Roughly a Galaxy averages 4 Clusters or crica 200 mechs, An Army has 1,200 odd units and say 60% mechs = 720 or so, ergo circa 4.2k Clan vs circa 8.5k Comguard mechs).

Some Comguard TO&E's have much higher % of mech strength and given the nature of the battle planned, it is more likely that Comguard had a heavier mech centered force, as much as 70% of an Army. If this were so, Comguard deployed closer to 10k mechs.

Next in the timeline is the combatants preparations. Comguard is easy enough to discern, they moved the 12 armies to Tukayyid and dug in, preparing the planet for a major battle. They "...evacuated Tukayyid's civilian population..." (pg 68 Comstar Source Book) to ensure minimal collateral damage. They organised their logistics and waited for the blips on their screens to appear.

Comstar prepared for the battle as was the normal conduct of a planetary assault. There are numerous examples in 4th Succession War and War of 3039 Source Books but the general principal is for a smaller Mech heavy force to secure the chosen drop zone, followed by the rest of the Invasion Force landing, concentrating forces before striking out to secure key objectives.

Contesting the landing zones then would be the first phase of the expected assault, and Focht placed his armies such that 6 of them defended the 12 major cities. The other half of his armies he held back with transport assets to be his counter attack, hitting the Clans as required to throw them off planet.

The Clans however, had a different plan.

Ulric decreed that the Clans would bid for targets and the timing of their attacks. He was not only dividing up his troop strength, but he was spreading it out over a timeline.

In effect, Ulric was planning to feed the Clans one by one into the Comguard defenses. (discerned from pg 47 CWSB) As the senior commander he would leave each Clan unsupported against the Comguard forces until the next Clan reached its drop time. This was his plan to defeat the Comguard and secure victory as he was sworn to do as Il Khan.

The Khans bid, worked out their targets and landing orders, then prepared for their expected victory.

Ulric had left each Clan to decide its own strategy and its individual preparations. He counselled them on the importance of logistics which he considered to be a primary factor in success for the upcoming battle but made no attempt to ensure the Khans were prepared as he thought they needed to be. Only with Clan Wolf did he ensure that Khan Natasha understood and prepared for additional logistic support. (pg 47 CWSB)

What happened next? On the first of May 3052, the Clans attacked.

First to land was Clan Smoke Jaguar, bidding down to just 2 Galaxies to secure the honour of attacking first and targeting the major cities of Dinju Heights and Port Racice. Initially the battle went well with the 6th Dragoons annihilating the 50th Division to secure the landing zones (pg 29 Tukayyid Source Book "TSB") but the balance of the Comguard 5th army entered the fray. Reinforced by the 2nd Army, the Jaguars fought a furious action in the Dinju Pass which is related as "... had heavy casualties on both sides. Though the Smoke Jaguars finally broke through, both their Khans died leading the attack" (pg 47 CWSB) and then "Il Khan Ulric Kerensky chose to terminate the Jaguars campaign" (pg 29 TSB).

As a result "....Beta Galaxy obediently retreated to their dropships...." but "...Ignoring the Il Khan's order to retreat, the Dragoons continued their advance..." however "...the sheer numerical superiority..... eventually overwhelmed them" (pg 29 TSB) (pg 62 Invading Clans Sourcebook "ICSB")

Clan Smoke Jaguar suffered 30% dead and 60% wounded (pg 52 CWSB) in its campaign. Whilst they broke the Comguard defenses, they could not secure either objective before they were ordered to retreat by Ulric.

Next into the conflagration was Clan Steel Viper.

Attacking the 6th Comguard army with 3 Galaxies (Alpha, Gamma and Zeta, pg 79 TSB) to secure the cities of major Kozice Ranch Station and Kelly Springs. The 6th Army "....fought a delaying action, using artillery and aerospace..." however "...the forces of Clan Steel Viper continued to push forward." (pg 48 CWSB).

"The next day the Vipers slowly forced the ComGuards back to Devils Bath." where "The Comguard defenders suffered serious damage." However "The victory at Devils bath cost the Steel Viper Clan most of its ammunition, leaving them ill prepared for the counteroffensive launched by two reserve divisions of the 2nd and 5th Comguard Armies" (pg 48 CWSB). These were the same armies fresh from victory over the Jaguars that had been redeployed once the Jaguars had collapsed / retreated as ordered.

"When both Khan's were wounded in action, they called for retreat" (pg 48 CWSB). Clan Steel Viper sustained 9% dead and 29% wounded (pg 52 CWSB) and did not secure either objective, defeated by a counter attack by armies redeployed from the Jaguar zone.

Third down on Tukayyid was the Nova Cats. Targeting the major cities of Joje and Tost with 3 Galaxies against the Comguards 7th Army and elements of the 12th Army.

An initial reverse saw a dropship crash with no survivors leaving the Cats more shorthanded then they had planned. The next few days tell a tale of furious action with both sides swapping casualties and ground at a rapid pace with the penultimate act being the capture of Comguard supply depots by the Cats. A fresh counter attack by the Comguard retook the supply depots before they could be used and the remaining Nova Cats fell back to their drop ships.

The Nova Cats had failed to take either objective, and whilst they had inflicted more damage on Comguard than any other Clan (pg 117 ICSB) just 3 Stars of Omnimechs made it off planet (pg 48 CWSB)

The Ghost Bears attacked next, striving for the cities of Spanac and Luk with 3 Galaxies. Their opponent was Comguards 1st Army.

Initial attacks went well and the Comguards 1st Army was pierced but attacking elements were in turn caught by Comguards 4th Army counter attacking from Luk. The Bears 7th Guards Cluster were destroyed in a Comguard trap by elements of Comguards 12th Army and their Beta and Delta Galaxies "...launched a furious offensive. Their attack unbalanced the Comstar forces..." (pg 49 CWSB) allowing the Bears Alpha Galaxy to seize Spanac.

Comstar pinned much of the Bears forces in Spanac with artillery and probes but enough of Alpha Galaxy was made available to strike for Luk. At this stage, Comguard forces fell upon the Bear supply lines and those elements of Alpha Galaxy were redirected to protect the supplies. With the supply lines secured, Alpha Galaxy returned to the objective and pushed "...49 kilometers into the defenses of the 1st Comguard Army, making it to the outskirts of Luk." (pg 49 CWSB) but they could push no further with the forces to hand.

The Bear Khans ordered a retreat to Spanac, where both Beta and Delta Galaxies were garrisoning the city when "...the Il Khan declared an end to the Ghost Bears campaign." and "...the Bear Khans raised no objection." (pg 48 TSB)

Clan Jade Falcon were next to land with 3 Galaxies, with objectives being the major cities of Olalla and Humptulips on the Przeno Plain. Arrayed against them were the Comguards 3rd Army with the 11th Army in close support. The Falcons initial advance was so slow that both these armies had "...more than enough time to arrange their defenses." (pg 50 CWSB)

While the advance was slow, when the main action commenced at the Przeno River crossing it was a furious one. The approaches were finally secured by flanking moves of the Falcon Guard but "...the bridge collapsed into the Prenzo river, carrying 2 full trinaries of the 12th Cluster with it..." (pg 31 Jade Falcon Source Book "JFSB") and Comguard chose this moment to launch a counter attack causing heavy causalities.

The crossing eventually secured and the Falcons narrowly avoiding a trap at Olalla, the Falcons 89th and 94th Striker Clusters with the 1st Falcon Velites struck forward from the bridgeheads and "...the beleaguered Falcons re entered Olalla in triumph..." (pg 58 TSB) when Comstar launched a second counter attack.

With the Humptulips garrisons attacking the front lines at Olalla, the 1st and 4th Armies from the Ghost Bear zone dropped into the plain and drove for the Falcon bridgeheads across the river Przeno. Facing 4 Comguard armies the Jade Falcons pulled back from Olalla to hold the river crossings when "A lucky airstrike by Comguard fighters destroyed the Jade Falcons Galaxy's ammunition depot at Robyn's Crossing, and later analysis showed this to be the turning point of the campaign." (pg 32 JFSB)

Falling back to their dropships, Aiden Pryde would famously single handedly fend off the Comguards assault on the Dropships to allow his daughter to be recovered from her disabled mech and the rear guard to depart.

Clan Jade Falcon had secured Olalla briefly, and is the only other Clan (after the Nova Cats) noted to have "...inflicted significantly higher losses on the Com guards than they suffered in turn.." (pg 58 TSB)

The penultimate landing was Clan Diamond Shark. They had targeted the major cities of Kozice Prime and Urcunat (pg 141 ICSB) with three Galaxies. Their opponent were the Comguards 8th and 2nd armies, the 2nd having arrived from the Smoke Jaguar zone.

The Sharks advanced up the Kozice valley with 2 front line galaxies to the foothills overlooking Kozice Prime where the main Comguard force stood ready to defend. "The conflict swiftly bogged down into a day's long stalemate..." (pg 69 TSB).

Comguard forces attacked the Sharks supply lines in an attempt to break the deadlock where the fighting "...grew so fierce that only 2 Clan mechs survived..." (pg 69 TSB) of the Sharks 222nd Assault Cluster.

The struggle for the supply lines however had allowed Comguards 5th Army (that had fought at both the Smoke Jaguar and Steel Viper zones) to enter the battle and it was able to secure the Sharks rear lines.

The 3 Comguard armies advanced "...cutting off escape to the Clan's drop zone and catching the Sharks in a near unbreakable net." (pg 69 TSB) Now entered the much despised and hated freebirth Omega Galaxy who's efforts enabled the trueborn Alpha and Gamma Galaxies to escape the Comguard forces.

Low on ammunition and slowed by terrain, Alpha and Gamma Galaxies slowly withdrew towards the drop zones harried by the Comguard forces.

"Sensing their foes weakness, the Com Guards massed for an all out assault. Without a single order to do so, the freebirth soldiers of Omega Galaxy formed ranks and advanced to meet the Com Guards. The Com Guards cut them down almost to a man, but Omega's sacrifice allowed the trueborn warriors of Alpha and Gamma Galaxies to make a final dash for the safety of their dropships." (pg 69 TSB) An act of heroism that would have great repercussions for this Clan in later years.

Clan Diamond Shark had failed to take either of its objective and "...lost virtually its entire invasion force in the Clans most stunning defeat on Tukayyid." (pg 69 TSB)

Last to land was Clan Wolf, which is the focus of much of the canon of Tukayyid. Depending on the source Clan Wolf had 2 to 5 days delay prior to landing but the main point was that they had observed the Comguards tactics and rejigged their Omni Pods and tactics accordingly. The sacrifices of the other Clans would provide Clan Wolf with important information for their battle. (Divulged as one of Ulric's reasons to lose the bidding prior to the attack, pg 47 CWSB)

Attacking the minor cities of Brzo and Skupo (pg 47 CWSB) with 3 Galaxies, the Clan Wolf operation would have no impact on the outcome of the battle for Tukayyid. Primarily as due to Ulric's bidding tactics that he urged upon Natasha, Clan Wolf was not attacking any of the objective major cities that determined the outcome of the Tukayyid campaign. The 6 preceding Clans had already attacked the 12 objective cities and their battles were in varying stages of progress (defeat?). Clan Wolf had bid to lose the bidding so that the other Clans faced the Comguards primary defenses.

Notwithstanding, Clan Wolf was a formidable and much respected foe and as many of the objective cities were being contested when they dropped, the Comguards would engage Clan Wolf just as ferociously to tie them down in place.

The initial defense was conducted by Comguards 10th Army and the assault went well for Clan Wolf, "Hard pressed, the Comguards started to fall back..." (pg 50 CWSB) and a fresh defensive line developed 20km's from the cities.

Here Natasha Kerensky's own 13th Wolf Guards "The Wolf Spiders" conducted a flanking attack that dislodged the 10th Army and a heroic stand by Comguards 282nd Division held the Wolves long enough for Comguard to reform less than 5kms form the cities.

The 13th Wolf Guards would flank again this time running into a Comguard trap and only "... sheer stubbornness and an unwillingness to retreat saved the Wolf Spiders" (pg 51 CWSB).

Fierce fighting developed and the Comguards fell back, pursued by the Wolf Spiders. Suddenly Comguards 9th Army arrived, the 10th having held on just long enough for them to counterattack and Clan Wolf was denied encircling the cities.

In coming days the fighting would rage fiercely with much of the action focused on the Wolf Spiders central position. Eventually Clan Wolf threatened the encirclement of Skupo and rather than risk the destruction of many Comguard forces, Skupo was evacuated and Clan Wolf moved in.

Fighting now moved to the city of Brzo and Comguards 11th Army (from the Jade Falcon zone) was dispatched to reinforce the 9th and 10th, however it would arrive too late to halt the fall of the city to Clan Wolf.

Regrouping in the mountains, both sides prepared for the inevitable counter attack. Striking first Clan Wolf threw itself into the Comguard forces in a battle that was noted as "...what little ground was taken was won at a heavy price, Khan Garth Raddick was slain commanding Beta Galaxy" (pg 51 CWSB).

As Clan Wolf struggled in the mountains with the Comguard armies, the 13th Army was thrown together to join the fray. Before it could be committed to the battle, Focht and Ulric called an end to hostilities and the battle for Tukayyid was over.

With the fighting now done, we can examine the results.

There can be no doubt as to the actual result, the Clans clearly lost. The Il Khan bid 7 Clans against 12 Comguard armies to take and hold 12 of Tukayyids major cities and this was endorsed by the Clan's Grand Council. When Ulric determined that his "...troops had suffered too much to effectively fight on." (pg 46, CWSB) as per the agreement he called off the fighting. Two of the 12 cities had been seized and retaken by Comstar and 2 minor cities were all that the Clans held. The score was 12 to nil. It was a crushing victory for the Comguard albeit bought at a staggering price, 40% of their forces were dead and a further 42% were wounded (pg 52 CWSB)

I'll expand now on the Clan results, as it might be of benefit to many and it is the answer to some posts on another thread which is better addressed here than derailing that thread.

Every clanner knows that a Trial cannot take place unless both sides agree to the trial. This is a basic fact in canon of the rules of a Trial. We also know that Comstar never agreed to any individual Clan trials prior to the assault. There was no "set" defenders for the objectives, and Focht quite willingly shifted forces in and out of the Clan zones without any consequence. There were not 14 (2 per Clan) objectives for Comstar to defend, only 12.

What the Clans did agree between themselves was that they would assign results to help to determine the Il Clan (pg 47 CWSB). Comstar was not a party to the agreement. There were no individual Clan Trials for the Clans to win, lose or draw.

It is however possible to theory craft that individual Clans did issue a batchall as they dropped. There is no record I can find in canon of this occurring, and if this did happen only 5 Clans could have done so as "...suspended the ritual of zellbrigen and other formal rules governing Clan troops in battle, a decision made only by Clans Wolf and Jade Falcon." (pg 90 TSB)

Of the other 5 Clans, only Smoke Jaguar and Nova Cat fought solely against the forces in their zone, with the Ghost Bears, Steel Vipers and Diamond Sharks all being counterattacked by forces from other combat zones. Such a breach of the Trial rules (being that Comstar broke its hypothetical bid) never being highlighted by any Clan as a proof of their superiority. Four of these 5 Clans enabled to make this hypothetical batchall were defeated making Clan Ghost Bear the only plausible "true" individual Clan result other than defeat.

However none of the canon I have indicates that the Ghost Bears issued a batchall for their allocated target cities nor that Comstar broke its bid in the defense of these cities, making this hypothetical possibility a remote one in the extreme.

Yet we do know that after the battle there were results determined. This had to be a generous concession by Focht to the process Ulric instigated a week after the terms of Tukayyid had been agreed (pg 47 CWSB).

Yet Focht nonetheless completed the ceremonial requirement presumably with a diplomatic eye towards ensuring the Clans had no cause to dispute the outcome. It certainly would have been advantageous for Focht to ensure Ulric remained as Il Khan, he had spent many months with him during the early parts of the Invasion and knew him well. But most importantly, that the Clans had no cause to doubt the honor of Comstar and invalidate the deal.

After all, Focht would have known the Comstar was a spent force, but across the smoke of the battlefield he believed he had won by attacking the Clans logistics. It might be plausible that the Clans had only to resupply and they would be able to resume their offensive in some form. The risk for Focht to humiliate the Il Khan's agreement and by extension, the Clans, was significant.

With the glow of victory surrounding him, it cost Focht nothing to acknowledge the inter clan agreement after the event. All individual Clans results were awarded by Focht and Ulric post the battle as follows;

Clan Smoke Jaguar - Defeat, no comments made
Clan Steel Viper - Defeat, no comments made
Clan Nova Cat - Defeat, noted as inflicting more damage on Comguard than any other Clan
Clan Ghost Bear - Draw / Marginal Victory (sources vary)
Clan Jade Falcon - Draw, noted as inflicting significantly more damage than received
Clan Diamond Shark - Defeat, no comments made
Clan Wolf - Victory

That's the official canon for the Clans individual results, which in no way changes the outcome of the campaign, it was a complete failure for the Clans and a complete victory for Comstar. Nor does it change that no Clan fought an individual trial in canon sources and while some sources talk about "earned" results, all results were allocated post the battle.

For interest (tl:dr?) sake, I'll summarise the combatants.

1st Army: Took heavy damage fighting the Ghost bears early on, regrouped for the counter attack on the Flacons

2nd Army: Fought the Jaguars on day 1, with elements later fighting the Steel Vipers in a counterattack. Regrouped to defend objectives against the Diamond Sharks.

3rd Army: Defended Przeno and Olalla against Jade Falcon

4th Army: Initially fought the Ghost Bears, then led the counter attack on Jade Falcon at the Prezno River.

5th Army: Fought against Smoke Jaguar and elements fought in the Steel Viper counter attack. Re grouped to counter attack the Diamond Sharks and trap them. Arguably Comstars MVP.

6th Army: Defends objectives against Steel Vipers, sustains heavy damage and is defeated at Devils bath.

7th Army: Defends objectives against Nova Cats, sustains heavy damage. Noted as 30% strength after Nova Cats engagement (pg 48 CWSB) and plays no further part in the campaign.

8th Army: Defended objectives against Diamond Shark.

9th Army: Led first counter attack against Clan Wolf.

10th Army: Defended objectives against Clan Wolf.

11th Army: Defended objectives against Jade Falcon, regrouped to lead the second counterattack against Clan Wolf

12th Army: Elements defended Nova Cats objectives, other elements counter attacked Ghost Bears

13th Army: Noted as created from loose elements of other armies on Tukayyid, a composite 'ad hoc' formation. Was dispatched to Wolf Zone but never fought.

Smoke Jaguar: Attacked with circa 66% of the force other Clans utilised and fought 2 Comguard Armies on day 1. Broke the Comguard defenses and was advancing on objectives when ordered to retreat by Ulric. Subsequent confusion and splitting of forces resulted in the heaviest causalities any Clan suffered during the battle.

Steel Viper: Attacked against one Army, was counterattacked by 2 Armies from Smoke Jaguar zone. Retreated after both Khans were wounded, sustained the lowest mortality count of all Clans.

Nova Cat: Fought against 1 and a half Comguard Armies and was in the field longer than any other Clan. Inflicted more damage on Comguard than any other Clan.

Ghost Bear: Initial attacks against 1 Army, with 1 and a half further armies counter attacking during the campaign. Took one objective and nearly the second. Was ordered to withdraw by Ulric.

Jade Falcon: Initial attacks against 2 Comguard Armies, subsequently counter attacked by 2 more from the Ghost Bear zone. Took one objective, ostensibly forced to retreat due to a Comguard fighter's "lucky strike".

Diamond Shark: Initial attacks on 2 armies, one of which was relocated from the Smoke Jaguar zone. Counterattacked by a third army also from the Smoke Jaguar Zone. Suffered the most stunning defeat of the campaign.

Wolf: Landed last on planet and fought initially against 1 Comguard army. Counter attacked by a fresh army then took both objectives. Counter attacked by a third army from the Jade Falcon zone. Was the only Clan still fighting when the campaign was declared.

Caveats:

1) I have in several places assumed the reader has a fair knowledge of Clan culture / history (eg, Clan trial processes, Aidan Pryde story) and not quoted sources for space reasons.

2) I have relied primarily on 4 Source books. The Clan Wolf Source Book and the Tukayyid Scenario Book which give concise reports of the overall battles and detailed accounts for Clan Wolf. The Invading Clans Source Book and Jade Falcon Source Book for the other 6 Clans detailed accounts.

I acknowledge there are other sources that cover aspects of the battle, some of which paint different stories (eg, the Steel Vipers recount their retreat from Devils Bath very differently in the Warden Clan source book)

This OP is not to minimise or discredit other canon sources, but rather to provide the framework and allow others to submit canon examples as they desire for the benefit of all to review.

[Gyrok]

TL;DR.

This argument played out, in the entirety, can be found here: http://mwomercs.com/...the-smart-guys/

That way you can all skip the forthcoming nonsense...

The Wolves won their battle, ComStar called the fight, end of discussion about who planned well and who had goals that were for or against the Grand Council's goals. Ghost Bear was awarded a marginal victory, and Jade Falcon lost (calling a draw as you are evacuating on dropships is a loss...sorry...).

[Craig Steele]

Gyrok, on 14 May 2014 - 10:17 PM, said:

TL;DR.

This argument played out, in the entirety, can be found here: http://mwomercs.com/...the-smart-guys/

That way you can all skip the forthcoming nonsense...

The Wolves won their battle, ComStar called the fight, end of discussion about who planned well and who had goals that were for or against the Grand Council's goals. Ghost Bear was awarded a marginal victory, and Jade Falcon lost (calling a draw as you are evacuating on dropships is a loss...sorry...).

Maybe you can instead of dishing the post, read it and tell us all who the Wolves were fighting in their battle?

Who were the the declared opponents and What was the batchall?

Who if anyone broke the bid and called in additional forces?

Where your canon that Comstar called the fight off? Canon shows the only person who could have ceased the combat on the terms it was stopped was Ulric.

Once we know these minor details that are key to any Trials determination, we can more accurately determine who won and who lost "Clan Wolf's Battle"

PS, Jade Falcon got a Draw ergo they did not win ergo they lost is about as strong an argument as Jade Falcon got a Draw ergo they did not lose ergo they won. You'll need a better argument if you want to convince anyone on that story.

[CyclonerM]

Craig Steele, on 14 May 2014 - 10:26 PM, said:

PS, Jade Falcon got a Draw ergo they did not win ergo they lost is about as strong an argument as Jade Falcon got a Draw ergo they did not lose ergo they won. You'll need a better argument if you want to convince anyone on that story.

Just throwing in a thought. If you manage to capture a city but then you lose control of it and you are finally forced to evacuate your forces.. How is that a draw? A draw, agreeing to your terms, should have been keeping control of 1 city out of 2,quiaff?

[Craig Steele]

CyclonerM, on 15 May 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

Just throwing in a thought. If you manage to capture a city but then you lose control of it and you are finally forced to evacuate your forces.. How is that a draw? A draw, agreeing to your terms, should have been keeping control of 1 city out of 2,quiaff?

The answer to this is (in my simplistic terms) that there was no draw.

As the canon shows us, there was no trial that Jade Falcon fought to generate a "Draw result". All the individual Clan results were awarded based on post battle assesment / reflection.

Ulric and Focht agreed that was the right result, and that's what they awarded.

You could equally ask if Clan Wolf held two cities that had no bearing of the Trial, why were they noted as earning a Victory? Why not ask that seeing as Nova Cat destroyed more Comguard assets than anyone were they awarded a defeat?

The canon shows us there were no individual trials to establish what a result "should" have been under what parameters.

Edited by Craig Steele, 15 May 2014 - 05:54 AM.

[Gyrok]

Well, let me educate you...

Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht initially wanted a permanent truce line drawn at Tukayyid. Ulric Kerensky would agree to no such terms and offered a 1 year truce as a counter. The bidding eventually settled on a truce of 15 years. Ulric presented this to the Grand Council, and the Grand Council agreed to all the terms of the trial as negotiated by Ulric and Focht.

The IlKhan offered advice about loadouts and tactics to all the Clans, though it was sufficedly ignored from this point forward.

The bidding to land first became so ridiculous that some clans, (most notably Smoke Jaguar) bid as low as 2 galaxies of mechs with no support from Aerospace. Only 22% of the 2 galaxies Clan Smoke Jaguar bid to fight Tukayyid made it off planet.

Because of no Aerospace support, when Clan Nova Cat landed, they used a hover manuever to drop without heat dissipating dropships. However, during the attack their Alpha Galaxy command ship was taken out and lots of the invasion force was taken out before it landed. Clan Nova Cat did more damage to ComStar than anyone else, and they nearly destroyed Focht's secret command bunker by coincidence. Though they did not know how close to it they were, the pitched battle almost destroyed ComStar's command bunker. Only a Single Trinary of Beta Galaxy Omnimechs made it off world.

Clan Steel Viper bid 3 Galaxies, though 1 Galaxy was a second line unit (Zeta Galaxy), Clan Steel Viper completely erradicated the 6th Army of ComStar after being taunted into continuing an attack when they were breaking off to re-engage elsewhere. After ComStar sent in 2 fresh units to reinforce their position, the Steel Vipers withdrew, suffering the least casualties of any Clan on Tukayyid.

Clan Diamond Shark bid merely 6 clusters with Aerospace support. At the height of battle they were completely surrounded and had to mount a full frontal assault against the ComGuards to break the lines and get to the dropships. Omega Galaxy, (mostly freeborn second line units) actually sacrificed both clusters to ensure that the trueborn warriors could escape. This led to a liberal policy for freeborn warriors in the Diamond Shark Clan's touman.

Clan Ghost Bear bid 3 full Galaxies, and planned to take both cities at once. They managed to take their first city and were bombarded by Artillery heavily. They attacked their second city and just about had it captured, however, ComStar reinforced, and hit their supply lines at the same time, so Alpha Galaxy withdrew from the Assault on Luk to reinforce Spanac and their supply lines. Clan Ghost Bear held Spanac until the battle was called.

Clan Wolf dropped 3 galaxies against the 10th Army, ComStar's most elite unit. Wolf nearly managed to entirely encircle the first city, though there was some initial resistance from the 283rd ComGuards. The Wolves then hit the center of the ComGuard's line forcing the 278th down from a hilltop position.

There was a pitched Aerospace battle during this time as well, helping the ground forces by keeping the Aerospace fighters from ComStar from strafing the ground targets. ComStar's ground forces retreated in good order and the 10th Army regrouped outside Brzo and Skupo.

At this time the 13th Wolf Guards managed to slip by a fortified ComGuard position and get behind their lines causing disarray and chaos in the ranks of the ComGuards. The 282nd Division engaged the 13th Wolf Guards, and the the Wolf Spiders held position, rather than continue their advance, it nearly destroyed the 282nd Division to hold the line.

As ComStar expected a regroup from Clan Wolf they tried to refortify, and encountered an immediate offensive from the Wolves which caught them off guard and allowed the Wolf Spiders to nearly encircle Brzo. About this time, the 10th Army came out of their fortified trenches and the Wolf Spiders engaged in the most pitched battle of the entire Tukayyid campaign. The losses were heavy on both sides, and ComStar relented eventually after heavy sustained casualties. The near destruction of the 10th Army allowed the fresh 9th Army to arrive to reinforce.

At this point, the ComGuards went for the Supply lines once they determined the Wolves were being conservative with ammo and running heavy energy payloads of weapons. Though the wolves were able to easily fend off all attempts to sever the supply lines.

Will continue this post later...out of time for now...

Edited by Gyrok, 15 May 2014 - 08:00 AM.

[VanillaG]

Craig Steele, on 14 May 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

Every clanner knows that a Trial cannot take place unless both sides agree to the trial. This is a basic fact in canon of the rules of a Trial. We also know that Comstar never agreed to any individual Clan trials prior to the assault. There was no "set" defenders for the objectives, and Focht quite willingly shifted forces in and out of the Clan zones without any consequence. There were not 14 (2 per Clan) objectives for Comstar to defend, only 12.
...
Of the other 5 Clans, only Smoke Jaguar and Nova Cat fought solely against the forces in their zone, with the Ghost Bears, Steel Vipers and Diamond Sharks all being counterattacked by forces from other combat zones. Such a breach of the Trial rules (being that Comstar broke its hypothetical bid) never being highlighted by any Clan as a proof of their superiority. Four of these 5 Clans enabled to make this hypothetical batchall were defeated making Clan Ghost Bear the only plausible "true" individual Clan result other than defeat.

These two statements are contradictory. The winning condition for the trial was to control 7 cities at the end of hostilities. There were not individual batchalls because the trial was between Comstar and the Clans as whole. As part of the trial, Comstar stated that they would defend the targets with 12 Armies which served as a batchall for the trial. As you stated, while each clan bid for the rights to capture specific cities, these bids were not individual trials so Comstar was free to reposition forces as needed.

[1453 R]

Heh...Craig's put a lot of effort into trying to convince players that Ulric is the Clans' version of [the originator of Godwin's Law] and that Clan Wolf are a bunch of twisted, corrupted hooligans who don't deserve the Bloodnames assigned to their care (or the players who'll wear their tag). He also discards any/all sources of information save for sourcebooks, including Sarna, which means that useless plebes like myself who've only ever read the novels/supplemented with Sarna are ostensibly incapable of providing an argument otherwise. Given the wording and phraseology of his summary of Tukayyid, this is clearly another such attempt.

Allow me to put forth a simple answer for why Clan Wolf is still the only faction banner I'll wear, Craig: Ulric may not have acted as strongly and mercilessly as possible in the best interest of the Clans, but I see the man as having acted in the best interest of humanity as a whole, and that his (and Phelan's) Wolves are the only Clans pre-Jihad that tried to truly live up to Kerensky's ideals. Unless we're going to postulate that the man who withdrew eighty percent of his standing army from the Inner Sphere into self-imposed exile rather than watch them be used against the civilians he was sworn to protect would approve of bullf***ery like Turtle Bay carried out in his name?

Say what you will about his Clan-ness or un-Clan-ness - Ulric and those he trained were still the only Khans of their time even remotely concerned with protecting civilian populations and administering to their conquered worlds, rather than just charging blindly towards Terra like a charging bull in a medical ward.

[VanillaG]

Craig Steele, on 14 May 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

The Clans however, had a different plan.

Ulric decreed that the Clans would bid for targets and the timing of their attacks. He was not only dividing up his troop strength, but he was spreading it out over a timeline.

In effect, Ulric was planning to feed the Clans one by one into the Comguard defenses. (discerned from pg 47 CWSB) As the senior commander he would leave each Clan unsupported against the Comguard forces until the next Clan reached its drop time. This was his plan to defeat the Comguard and secure victory as he was sworn to do as Il Khan.

The Khans bid, worked out their targets and landing orders, then prepared for their expected victory.

Ulric had left each Clan to decide its own strategy and its individual preparations. He counselled them on the importance of logistics which he considered to be a primary factor in success for the upcoming battle but made no attempt to ensure the Khans were prepared as he thought they needed to be. Only with Clan Wolf did he ensure that Khan Natasha understood and prepared for additional logistic support. (pg 47 CWSB)

This is a bit of editorializing on your part. Ulric did not decree that the Clans would bid for targets because bidding in trials is a natural part of Clan culture. The IlKhan is responsible for overall trial, but each Clan was responsible for their part. Take the intial invasion for example. The IlKhan allowed the clans to bid for invasion corridors and set up the timing of the waves but it was up to each Clan to plan and fight the actual battles.

Here is the passage from Lost Destiny (Chapter 27) which describes how the bidding went down

Quote

Natasha leaned over on the right arm of her chair. The chair’s white leather padding set off the black of her jumpsuit as she drew her legs up. "So did you manage to hash out the troop assignments for the battle with ComStar?"
Ulric’s head came forward and his eyes opened with a flash of blue. "I told them that I believed twenty-five Galaxies would be an appropriate response to ComStar’s pledge of fifty regiments. That would be three Galaxies apiece, with the extra four going to the Wolf Clan by rights."
Natasha nodded in agreement. "Of course."
"That started a firestorm. I immediately bid away two of those extra Galaxies, but the others pressed for more concessions. Quite correctly, they perceived my desire to win the battle and they moved to blunt it. I have been forced to hold all Wolf Clan troops in reserve for the first five days of battle." Ulric’s grim smile sent a chill down Phelan’s spine. "They Wanted us out for two weeks, but I managed to whittle it down to five days."
"As if the battle for Tukayyid would last two weeks," Natasha scoffed.
"Though I would relish the landing, I think being able to pick out fights after the battle lines have solidified is not a bad thing." Ulric shook his head. "The problem is that those idiots then started bidding among themselves for the right to be the first to land. The Smoke Jaguars won that right, but I believe they sacrificed too much to do so. The others have nothing but contempt for ComStar because of its pacifistic message and they believe they will roll over Focht’s forces with ease. They have discounted the dangers of the ComStar air, armor, and artillery assets. I am fairly certain, in fact, that Star Colonels and Star Captains will bid among themselves and further dilute their strength."

[_Comrade_]

Does anyone noticed that the clans who achieved at least some victory or total victory were the clans that in the end would be the three most powerful clans; Clan Wolf, Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Ghost Bear

[Craig Steele]

VanillaG, on 15 May 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

These two statements are contradictory. The winning condition for the trial was to control 7 cities at the end of hostilities. There were not individual batchalls because the trial was between Comstar and the Clans as whole. As part of the trial, Comstar stated that they would defend the targets with 12 Armies which served as a batchall for the trial. As you stated, while each clan bid for the rights to capture specific cities, these bids were not individual trials so Comstar was free to reposition forces as needed.

Exactly, so if there was no individual trials for each Clan then there was no individual results. Ulric's plan of dropping Clans at individual times and his orders to 2 Clans to retreats gave Comstar the forces to shift around and make counter attacks.

For example, Ulric orders the Jaguars to retreat just as they break through the Comstar lines and are advancing on their targets. This 2 Armies then go on to defeat the Steel Vipers (who had just defeated the 6th Army and was pushing forward against no opposition) and then they conducted the encirclement and all but annihilation of the Diamond Sharks.

Had there been individual trials, those forces could not have counter attacked, had Ulric not ordered the retreat, they would be unlikely to have had the same effect on the battle in terms of time / forces.

VanillaG, on 15 May 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

This is a bit of editorializing on your part. Ulric did not decree that the Clans would bid for targets because bidding in trials is a natural part of Clan culture. The IlKhan is responsible for overall trial, but each Clan was responsible for their part. Take the intial invasion for example. The IlKhan allowed the clans to bid for invasion corridors and set up the timing of the waves but it was up to each Clan to plan and fight the actual battles.

Here is the passage from Lost Destiny (Chapter 27) which describes how the bidding went down

Ulric was the commander in chief, his job was to co ordinate the Clans to ensure the Grand Councils will was executed (being to succeed in the trial). There was no individual trials for each Clan until Ulric ordered it so. If you want to use the initial invasion and compare to Leo, at least he went back and forth to his Khans checking on their progress and making amendments as required for the overall attack.

Canon says that after calling his Kuralki, Ulric issued only 2 orders during the campaign, both were orders to retreat.

1453 R, on 15 May 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

Heh...Craig's put a lot of effort into trying to convince players that Ulric is the Clans' version of [the originator of Godwin's Law] and that Clan Wolf are a bunch of twisted, corrupted hooligans who don't deserve the Bloodnames assigned to their care (or the players who'll wear their tag). He also discards any/all sources of information save for sourcebooks, including Sarna, which means that useless plebes like myself who've only ever read the novels/supplemented with Sarna are ostensibly incapable of providing an argument otherwise. Given the wording and phraseology of his summary of Tukayyid, this is clearly another such attempt.

Allow me to put forth a simple answer for why Clan Wolf is still the only faction banner I'll wear, Craig: Ulric may not have acted as strongly and mercilessly as possible in the best interest of the Clans, but I see the man as having acted in the best interest of humanity as a whole, and that his (and Phelan's) Wolves are the only Clans pre-Jihad that tried to truly live up to Kerensky's ideals. Unless we're going to postulate that the man who withdrew eighty percent of his standing army from the Inner Sphere into self-imposed exile rather than watch them be used against the civilians he was sworn to protect would approve of bullf***ery like Turtle Bay carried out in his name?

Say what you will about his Clan-ness or un-Clan-ness - Ulric and those he trained were still the only Khans of their time even remotely concerned with protecting civilian populations and administering to their conquered worlds, rather than just charging blindly towards Terra like a charging bull in a medical ward.

You can read and emphasise whichever part suits you but I think I have been pretty fair to all the parties concerned with the battle. I discuss equally Fochts and Ulric's prepartions and tactics as the relevant Commanders and I relate each individual Clans struggle (admittably with some succinctness for space) with canon that demonstrates the flow of the battle. I also go back and summarise the Armies actions for the benefit of Comguard devotees.

If you don't like that the actual canon portrays a different story to the one you cherish that's OK, no one is saying you have to adhere to a canon world. But some people like Clans other than Clan Wolf and some people don't have a lot of canon resources and this thread I thought might be of benefit to everyone else.

PS, There are examples in canon of Clan Wolf warriors conducting their own atrocities. Saint John and Memmingen spring to mind but I am guessing you're OK with Clan Wolf misconduct ?

@ Gyrok, thanks for contributing. For the benefit of other readers following the thread, could you please advise your canon sources for your contributions. Thanks.

Edited by Craig Steele, 15 May 2014 - 04:18 PM.

[Gyrok]

Craig Steele, on 15 May 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Exactly, so if there was no individual trials for each Clan then there was no individual results. Ulric's plan of dropping Clans at individual times and his orders to 2 Clans to retreats gave Comstar the forces to shift around and make counter attacks.

For example, Ulric orders the Jaguars to retreat just as they break through the Comstar lines and are advancing on their targets. This 2 Armies then go on to defeat the Steel Vipers (who had just defeated the 6th Army and was pushing forward against no opposition) and then they conducted the encirclement and all but annihilation of the Diamond Sharks.

Had there been individual trials, those forces could not have counter attacked, had Ulric not ordered the retreat, they would be unlikely to have had the same effect on the battle in terms of time / forces.



Ulric was the commander in chief, his job was to co ordinate the Clans to ensure the Grand Councils will was executed (being to succeed in the trial). There was no individual trials for each Clan until Ulric ordered it so. If you want to use the initial invasion and compare to Leo, at least he went back and forth to his Khans checking on their progress and making amendments as required for the overall attack.

Canon says that after calling his Kuralki, Ulric issued only 2 orders during the campaign, both were orders to retreat.



You can read and emphasise whichever part suits you but I think I have been pretty fair to all the parties concerned with the battle. I discuss equally Fochts and Ulric's prepartions and tactics as the relevant Commanders and I relate each individual Clans struggle (admittably with some succinctness for space) with canon that demonstrates the flow of the battle. I also go back and summarise the Armies actions for the benefit of Comguard devotees.

If you don't like that the actual canon portrays a different story to the one you cherish that's OK, no one is saying you have to adhere to a canon world. But some people like Clans other than Clan Wolf and some people don't have a lot of canon resources and this thread I thought might be of benefit to everyone else.

PS, There are examples in canon of Clan Wolf warriors conducting their own atrocities. Saint John and Memmingen spring to mind but I am guessing you're OK with Clan Wolf misconduct ?

Craig Steele, on 15 May 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Exactly, so if there was no individual trials for each Clan then there was no individual results. Ulric's plan of dropping Clans at individual times and his orders to 2 Clans to retreats gave Comstar the forces to shift around and make counter attacks.

For example, Ulric orders the Jaguars to retreat just as they break through the Comstar lines and are advancing on their targets. This 2 Armies then go on to defeat the Steel Vipers (who had just defeated the 6th Army and was pushing forward against no opposition) and then they conducted the encirclement and all but annihilation of the Diamond Sharks.

Had there been individual trials, those forces could not have counter attacked, had Ulric not ordered the retreat, they would be unlikely to have had the same effect on the battle in terms of time / forces.



Ulric was the commander in chief, his job was to co ordinate the Clans to ensure the Grand Councils will was executed (being to succeed in the trial). There was no individual trials for each Clan until Ulric ordered it so. If you want to use the initial invasion and compare to Leo, at least he went back and forth to his Khans checking on their progress and making amendments as required for the overall attack.

Canon says that after calling his Kuralki, Ulric issued only 2 orders during the campaign, both were orders to retreat.



You can read and emphasise whichever part suits you but I think I have been pretty fair to all the parties concerned with the battle. I discuss equally Fochts and Ulric's prepartions and tactics as the relevant Commanders and I relate each individual Clans struggle (admittably with some succinctness for space) with canon that demonstrates the flow of the battle. I also go back and summarise the Armies actions for the benefit of Comguard devotees.

If you don't like that the actual canon portrays a different story to the one you cherish that's OK, no one is saying you have to adhere to a canon world. But some people like Clans other than Clan Wolf and some people don't have a lot of canon resources and this thread I thought might be of benefit to everyone else.

PS, There are examples in canon of Clan Wolf warriors conducting their own atrocities. Saint John and Memmingen spring to mind but I am guessing you're OK with Clan Wolf misconduct ?

The issue is MUCH of canon is open to interpretation, as you clearly show. Notice how you are nearly the only person here who holds your same opinions, even though many of us are QUITE familiar with the sources you cite?

[Silence Jin Mang]

I care to say that this is pure opinion. I think Ulric is a traitorous swine, and will no matter how you explain it. So uselessly raging at someone who thinks the same, a little more strongly than me, It is like pissing into the ocean. No matter how much you piss, he is still going to swim in it. As to why this argument must go on, I cease to care, but honestly all the canon stuff is already set in stone. As for the speculation, it is nothing but speculation and opinion. I think Ulric is a coward and a political rat, along with a traitor, but it is MY opinion, and held by ME. YOUR opinion is that Ulric is a good man, and was the closest we have come to a true clansmen. I will not ever try to sway you from that, we all have rights to opinions, but do not toot his horn by giving him more to argue. It is all a matter of OPINION, and quite frankly lets keep it that way and move to more IMPORTANT things. Like that sexy Summoner, or tactics and builds to dominate the inner sphere come Operation Revival.

[Craig Steele]

Gyrok, on 15 May 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

The issue is MUCH of canon is open to interpretation, as you clearly show. Notice how you are nearly the only person here who holds your same opinions, even though many of us are QUITE familiar with the sources you cite?

So wait, you weren't using any canon sources for your dialogue?

That's a shame, I was interested in some parts of your detail but if it's not anything of substance I'll just as easily read Sarna.

Anyone interested in the actual canon can keep looking I guess as you don't seem to have anything to add except to deny other people their own canon experience of their own Clan (or Comstar).

[Craig Steele]

Silence Jin Mang, on 15 May 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

I care to say that this is pure opinion. I think Ulric is a traitorous swine, and will no matter how you explain it. So uselessly raging at someone who thinks the same, a little more strongly than me, It is like pissing into the ocean. No matter how much you piss, he is still going to swim in it. As to why this argument must go on, I cease to care, but honestly all the canon stuff is already set in stone. As for the speculation, it is nothing but speculation and opinion. I think Ulric is a coward and a political rat, along with a traitor, but it is MY opinion, and held by ME. YOUR opinion is that Ulric is a good man, and was the closest we have come to a true clansmen. I will not ever try to sway you from that, we all have rights to opinions, but do not toot his horn by giving him more to argue. It is all a matter of OPINION, and quite frankly lets keep it that way and move to more IMPORTANT things. Like that sexy Summoner, or tactics and builds to dominate the inner sphere come Operation Revival.

Well far from an opinion.

Ulric swore (on his bloodright) that he would serve the will of the Grand Council and effect it's plans.

The Grand Council instructed him to defeat the Inner Spehere and capture Terra.

Ulric walked out the room and set about crippling his own army so that none of the Clans would be able to strike at Terra.

So unless you think swearing an oath on your bloodright is not a binding agreement, then canon quite clearly demonstrates he was a traitor to his oath and the Clans.

Now some people love him because they see him as more in benevolent, but that doesn't change he swore on his bloodoath to do something and then deliberatly went out of his way to not do it.

This is not meant to be an Ulric thread though, so while he is important to understand in his capacity as the Commander in Chief of one side, he is not the be all and end all of the Tukayyid campaign.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Sorry....this is a thread of self assured position and not much more. I have all of the novels and almost all of the sourcebooks and can read just fine. This already derailing into arguments not even after the first page of discussion. Less a resource and more an agenda driven POV.

Good times fellas.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Steele aren't you Jade falcon? sorry if i get this wrong.

[Silence Jin Mang]

No, but this is what you are trying to point out. I do not, and do not make me say it again, think of Ulric as a good man, he was a traitor. BUT, and this is a big but, IT IS MY OPINION. It is exactly what Lukoi said, as I was actually typing the exact same thing, and that is it. You re giving canon pieces with subtle pushes in your direction, not just pure straight up facts, and even then. History is written by the victor, so even everything we read is written by the "victors" and so is biased in a way, and it is quite clear. But, we must trust that these sources are clear and unbiased, as they are canonical. They are un-debatable and un-refutable. What we interpret in them is what YOU and I make of it, not what is the truth. If you wanted to truly let them make their mind up, you should have linked the codex`s and books in their entirety than just quote them. There is a huge media sharing folder on BT stuff and the likes of every book and codex and TRO that is canonical out there, point them there for Kerensky`s sake, for it is what is true and in the most un-opinionated form it will come in.

[Craig Steele]

Silence Jin Mang, on 15 May 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

No, but this is what you are trying to point out. I do not, and do not make me say it again, think of Ulric as a good man, he was a traitor. BUT, and this is a big but, IT IS MY OPINION. It is exactly what Lukoi said, as I was actually typing the exact same thing, and that is it. You re giving canon pieces with subtle pushes in your direction, not just pure straight up facts, and even then. History is written by the victor, so even everything we read is written by the "victors" and so is biased in a way, and it is quite clear. But, we must trust that these sources are clear and unbiased, as they are canonical. They are un-debatable and un-refutable. What we interpret in them is what YOU and I make of it, not what is the truth. If you wanted to truly let them make their mind up, you should have linked the codex`s and books in their entirety than just quote them. There is a huge media sharing folder on BT stuff and the likes of every book and codex and TRO that is canonical out there, point them there for Kerensky`s sake, for it is what is true and in the most un-opinionated form it will come in.

lol, quoting the canon is not pushing an agenda. Unless the agenda is for people to have access to the canon to form their own opinion.

There is nothing in the OP that is saying what my opinion is, it is the story of Tukayyid as demonstrated in canon. If people want to focus on their own Clan of favourite pin up boy thats their right, but the canon is still the canon.

[TekGnosis]

I've not been paying enough attention to the forums to really grok what's being argued about here; however I will note that the collection of source material in to a fine example of battle summary is greatly appreciated as a general resource. I've not perused those source books or read the novels in some years and the refresher on how Tukayyid went down per canon is a good reminder of how arrogant a 'superior' force can be. Take this lesson to the micro scale and remember it when piloting.