133 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Craig Steele, on 15 May 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

You can read and emphasise whichever part suits you but I think I have been pretty fair to all the parties concerned with the battle. I discuss equally Fochts and Ulric's prepartions and tactics as the relevant Commanders and I relate each individual Clans struggle (admittably with some succinctness for space) with canon that demonstrates the flow of the battle. I also go back and summarise the Armies actions for the benefit of Comguard devotees.

If you don't like that the actual canon portrays a different story to the one you cherish that's OK, no one is saying you have to adhere to a canon world. But some people like Clans other than Clan Wolf and some people don't have a lot of canon resources and this thread I thought might be of benefit to everyone else.

PS, There are examples in canon of Clan Wolf warriors conducting their own atrocities. Saint John and Memmingen spring to mind but I am guessing you're OK with Clan Wolf misconduct?

Heh...here’s the deal, at least insofar as I’m concerned.

Your definition of canon includes the sourcebooks, and the sourcebooks alone. Anyone who doesn’t own said sourcebooks needs to uninstall and quit soiling the purity of MWO with their plebeian casualness. Not even Sarna, which does its best to ensure the accuracy and canonicity of its subject matter to the point where they have articles describing canonicity and how it works in the BT ‘verse, works for you.

Me, though? I’ve been following the novels you hate since I was a child, and they comprise my canon. This is a fictional universe – who’s to say that my version of it is any less valid than yours? No, I don’t feel like anyone who flies a Falcon or Jaguar or Bear flag is inherently bad/wrong. I do harbor a very strong dislike for the Jaguars, but you know what. That’s my right, and as long as I don’t use it to unfairly discriminate against players on the forum, who’re you to tell me I’m wrong?

I’m not really okay with any misconduct under a banner someone wants me to wear. The Wolves come closest, but do notice that I’m still unaffiliated, quiaff? Here’s the thing, though: a Jaguar warrior gets a new pistol, goes out, shoots ten civilians in the head. His superior angrily asks him why he did that, and he says “I needed to test my new pistol.” The superior sighs, then agrees and lets the warrior off. After all, they were just worthless freebirth lower-castemen anyways. Always more where they came from.

A Wolf warrior gets a new pistol, goes out, shoots ten civilians in the head. Under Ulric, Natasha, Phelan? He doesn’t even get a chance to explain - he’s challenged to a Trial of Annihilation on the spot and disposed of.

Atrocities happen in war. Unfortunate but true. The real kicker is whether or not your society works to actively minimize them, and to repair the damage done when they do happen…or whether they don’t really give the remotest frog about any of it.

[Silence Jin Mang]

Quoting the canon, when EVERYONE who cares to read and post here has some sense of knowledge about what happened and probably has EVERY book and codex, is "pushing an agenda". Posting the canon not in its entirety is "pushing an agenda", it is one of the basis of politics to quote something with only the parts you want people to hear. Do not try to displace your intentions, they are clearer than the difference between white and black.

Tek, you should READ the posts before posting. Not just post to post and troll, it is not welcome and you should try to act more adult like. Lest I lose all respect for you and any kind of recognition of anything you post here. I do not slant any person, as everyone has the right to an opinion, but its clear when you are saying something for argument and not constructive debate.

[Craig Steele]

1453 R, on 15 May 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

Heh...here’s the deal, at least insofar as I’m concerned.

Your definition of canon includes the sourcebooks, and the sourcebooks alone. Anyone who doesn’t own said sourcebooks needs to uninstall and quit soiling the purity of MWO with their plebeian casualness. Not even Sarna, which does its best to ensure the accuracy and canonicity of its subject matter to the point where they have articles describing canonicity and how it works in the BT ‘verse, works for you.

Me, though? I’ve been following the novels you hate since I was a child, and they comprise my canon. This is a fictional universe – who’s to say that my version of it is any less valid than yours? No, I don’t feel like anyone who flies a Falcon or Jaguar or Bear flag is inherently bad/wrong. I do harbor a very strong dislike for the Jaguars, but you know what. That’s my right, and as long as I don’t use it to unfairly discriminate against players on the forum, who’re you to tell me I’m wrong?

I’m not really okay with any misconduct under a banner someone wants me to wear. The Wolves come closest, but do notice that I’m still unaffiliated, quiaff? Here’s the thing, though: a Jaguar warrior gets a new pistol, goes out, shoots ten civilians in the head. His superior angrily asks him why he did that, and he says “I needed to test my new pistol.” The superior sighs, then agrees and lets the warrior off. After all, they were just worthless freebirth lower-castemen anyways. Always more where they came from.

A Wolf warrior gets a new pistol, goes out, shoots ten civilians in the head. Under Ulric, Natasha, Phelan? He doesn’t even get a chance to explain - he’s challenged to a Trial of Annihilation on the spot and disposed of.

Atrocities happen in war. Unfortunate but true. The real kicker is whether or not your society works to actively minimize them, and to repair the damage done when they do happen…or whether they don’t really give the remotest frog about any of it.

So I also have several novels and they are canon. (I will admit my collection has been reduced by a few "loaners") I never never disabused any novel as a canon source. Sarna however is not canon. If you use Sarna and it has a canon source that you check out well thats a fine way to present an argument, but if you have a look at the Sarna for Tukayyid you will see many difference to the Canon so it's not a great resource for people who want to know the canon.

You are wrong from a canon viewpoint on your example of atrocities though.I have not seen anything about a Jag killing civilians in the manner you describe and the very idea of "wasting" Clan resources in such a manner would be strongly against the traditional Jaguar mindset.

Also, neither of the Wolf Commanders that committed the atrocities I mentioned were challenged and disposed of, at least not in Canon.

EDIT: Just for clarity / comparison on the atrocity thing. Perez the SJ Galaxy Commander who ordered the bombardment was challenged by a Star Colonel in his own command and lost his position (life? it's not clear in ICSB pg 56) but Raddick, the CW Star Colonel that razed 2 towns on Memmigen doesn't get a mention from the Khans (at least not in CWSB) and he retains his command and fights at Tukayyid. You're right of course that artocities do happen, but the canon suggests the SJ's were much more concerned with stamping it out than Clan Wolf (although imo it's not for the "right" reasons). An atrocity is an atrocity regardless of its scale and the 'punishment' should be the same. But here's two examples that are very different.

@ Silence Jin Mang, you do realise that you have not yet posted anything about the thread and all you have done is pick a fight over whether people should read it. You're more or less guilty of exactly what you are arguing, you're pushing people to agree with your opinion that they should go and get the canon themselves. Why don't you let other people form their own views yourself?

Edited by Craig Steele, 15 May 2014 - 06:10 PM.

[Craig Steele]

BLOOD WOLF, on 15 May 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

Steele aren't you Jade falcon? sorry if i get this wrong.

Nope, Snow Raven (CSR Mountbatton )

But given all the haters here abouts, I think I'm gunna fly under the Falcons colours just to give them something else to get excited about.

[Silence Jin Mang]

Um yes it is my opinion that unbiased canon is the best way to get unbiased canon. I don't think many people would disagree, unless you like being influenced by someone elses biased opinion. In which then are they really going to give two toots about the canon. You are only trying to dodge what I was saying by turning what I said on its head. Don't dig the hole deeper. I will say out right, I would rather have someone, who is uninformed about BT and its canon, read for a few hours and form their own opinion on the whole and complete truth, than read a half of the truth canon post that leads to a specific stigma towards a faction or event in BT. The difference between what I am doing and what you are, is I am being truthful and you are not.

And to slight the Falcons, just to incite argument, is an act I consider so downright bad that I`ve lost almost all respect I saw you in. Are you really so petty to insight rage just for the fun of it. I am a MechWarrior of Clan Jade Falcon, and I would refuse you even as a servant who cleans my boots, let alone an equal. If it were not for my lack of time, I would take you to the fields of battle and put your mouth where your skill is. Be wary of where you step, for my respect for you is almost lower than most inner sphere dezgra.

(You made me so mad I used a contraction, just so you are aware)

Edited by Silence Jin Mang, 15 May 2014 - 06:14 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Silence Jin Mang, on 15 May 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

Um yes it is my opinion that unbiased canon is the best way to get unbiased canon. I don't think many people would disagree, unless you like being influenced by someone elses biased opinion. In which then are they really going to give two toots about the canon. You are only trying to dodge what I was saying by turning what I said on its head. Don't dig the hole deeper. I will say out right, I would rather have someone, who is uninformed about BT and its canon, read for a few hours and form their own opinion on the whole and complete truth, than read a half of the truth canon post that leads to a specific stigma towards a faction or event in BT. The difference between what I am doing and what you are, is I am being truthful and you are not.

And to slight the Falcons, just to incite argument, is an act I consider so downright bad that I`ve lost almost all respect I saw you in. Are you really so petty to insight rage just for the fun of it. I am a MechWarrior of Clan Jade Falcon, and I would refuse you even as a servant who cleans my boots, let alone an equal. If it were not for my lack of time, I would take you to the fields of battle and put your mouth where your skill is. Be wary of where you step, for my respect for you is almost lower than most inner sphere dezgra.

LOL, you're hilarious. You're the only one inciting an argument here. You're the one offering nothing but attacks. But sure, claim the moral high ground. I'm sure it will serve you well.

A wiser man than me pointed out this

Sandpit, on 14 April 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

no it's just another example of
"I really have no rational reason or argument against anything they've said so I'll resort to attacking them to try and distract from their ideas and maybe even get them baited into attacking me so I can either derail the thread or get them moderated"

It's a pretty common tactic used around here

Sandpit, on 23 April 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

He's just like any other troll. The minute you point out something they can't dispute as "anecdotal" or some such drivel, they resort to name calling, passive aggressive tactics to bait you, etc. He's offering nothing more than the equivalent of "neener neener neener, I'm happy and you're not"

He's just the prime example of "i'm friendly to you and your ideas as long as they agree with mine but if you don't fall in line with my personal expectations and approval of the game I'm going to just attack you personally, be snide, and hope I can bait you into getting banned"

[Lukoi Banacek]

Implies he has the moral high ground by quoting Sandpit. Hilarity ensues

[BLOOD WOLF]

the funny thing is, just like our universe; The BT universe are home to such discussions.

[VanillaG]

Craig Steele, on 15 May 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Exactly, so if there was no individual trials for each Clan then there was no individual results. Ulric's plan of dropping Clans at individual times and his orders to 2 Clans to retreats gave Comstar the forces to shift around and make counter attacks.

For example, Ulric orders the Jaguars to retreat just as they break through the Comstar lines and are advancing on their targets. This 2 Armies then go on to defeat the Steel Vipers (who had just defeated the 6th Army and was pushing forward against no opposition) and then they conducted the encirclement and all but annihilation of the Diamond Sharks.

Had there been individual trials, those forces could not have counter attacked, had Ulric not ordered the retreat, they would be unlikely to have had the same effect on the battle in terms of time / forces.

You keep saying it was Ulric's plan to drop one at a time but I have shown you what that Khans of each of the Clans did that with how the bid to take part in the Trial. The Crusaders purposely tried to keep the Wolves out of the fight so they could capture the necessary 7 cities before the Wolves even dropped. Had the first 4 clans taken a held their objectives, there would not have been any reason to have the other clans even drop. The fact that they did not take the threat of Comstar seriously they dramatically under bid and caused the cascade of failure that you describe.

Craig Steele, on 15 May 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Ulric was the commander in chief, his job was to co ordinate the Clans to ensure the Grand Councils will was executed (being to succeed in the trial). There was no individual trials for each Clan until Ulric ordered it so. If you want to use the initial invasion and compare to Leo, at least he went back and forth to his Khans checking on their progress and making amendments as required for the overall attack.

Canon says that after calling his Kuralki, Ulric issued only 2 orders during the campaign, both were orders to retreat.

I don't think anyone has a good idea of what the IlKhan's exact powers are. From almost every description of Trials that I have read, the Khan sets the parameters and objectives for the Trial but each participant is responsible for the planning and execution of the plan. The whole bidding process is an opportunity for commanders to show their prowess in accomplishing an objective with the minimum amount of force. Had the IlKhan put limitations on the bidding that would have been against how all previous Trials have been conducted.

As to your assertion that Leo Showers traveling to the various Clans to check up on them during the invasion can you provide some sources for this. Everything that I have read stated that Showers put himself on the Clan Wolf command ship to ensure that the Wolfs did not do anything to slow down the invasion. if he was on that ship I am not sure how would have gone around to the other clans to check up on them.

[Silence Jin Mang]

Oh so now you are calling me out about being political and trolly to derail this, when I am in the middle of looking for the media-sharing site with the folder, AND I even said there is a site for this. You are the disgraceful one to think that as a TRUE clan warrior I would rather the HALF TRUTH be told of the CLANS defeat, MY DEFEAT, than the FULL TRUTH. You are a slanderous pig who does not even deserve an ounce of the respect I had given you, yet I give it to you as a fellow clansman, but now I see you do not deserve even that. I have been debating about the topic of this post, which is canon, and unless I have been under a rock about what canon is, I`m sure that me saying I want the FULL canon out over the PARTIAL you gave is on topic. Plus, I AGREE WITH YOUR OPINION, so why would I be doing this because I don't agree with you? What logic are you trying to use here? Are you sane in the head, or do I need to fill it with something other than air. You are actually making me angry in more than just my clan persona. You are speaking all these great things, but you use it in all the wrong ways. I came here to say that a partial truth is not the whole truth and impossible to form a unique opinion off of what you want them to see, not throw insults at you. I have said what I debated, and it was relevant to what was in the OP. What you are debating now is just a slanderous political game at this point.

[Craig Steele]

VanillaG, on 15 May 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

You keep saying it was Ulric's plan to drop one at a time but I have shown you what that Khans of each of the Clans did that with how the bid to take part in the Trial. The Crusaders purposely tried to keep the Wolves out of the fight so they could capture the necessary 7 cities before the Wolves even dropped. Had the first 4 clans taken a held their objectives, there would not have been any reason to have the other clans even drop. The fact that they did not take the threat of Comstar seriously they dramatically under bid and caused the cascade of failure that you describe.


I don't think anyone has a good idea of what the IlKhan's exact powers are. From almost every description of Trials that I have read, the Khan sets the parameters and objectives for the Trial but each participant is responsible for the planning and execution of the plan. The whole bidding process is an opportunity for commanders to show their prowess in accomplishing an objective with the minimum amount of force. Had the IlKhan put limitations on the bidding that would have been against how all previous Trials have been conducted.

As to your assertion that Leo Showers traveling to the various Clans to check up on them during the invasion can you provide some sources for this. Everything that I have read stated that Showers put himself on the Clan Wolf command ship to ensure that the Wolfs did not do anything to slow down the invasion. if he was on that ship I am not sure how would have gone around to the other clans to check up on them.

Ulric though was the CiC. His juniour officers (the Khans in this case) might well submit their ideas but it was Ulrics Campaign, Ulric's task, whatever actions took place took place under his orders. The Trial was between Comstar and the Clans as a whole. Ulric was the one who negotiated the terms, not the Khans. (Indeed, at least one GB Khan is down as strongly objecting to the whole idea)

The capture of the cities was not the criteria for the cessation of the battle. They were the framework around which the battle would be fought and would assist in determining the victor. Focht's recordings states the battle would end only when one commander or the other decided his forces could fight no more. As long both sides were prepared to keep going, the battle did not end. Now I'll grant you from a Clan viewpoint, they never considered Comstar retaking a city. Their view was that Comstar would be a walkover and all they had to do was bash them and secure the 12 objective cities. Big mistake in hindsight. But the battle was negotiated to be the destruction of one force or the other.

As for the underbidding, well there are many examples in canon where Khans and Il Khans have dictated an objective could not be bid or they have set specific forces that they considered essential for the missions success. Ulric did none of this. What canon shows us in one clear example is that Ulric considered logistics to be a fundamental issue for success and yet he placed no requirements on this key aspect of his strategy on any other Clan bar Clan Wolf.

There is a complete definition of the Il Khans role on pg 118 of the Warriors of Keresky Source book (one source) but for space only, it's described as a "War Leader" who "enjoys wide ranging powers in military matters, but not absolute". Basically he is the co ordinator of all the Clans military resources in enacting the Grand Councils directions, but like the Grand Council he cannot interfere with a Clans internal goverance.

Think of it kind of like Eisenhower in WW2. The French, Canadian, British and American governments (the Grand Council) said "here's the troops, now go take the beaches". The difference is Ulric (CiC) took the view that the French, British, Canadian and Americans could decide for themselves which beach they wanted and when they would attack.

As for Leo, no I said he went back and forth but I did not mean in a physical sense (although he may of?). He communicated with his Khans many times (sources across JF, GB and SJ) to check on their progress and make amendments (eg, Rasalhague bidding). By contrast, canon doesn't give any indication of Ulric discussing anything further or issuing any other orders to his Khans bar to retreat (twice). I didn't intend to compare the two Il Khans here but as it was brought up, I expanded.

[Craig Steele]

Silence Jin Mang, on 15 May 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

Oh so now you are calling me out about being political and trolly to derail this, when I am in the middle of looking for the media-sharing site with the folder, AND I even said there is a site for this. You are the disgraceful one to think that as a TRUE clan warrior I would rather the HALF TRUTH be told of the CLANS defeat, MY DEFEAT, than the FULL TRUTH. You are a slanderous pig who does not even deserve an ounce of the respect I had given you, yet I give it to you as a fellow clansman, but now I see you do not deserve even that. I have been debating about the topic of this post, which is canon, and unless I have been under a rock about what canon is, I`m sure that me saying I want the FULL canon out over the PARTIAL you gave is on topic. Plus, I AGREE WITH YOUR OPINION, so why would I be doing this because I don't agree with you? What logic are you trying to use here? Are you sane in the head, or do I need to fill it with something other than air. You are actually making me angry in more than just my clan persona. You are speaking all these great things, but you use it in all the wrong ways. I came here to say that a partial truth is not the whole truth and impossible to form a unique opinion off of what you want them to see, not throw insults at you. I have said what I debated, and it was relevant to what was in the OP. What you are debating now is just a slanderous political game at this point.

Wow, so firstly all I did was highlight that you have not contributed any canon to the thread and only countered your view that people should be looking it up themselves. Interesting that you are so passionate about this resource that you haven't posted the link yourself?

Is that calling you out? You could take that view. I call it stating the obvious. If you'd like to get back on topic and share canon with others about the battle for Tukayyid, that would be great.

Also, maybe you could tell me what my opinion is that you agree with? Pretty sure I don't express one in the OP for you to agree with so it would be interesting to see your deduction.

What I did do though is outline the battle as it occured in canon and used canon quotes to demonstrate. I also noted that I relied mainly on 4 source books in this instance and invited people to submit their own canon sources. I even highlighted that I am aware of other canon sources that paint different pictures than the one I summarised.

How much fairer do I need to be?

Haters gunna hate I guess.

[Silence Jin Mang]

Let me give an example of what I display and how what I say is relevant. (Why I am not posting the link is I do not support torrenting a whole ton of books I went and had to search and buy in hard copy). But if you must know how to find the plethora of different ones, just search Battletech tro/codex/sourcebook pdf, and you`ll find websites to buy them from or websites with people sharing them.)

Prepare for my well known rant about real life examples, and I will draw the lines outs so even people as dimwitted as you can understand. Say I want to run for a government position, I have specific policies I want to pass and the exact details. This bill, as this is only an example, is trying to build a stadium. It is for the local college which still uses a high school football field, that is my argument for supporting the build and wanting to get it passed. Now everyone is like, yay new football field for their town team and means more seats. But what I left out was the fact that I was being paid to support this and when it gets installed, I get a big sum from the college, while only tax payers money paid for the field. I just gave them the truth, plain and simple, no lies. I left stuff out, but they didn't bother to ask so I didn't answer because it benefited me and got me elected. I just left the other half out, no harm right. Wrong, what you are doing is the same, maybe not on a money scale or political scale, but it is the same corruption. You are playing on half truths to prevent people from forming different opinions as yourself. You are leading them down a path that leads them to form an opinion based on what you want them to believe, not their own.

Secondly, it does not have to be present to be apparent, I am not even going to grace you with answering this obvious question. And then if its pointing out the obvious, then I was pointing out the obvious as well. Hell it is not even obvious, it is so blatant a blind person could not miss it.

The outline is incomplete, explanation is above.

And I am a hater, and if I am going to hate, then why do you keep defending yourself? Are you saying that there is truth to what I say, Dezgra, because you only make it more apparent every post trying to de-rail from my original idea. The fact a half posted canon piece is only telling half the story and so one can not make an unbiased opinion from that (which is your intent, must I go quote it, or have you forgot it already). Stop doing the stuff you claim I do, you only are digging a deeper whole.

[Craig Steele]

Silence Jin Mang, on 15 May 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

Let me give an example of what I display and how what I say is relevant. (Why I am not posting the link is I do not support torrenting a whole ton of books I went and had to search and buy in hard copy). But if you must know how to find the plethora of different ones, just search Battletech tro/codex/sourcebook pdf, and you`ll find websites to buy them from or websites with people sharing them.)

Prepare for my well known rant about real life examples, and I will draw the lines outs so even people as dimwitted as you can understand. Say I want to run for a government position, I have specific policies I want to pass and the exact details. This bill, as this is only an example, is trying to build a stadium. It is for the local college which still uses a high school football field, that is my argument for supporting the build and wanting to get it passed. Now everyone is like, yay new football field for their town team and means more seats. But what I left out was the fact that I was being paid to support this and when it gets installed, I get a big sum from the college, while only tax payers money paid for the field. I just gave them the truth, plain and simple, no lies. I left stuff out, but they didn't bother to ask so I didn't answer because it benefited me and got me elected. I just left the other half out, no harm right. Wrong, what you are doing is the same, maybe not on a money scale or political scale, but it is the same corruption. You are playing on half truths to prevent people from forming different opinions as yourself. You are leading them down a path that leads them to form an opinion based on what you want them to believe, not their own.

Secondly, it does not have to be present to be apparent, I am not even going to grace you with answering this obvious question. And then if its pointing out the obvious, then I was pointing out the obvious as well. Hell it is not even obvious, it is so blatant a blind person could not miss it.

The outline is incomplete, explanation is above.

And I am a hater, and if I am going to hate, then why do you keep defending yourself? Are you saying that there is truth to what I say, Dezgra, because you only make it more apparent every post trying to de-rail from my original idea. The fact a half posted canon piece is only telling half the story and so one can not make an unbiased opinion from that (which is your intent, must I go quote it, or have you forgot it already). Stop doing the stuff you claim I do, you only are digging a deeper whole.

LOL, and still not one shred of canon. Just arguing for the sake of arguing. There's no truth in what you say, you're just hating for the sake of hating. You still haven't even linked this source you talk about as the messiah for everyones benefit. You're the one all worked up, (so worked up you're making contractions apparently?)

There's no "half truths" in what I have quoted. No "half truth" in the OP. Everything is straight from the source books I have quoted (maybe I made a typo somewhere, IDK?, but I don't think so)

EDIT: I also just realised, you didn't even answer the direct question of which opinion of mine you agreed with? Why are you dodging this simple question?

Tell you what, unless you want to post on topic I'll not respond to your posts anymore so that you can have the last say. That way maybe other people have a chance to review the actual canon and not your baseless tirade.

Can't be more gracious than that can I?

Good luck to you.

Edited by Craig Steele, 15 May 2014 - 10:33 PM.

[Silence Jin Mang]

Gotta love when I win. Regardless, you blatantly ignore all the truths I have put out. Anyways, if it is not every piece of canon on the battle or event then it is only half true. I can now add one more troll to the list of trolls I have overcome through simple logic and their own faults. But yes, discuss the half of the battle of Tukkayid, it may eventually sway someone, and may Kerensky guide them to a better opinion.

[Craig Steele]

For those who missed it and have spent 2 pages arguing about nothing, here's a reminder.

Craig Steele, on 14 May 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

Caveats:

1) I have in several places assumed the reader has a fair knowledge of Clan culture / history (eg, Clan trial processes, Aidan Pryde story) and not quoted sources for space reasons.

2) I have relied primarily on 4 Source books. The Clan Wolf Source Book and the Tukayyid Scenario Book which give concise reports of the overall battles and detailed accounts for Clan Wolf. The Invading Clans Source Book and Jade Falcon Source Book for the other 6 Clans detailed accounts.

I acknowledge there are other sources that cover aspects of the battle, some of which paint different stories (eg, the Steel Vipers recount their retreat from Devils Bath very differently in the Warden Clan source book)

This OP is not to minimise or discredit other canon sources, but rather to provide the framework and allow others to submit canon examples as they desire for the benefit of all to review.

Actually, let me narrow that down a little

Craig Steele, on 14 May 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

Caveats:

I acknowledge there are other sources that cover aspects of the battle, some of which paint different stories (eg, the Steel Vipers recount their retreat from Devils Bath very differently in the Warden Clan source book)

This OP is not to minimise or discredit other canon sources, but rather to provide the framework and allow others to submit canon examples as they desire for the benefit of all to review.

Edited by Craig Steele, 15 May 2014 - 11:19 PM.

[Edward Mattlov]

Craig Steele, on 15 May 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

Nope, Snow Raven (CSR Mountbatton )

But given all the haters here abouts, I think I'm gunna fly under the Falcons colours just to give them something else to get excited about.

Go "fly" with the Coyotes back in the Kerensky Cluster where you belong.

[_Comrade_]

Edward Mattlov, on 15 May 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

Go "fly" with the Coyotes back in the Kerensky Cluster where you belong.

Never understood why so many on MWO like the Steele name so much., what is his legacy exactly that he or she is so worthy of having so many MWO warriors follow in his path?? I would rather have a bloodname that has some kind of legacy behind it. Hazen, Kerensky, Jorgensson or Osis are names im going for. Of course getting rid of my malicious merc sounding grimwill name and just going with "Will (bloodname)" perhaps

If anything under the leadership of Khan Robin Steele the coyotes lost their strength when they had a temper tantrum about losing a place in the operation revival and decided to take that anger out on the snow ravens, so don't know why the name is so poplar, maybe its just the name Steele

Edited by Grimwill, 15 May 2014 - 11:31 PM.

[Gyrok]

Craig Steele, on 15 May 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

So wait, you weren't using any canon sources for your dialogue?

That's a shame, I was interested in some parts of your detail but if it's not anything of substance I'll just as easily read Sarna.

Anyone interested in the actual canon can keep looking I guess as you don't seem to have anything to add except to deny other people their own canon experience of their own Clan (or Comstar).

Yes I was,,,will finish later...

[CyclonerM]

Grimwill, on 15 May 2014 - 11:26 PM, said:

Never understood why so many on MWO like the Steele name so much., what is his legacy exactly that he or she is so worthy of having so many MWO warriors follow in his path?? I would rather have a bloodname that has some kind of legacy behind it. Hazen, Kerensky, Jorgensson or Osis are names im going for. Of course getting rid of my malicious merc sounding grimwill name and just going with "Will (bloodname)" perhaps

Not every single bloodnamed warrior was a Kerensky, Pryde, Jorgensson or Osis. It is nice to see different and less famous Bloodnames around.