45 replies to this topic

[GMAK]

WIth this heating, I don't get it.

[Kaptain]

pinpoint damage.

[Inflatable Fish]

also, less exposure - with a laser, you have to face the target for the duration of the beam. with a PPC, you can shoot and twist immediately after.

[Kaptain]

ECM counter.

[GMAK]

Kaptain, on 20 May 2014 - 05:32 AM, said:

pinpoint damage.

What is this?

Kaptain, on 20 May 2014 - 05:38 AM, said:

ECM counter.

What?

[GMAK]

Inflatable Fish, on 20 May 2014 - 05:35 AM, said:

also, less exposure - with a laser, you have to face the target for the duration of the beam. with a PPC, you can shoot and twist immediately after.

Good point but not worth the price of the heat.

[Mott]

Personal preference really. Many prefer the tiny bit of extra damage, but mostly it's the pinpoint accuracy and concentrated damage the PPC offers.

I am a huge PPC fan because i'm good at managing my heat. However, i'm very **** about my accuracy. I count my hits and misses based on when my cross-hairs turn red.

Recently, i've been noticing my PPC accuracy dropping to 50% each match, (and my damage as well) in my profile stats, despite my PPCs hitting roughly 75% of the time, based on the cross-hairs turning red.

Because of this, I've switched over to lasers almost exclusively. I don't know if the PPCs missing is a game-wide bug or just my own personal issue... but i can't justify the extra weight & heat of the PPCs when i can't even trust they're hitting my enemy when my red cross-hairs say they are.

Edited by Mott, 20 May 2014 - 05:48 AM.

[Inflatable Fish]

Mak54291, on 20 May 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

What is this?

What?

pinpoint damage - the whole 10 dmg packet from a PPC is delivered to the same location, while the damage from a laser is spread between any components the beam touches within its duration.

the ECM counter is a special feature of the PPC: any target it hits has its ECM shut down for a few seconds.

Mak54291, on 20 May 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

Good point but not worth the price of the heat.

I disagree. especially if you're playing a fast mech or one with jump jets, the lower exposure time increases your potential manoeuverability drastically.

[Koniving]

Mak54291, on 20 May 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

WIth this heating, I don't get it.

Pinpoint damage, superior range, more damage, instant damage, compatible with cold weapons like autocannons.

In the source material, it was actually 8 damage and 8 heat for the LL, 5 tons. (450 meters).
PPC was 10 damage, 10 heat, 7 tons. (540 meters).
ER LL was 8 damage and 12 heat. (570 meters).
ER PPC was 10 damage(Inner sphere; 15 damage Clan), 15 heat. (690 meters).

However, in past games Lasers worked like MWO's autocannons; mostly front loaded damage. Which was deemed overpowered when you compare instant damage even when a combination of 30 would shut you down. (Actually it wasn't that bad in MW3 where 30 heat was used as the limit. However, MW4 used 60 as its limit which defeated the whole purpose of the heat system. MWO uses between 40 minimum and 88.56 maximum for the Inner Sphere before any map factors are thrown in).

PGI changed autocannons from their lore-rooted damage over time mechanic to instant front-loaded damage and turned lasers into beam weapons. The result has made most PPCs and autocannons compatible where in the past they were very incompatible.
So instead of the best damaging weapons having limited range and incredible heat preventing boating, it's now "okay heat" of the PPC combined with "ice cold" autocannons. Now we have our new gameplay mechanics abusing meta and somehow this doesn't seem to click with the lead designer as a problem.

Edited by Koniving, 21 May 2014 - 06:52 PM.

[GMAK]

Koniving, on 20 May 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

Pinpoint damage, superior range, more damage, instant damage, compatible with cold weapons like autocannons.

In the source material, it was actually 8 damage and 9 heat for the LL, 5 tons. (450 meters).
PPC was 10 damage, 10 heat, 7 tons. (540 meters).
ER LL was 8 damage and 12 heat. (570 meters).
ER PPC was 10 damage(Inner sphere; 15 damage Clan), 15 heat. (690 meters).

However, in past games Lasers worked like MWO's autocannons; mostly front loaded damage. Which was deemed overpowered when you compare instant damage even when a combination of 30 would shut you down. (Actually it wasn't that bad in MW3 where 30 heat was used as the limit. However, MW4 used 60 as its limit which defeated the whole purpose of the heat system. MWO uses between 40 minimum and 88.56 maximum for the Inner Sphere before any map factors are thrown in).

PGI changed autocannons from their lore-rooted damage over time mechanic to instant front-loaded damage and turned lasers into beam weapons. The result has made most PPCs and autocannons compatible where in the past they were very incompatible.
So instead of the best damaging weapons having limited range and incredible heat preventing boating, it's now "okay heat" of the PPC combined with "ice cold" autocannons. Now we have our new gameplay mechanics abusing meta and somehow this doesn't seem to click with the lead designer as a problem.

2 ppc does 40 of heat here. I think the ppc make sense with your numbers, not mine.

[Koniving]

Mak54291, on 20 May 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

Pinpoint Damage
What is this?

ECM
What?

Pinpoint damage. It's instant damage in exactly one spot. A large laser fires over 1 second, and does 9 damage spread out over one second.
If a large laser does damage every 0.1 seconds, it'd deal 0.9 damage each time.
0.9 + 0.9 + 0.9 + 0.9 + 0.9 + 0.9 + 0.9 + 0.9 + 0.9 + 0.9.
or 0.9 * 10 = one Large Laser.
So lets say I spread my laser on your left leg, left torso, left torso, left arm, the air, left arm, side torso, center torso, the other side torso, right arm, and air

I did 0.9 damage to your left leg. 0.9 damage to your left torso twice (so 0.18), 0.9 damage to your left arm, 0 damage to the air, 0.9 damage to your left torso, 0.9 to your CT, 0.9 to your RT, 0.9 to your right arm, and then the air again.

That's 0.9 leg.
2.7 damage to your left torso.
0.9 damage to your left arm.
0.9 damage to your chest.
0.9 damage to your right torso.
0.9 damage to your right arm.
That means I did 1.8 damage to the air.

In total I did 7.2 damage, and lost 1.8 damage to the air.

Now if I fired a PPC and missed, I did 10 damage to the air. Basically a waste. But if I fired and hit you in the left torso, I did 10 damage to your left torso. That's it, done.

--------

ECM. This makes mechs invisible to sensors.
Being hit by a PPC disables the ECM for several seconds.

[Wintersdark]

It's not even "personal preference". Sure, you can use either, and you can be successful with either, but PPC's are inarguably superior to Large Lasers. When you're new, it may not be so noticable, but the ability to fire then twist away immediately is critical. As well, being able to always deliver 100% of your damage where you want it is invaluable - against any player of average skill or higher, it's impossible to get a full laser burn on a single component under normal circumstances. This means that a good chunk of the damage the laser does is effectively wasted. Sure, it makes your stats look shiny, but when you're spreading damage across target locations only a small amount of damage is actually useful. This pushes the Damage per Heat ratio ever further in favour of the PPC, negating the only advantage the Large Laser has.

Of course, if you can't afford the tonnage for the PPC, or already have two, then Large Lasers can be valuable - they're not bad weapons at all, they're just not as good as PPC's.

[Koniving]

Mak54291, on 20 May 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

2 ppc does 40 of heat here. I think the ppc make sense with your numbers, not mine.

2 PPC does 20 points of heat. It may reach 40% of your threshold, in which case you have 10 Double Heat Sinks or 20 Single Heat Sinks (50 points of heat allowed).

Your threshold (maximum heat allowed) increases with more heatsinks.

The more you have, the less it 'impacts' you in heat.

[Redshift2k5]

While someone is still learning, a large laser is probably better- lower leat, lighter, no need to lead target(hitscan), no minimum effective range, ability to adjust for a slight miss by dragging the beam ot the target.

A PPC, meanwhile, is hotter, heavier, has a 90m dead zone, and if you miss then you do no damage at all and no ability to adjust- made more difficult by the fact that a PPC requires you to lead the target to strike since it has a projectile travel speed.

Why use a PPC? It does all the damage in one hit to one location instead of spreading it across your target. You can fire then get back into cover or turn your body, unlike a LL. If your aim allows you to make the shot, consistently (and your pilot skill/tatice/mech build can maintain a safe distance outside 90m), then a PPC has many advantages.

Large lasers are still a great weapon, and certain mechs/builds can't handle the PPC's weight, heat, or slot requirements, or simply want a weapon that synergizes better with the rest of their build. I have an orion with an AC10, one PPC, and two Large Lasers... Wouldn't really work with 3 PPCs.

Edited by Redshift2k5, 20 May 2014 - 06:21 AM.

[Koniving]

For example on the numbers and why you're getting 40% heat when the PPC only generates 10 heat each and the large laser only generates 7 heat:

All heat percentages generated are assuming you have nothing unlocked for the mech.

A mech with 10 single heatsinks (built into the 255 engine; must be a 250 engine or greater to have 10 built in) and a PPC. Notice the cooling efficiency? 40%? That's bad. Threshold (max allowed heat) is 40. Firing 1 PPC from this rig generates 25% of maximum heat.

The same mech with 19 SHS. 10 built in and 9 added.
Notice the cooling efficiency on the left? 76%? That's pretty good. Threshold is 49. Firing 1 PPC from this rig generates 20.4% of maximum heat.

The same mech with 10 DHS. 80% efficiency. That's a bit better. Threshold is 50. Firing 1 PPC from this rig generates 20% of maximum heat.

The same mech with 19 DHS. 130% efficiency. This mech will NEVER get hot, ever, even on the hottest maps. Threshold is 62.6. Firing 1 PPC from this rig generates 15.97% of maximum heat, but is back to zero before you can fire again (assuming you're not moving; otherwise it goes back to engine heat).

Each one has a PPC.

This link (Smurfy) has a list of all aspects of the game. It is preset to show you energy weapons. You can see heat generated, damage, etc. LL produces 7 heat (down from 8 heat I see). LPL does 8.0 (down from 8.5) heat. PPC does 10 heat. ER LL does 8.5 heat. ER PPC does 15 heat.

Edited by Koniving, 21 May 2014 - 06:51 PM.

[Modo44]

Plain large lasers are far superior to PPCs as far as cooling goes, even better if you have slots to use the saved 2 tons for heatsinks. You can also adjust your aim while firing which helps a lot. From this novice standpoint, the PPC is pretty bad.

As you get better and meet better players, you start running into problems. Laser damage occurs over time, so the enemy can spread it by moving/twisting/jumping while being fired at (good luck destroying a light mech fast). Thus, the effective damage (damage to the desired location) becomes much lower than what weapon stats say. In addition, you must look at your target for an entire second to pump full damage in. This makes you an easy target as people you face start having good aim and faster reflexes.

At some point, it makes sense to switch to the hot weapon. You pair it with cool ACs or Gauss, and/or use multiple double heatsinks to negate part of the heat issue. Better aim allows you to be as effective at blowing **** up as with large lasers while firing less often, negating another part of the heat issue. You are suddenly doing fine on the heat front despite the math. In addition, since you can now drop/twist/run immediately after firing, you yourself are eating fewer shots and spreading incoming damage better.

[Bront]

Redshift2k5, on 20 May 2014 - 06:02 AM, said:

While someone is still learning, a large laser is probably better- lower leat

So PPCs are too leat for noobs? (I agree with your statement btw)

If you're a good shot with PPCs, PPCs are better (as long as you're not super close). If you're not, LLs will do more damage because damage can be corrected.

LLs are slightly more reliable in some situations as well. Anti-light, and under 90m. the heat is a bonus.

[GunnyKintaro 01]

Good Read!

[Redshift2k5]

A new player, with no experience, no mech skills, poorer aim, and less money to spend on upgrades, yeah, LLs a easier to learn. Lower risk, lower reward. PPCs' heat is high enough to make them riskier, and they have potential for higher rewards if you can consistently land your shots.

[Takashi Uchida]

I only use PPCs in jumpsniper builds (and occasionally in light snipers). I like to take full advantage of minimal exposure time to the enemies. PPCx2 AC5x2 is usually all I run on my CTF-3D these days, and the numbers I do with it are head and shoulders above most of the laser-centric builds I run. My aim is good but not superb, so if I'm going with a heavy damage pinpoint weapon I'm usually "all in" (dual Gauss, AC10+ PPCs, etc). I won't mix PPCs with lasers.

I still end up playing with lasers a lot because, well because I have fun doing it. I'm actually enjoying the Large Pulse Laser a brawling weapon. If you put two together it's like a quirky AC/20. No cockpit shake and people aren't really intimidated by it. Great for melting off the legs of lights. Heat isn't too bad either.

Large lasers are less helpful in a brawl because of their beam duration. It's harder to pair them with a AC10/LBX/AC20 for close range combat because you have to "look" at the enemy for a significant period of time. If you must use them up close in conjunction with a big AC, you might find it helpful to stagger the firing so the cockpit shake of the AC "covers" you briefly while you are "looking at" your opponent.

Personally, my best uses for the Large Laser (or it's ER equivalent) are paired up on small sniper mechs (ie. RVN-3L, CDA-3M) or as secondary weapons for long range fire support (Jagers, BLR-1D). A weird build I like playing with is 3 ERLL + an AC10, + a fast engine on my Ilya. It's a strange combination but cool to mess around with. Large Lasers tend to be good weapons for a Stalker, which has a favorable frontal profile anyway.

Edited by Takashi Uchida, 20 May 2014 - 07:00 PM.