45 replies to this topic

[Tereva]

Takashi Uchida, on 20 May 2014 - 06:58 PM, said:

I'm actually enjoying the Large Pulse Laser a brawling weapon.

This !
I am actually surprised by how few Large Pulse Laser you can see around. I usually find myself fighting between 0 and 500m so the PPC extra range is not really an advantage.

[n r g]

Mak54291, on 20 May 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

WIth this heating, I don't get it.

did they increase the heat with this last patch? 5/20/2014? i dont see it in the patch notes

[Alaskan Nobody]

Tereva, on 20 May 2014 - 10:11 PM, said:

This !
I am actually surprised by how few Large Pulse Laser you can see around. I usually find myself fighting between 0 and 500m so the PPC extra range is not really an advantage.

The on paper stats are worse - so no one theorycrafts them into their builds

No one theorycrafts them in - no one tests them

No one tests them, no one notices that it is doing ~twice the damage per pulse the basic large does.

[Satan n stuff]

There is some advantage in the hitscan nature of lasers, in that is it's impossible to actively dodge the whole shot while PPC shots can be dodged by fast mechs, but the burn time of the lasers allows the target to torso twist or take cover to mitigate damage whereas a PPC will deal all it's damage in one hit and unless you see it coming there is no way to avoid damage.
Blindside someone with a PPC and they'll take full damage and might not even see you if you're being sneaky, do the same with lasers and they will likely torso twist and spot you before you can hide.
On the upside some players won't notice at all if they're being shot at with lasers until they see the actual beams, so steady aim definitely helps here, but don't expect that to work on the more skilled players unless they're very distracted at the time. Of course if they are distracted they might not respond to PPC hits either, depending on what the distraction is.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mak54291, on 20 May 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

Good point but not worth the price of the heat.

Opinion sir. Yours does not have to match everyone else's.

[Grimmrog]

Shar Wolf, on 21 May 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

The on paper stats are worse - so no one theorycrafts them into their builds

No one theorycrafts them in - no one tests them

No one tests them, no one notices that it is doing ~twice the damage per pulse the basic large does.

They are just crap, + 2 additional tonnage for what?
Their opportunatey costs compared to LL, ER LL , or PPC are not worth it. Their niche is too small. Show em a laodout that is good with thee lasers. Either you have tonnage problems, or massive heat problems. And then you are stuck in a quite low niche. you are better taking 2 LL than 2 LPL.

It's sad. I am a huge laser fan. I really would love to use Pulselasers more often, the sound is great ^^. But especially the LPL is not worth the tonnage/range. The MPL is is already a borderline of beeing to short ranged. And you can do the same better with LL's since bith builds will in cqc reach heat issues. But the tonnage saved by LL can be put into Heatsinks granting you more firepower at all. Would love to see PL being the same range. then at leats the tonnage tradeoff may be worth the better pinpoint damage.
SPL is a good substitute for SL, since the extratonnage is for the higher pinpoint without any range penalty.

So all you can make intersting is a back hugging light with SPL, since even MPL are a killign your heatscale.

Edited by Grimmrog, 22 May 2014 - 03:22 AM.

[ShinVector]

Grimmrog, on 22 May 2014 - 03:19 AM, said:

They are just crap, + 2 additional tonnage for what?
Their opportunatey costs compared to LL, ER LL , or PPC are not worth it. Their niche is too small. Show em a laodout that is good with thee lasers. Either you have tonnage problems, or massive heat problems. And then you are stuck in a quite low niche. you are better taking 2 LL than 2 LPL.

It's sad. I am a huge laser fan. I really would love to use Pulselasers more often, the sound is great ^^. But especially the LPL is not worth the tonnage/range. The MPL is is already a borderline of beeing to short ranged. And you can do the same better with LL's since bith builds will in cqc reach heat issues. But the tonnage saved by LL can be put into Heatsinks granting you more firepower at all. Would love to see PL being the same range. then at leats the tonnage tradeoff may be worth the better pinpoint damage.
SPL is a good substitute for SL, since the extratonnage is for the higher pinpoint without any range penalty.

So all you can make intersting is a back hugging light with SPL, since even MPL are a killign your heatscale.

You only need 2 PPC and JJ to wreak havoc on laser mechs..

[crossflip]

I believe ppcs do full damage even if one point gets through armor. So if you have 9 armor, then the ppc does 9 to your armor and the one point that gets in does the full weapon's damage to internal structure, effectively dealing 19 damage. Idk if this is intended or not or even if it's still in effect, but it's a pretty good advantage.

[Grimmrog]

ShinVector, on 22 May 2014 - 03:40 AM, said:

You only need 2 PPC and JJ to wreak havoc on laser mechs..

thats why PL sucks, they even sacrifice more important range and all you get as LPL is a crippled non pinpoint PPK,

anways my "theory crafted" PL mechs would be all lights (ok cicada is medium:P ) with ECM to sneak up and stay in possible dead ranges.
but I guess an annoying 6Medium laser light is still mor eof a threat than a 3 MLP or 2xMLP 1LPL.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f9fe4f3049638f8
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...82e069b75bd6390
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ea9f3f8f2c59c56

If we could choose mechs after knowing the map, then we could find some proper builds specified for river city as example. But atm you will in the majority of the maps just be screwed with PL.

like a 9 MPL hunchback ^^

Edited by Grimmrog, 22 May 2014 - 04:26 AM.

[wanderer]

What PPC bolts do vs. lasers is very noticeable when they go internal- because all of the damage is in a single hit, it means that even if a fractional part of the shot penetrates armor, it does it's full (10) damage to any internal component it crits, while a laser hit will only inflict potential critical hits with whatever damage tics hit internal structure. This means a single PPC bolt that barely gets through armor can, in fact wreck up to 3 different components inside- while the single tic of laser fire will only inflict a minimal amount of ouch to internal components, leaving them dinged but fully functional.

It's an advantage they share with most autocannons. FLD is also more effective in crippling a target, not just killing it.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Grimmrog, on 22 May 2014 - 03:19 AM, said:

They are just crap, + 2 additional tonnage for what?

For what?

How does about 1.7 damage every 0.1 seconds rather than 0.9 damage in the same time sound?

[xMEPHISTOx]

Oh, but it is, it really really is. ')

Mak54291, on 20 May 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

Good point but not worth the price of the heat.

Oh, but it is, it really really is. ')

ll eNeRgY ll, on 21 May 2014 - 01:00 AM, said:

did they increase the heat with this last patch? 5/20/2014? i dont see it in the patch notes

No, at least not that I have been able to notice.

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 22 May 2014 - 04:21 PM.

[Mycrus]

Not just skill but a function of hit registration and ping

Lazor allow me to find the red reticule

[Petard]

Absolutely loving dual LPL's on a couple of my builds, they are definitely underestimated, using the range module for em as too, you can scare people at 500m as well, no problems...

Now to get back to the discussion, even though they have some significant disadvantages on paper, PPC's are unquestionably superior to any of the lasers, in terms of damage delivered, so long as targets are kept within effective range, and assuming you are hitting what you aim at.

For a new player still refining his aiming skills, LLasers may well be a better weapon option, no question.

Good Hunting

Edited by Petard, 22 May 2014 - 09:37 PM.

[Mahws]

Mott, on 20 May 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

Personal preference really. Many prefer the tiny bit of extra damage, but mostly it's the pinpoint accuracy and concentrated damage the PPC offers.

I am a huge PPC fan because i'm good at managing my heat. However, i'm very **** about my accuracy. I count my hits and misses based on when my cross-hairs turn red.

Recently, i've been noticing my PPC accuracy dropping to 50% each match, (and my damage as well) in my profile stats, despite my PPCs hitting roughly 75% of the time, based on the cross-hairs turning red.

Because of this, I've switched over to lasers almost exclusively. I don't know if the PPCs missing is a game-wide bug or just my own personal issue... but i can't justify the extra weight & heat of the PPCs when i can't even trust they're hitting my enemy when my red cross-hairs say they are.

Just on the off chance, but you are aware that PPC do have a minimum range of 90m under which they do 0 damage right? The cross hair will light up red, but 0 damage will be dealt. Could be the cause of your problem if not.

[JonahGrimm]

Finally - a topic I feel like I can contribute to, at least in some small way!

What I can tell you, OP, is this: Lasers vs. PPCs are a choice in syle, skill, and function. All of the comments here are correct, as far as they go, and that means all comments. Both sides of this issue have their point.

It's what makes MWO a great game, I think. The fact that you can pick two systems that are empirically close and recognize that they'll completely change your playstyle is an indicator of good, close balance (which is a relic of the tabletop - and nearly forty years of playtesting).

What it really comes down to is how well you can use the weapon, and what you give up (or gain!) in doing so.

I am nearly an exclusively light pilot, who is branching out into mediums so that drops with my preferred group are a little more flexible. In this niche, PPCs really aren't all that exciting or useful. When every ton and critical slot counts, the choice between one point of damage and two tons, heat vs. precision - it all adds up. Generally, I find that I'm far more effective with two medium lasers - which are equivalent in heat and damage, if not range - than I am with a PPC, and can fit more damage to my chassis when I learn to use beam weapons effectively.

Everyone's mileage varies. Personaly, I prefer the LL and LPL to the PPC in most cases, even on larger mechs - but that has to do with my playstyle.

By the way - to answer an unasked question;

When choosing 'pulse' or 'not pulse' for a laser, the real advantage to pulse weaponry is time. You need to stay on your target less time to deliver equivalent damage. THAT is the real advantage to the guns - trading heat for less requirement to be precise.

Quote

Just on the off chance, but you are aware that PPC do have a minimum range of 90m under which they do 0 damage right? The cross hair will light up red, but 0 damage will be dealt. Could be the cause of your problem if not.

... ALSO, you get a red 'hit' indicator when firing beyond effective range.. when the PPC does no damage, and the ball-o-plasma still connects. (You'll get this with ACs too, and it'll even cause 'ping' noises and screen shake on your target.. even if you're really not hurting them in the slightest).

... There is damage falloff beyond a PPC's listed effective range that can seriously skew your numbers. It's only vaguely linear, as well, with a startling amount of lost damage outside of 540m.

... and even ERPPCs, which can hit within 90, do so with damage reduction.

Just some other factors that may be affecting your numbers.

[Bigbacon]

why is it that the ERppc can damage under 90m while the other one can't?

[JonahGrimm]

Intrinsic to the design. The ERPPC has no minimum range, and a longer max ... but does reduced damage under 90m or over its ... max. Whatever that is, as I don't use it often enough to remember.

Think of it as 'turbocharged', and you're getting close - it's a PPC with a LOT of power being shoved through it. It's also inefficient and hot. I have a LCT-3m with 10 DHS, an ERPPC and /no other guns/, and it overheats after five to seven shots on most maps, and can overheat fairly rapidly even on the cold ones.

I think it's safe to say that even the LPL doesn't touch the ERPPC for inefficiency. Beware in using 'em, too - you really can't shoot them on Terra THermia or Caustic. (I mean.. you can, but when you overheat, I'm going to melt your face. )

Edited by JonahGrimm, 23 May 2014 - 05:43 AM.

[wanderer]

ER PPC's in the original game are a "second-generation" weapon. They trade 50% more heat for better reach and no minimum range.

And Jonah is in error, ERPPC's do NOT inflict reduced damage inside 90m, it's full from 0 to their normal long range (and then falls off as everything else does to eventually 0 at 2x long for energy weapons). Between no minimum and the better range, it makes them an excellent single weapon for many light snipers, like the Spider.

[JonahGrimm]

... hrrm. Then the question needs to be put to the veterans - in an exceptionally bad match with my 3M locust, I made a hill and was torn apart after firing three times, doing no criticals, against fresh mechs.

How did that ERPPC do 26 damage?

The last shot was within 90m, the others were ~120 or so.

(... before you ask, I made a corner, ran face-first into a building, then had my leg shot off by a Battlemaster who I /swear/ had to be giggling. It was a really, really bad round. )

Serious question - My assumption was that the last shot simply didn't do full damage due to range.